american tourist mistaken for a prostitute and insulted by CESTUR

[windeguy]

I guess the police in Jarabacoa must be afraid of the skinny dark Haitiana Ho that frequents the park as she still solicits many guys night and day.

So far, the War on Whores is being battled primarily in tourist areas. (I know that some consider Jarabacoa to be somewhat of a tourist spot, but not like the north coast).

Remember, this war is being fought to reduce the negative reputation of the DR with respect to prostitution. Jarabacoa is most likely a don't care in this battle.

 

[ohmmmm]

Actually it is on whores. Most happen to be young women. CESTUR is apparently being overly aggressive.

I wonder how you would feel about it if it were your daughter, client or ? Only white women are allowed to walk around at night? This is ridiculous.

 

[cavok]

My Dominican wife is considerably younger than I. We have been to Cabarete Beach 3 times in the last two weeks. The last time was at Los Gringos just 3 nights ago. We walked right past Cestur as we entered the the beach and Cestur walked right past where we were sitting on the beach having dinner. No problem whatsoever. I have noticed that those of African descent with very dark skin are often mistaken for Hatians. Mistakes will be made.

 

[BermudaRum]

I guess the police in Jarabacoa must be afraid of the skinny dark Haitiana Ho that frequents the park as she still solicits many guys night and day.

It's probably more to do with that they don't want to lose their cut from her....

 

[si225]

Entrusting the police with violating the law to advance a countries' reputation has the potential to generate the opposite result. Detention and harassment of people outside the target group is an inevitable result at the hands of a low paid and minimally trained police force. This collateral damage may further international concerns of racial profiling, or of female tourists in general, feeling unsafe - thereby reducing the countries’ tourist income.

The Dominican Republic already makes it illegal to promote prostitution. The image is in large part created by internet postings which can (on occasion) have the effect of promotion. This enduring digital footprint will not cease merely due to the occasional public crackdown when the underlying issue (i.e. prostitution) is still prevalent.

There are existing laws on the books that authorities can legally enforce. These laws could certainly be enforced locally as well as in several other countries, and would have a much more profound effect on the actual problem (i.e. reputation).

Police fail to detain women in prostitution zones for different reasons. The most common motivations are laziness, monetary extortion, sexual extortion, personal (i.e. they know them, are friends with their family etc.), and, on occasion, fear (of them, their novio etc.)

Finally, encouraging improper police conduct by their handlers will cement the corrupt culture inside the department. There are more targeted ways of dealing with this issue (and I don’t mean to address them all here), but encouraging a lack of respect for the law and citizens’ constitutional rights, at the government level, is unwise and unsafe.

 

[playacaribe2]

The pattern of enforcement against prostitution and/or human trafficking has been increasing year over year.

From the closings in Sosua, then to Bavaro....and now it has expanded to the interior (Santiago).

The DR is currently receiving money and resources from other countries and various international agencies to address the problem.....and the term prostitution is being supplanted more and more with human trafficking.

They have even conducted a reverse sting of sorts on the North Coast regarding a citizen (US law enforcement) renting a villa for a party and inquiring about procuring women for the party. That snared more than a couple of Dominicans willing to supply the women.

Given the above, the next logical law enforcement step will likely be when foreigners are caught for procurement or other related offenses and then deported back to their respective countries to face justice there. Given the progression of enforcement in the DR, it is not a matter of if......but when.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

 

[bob saunders]

So far, the War on Whores is being battled primarily in tourist areas. (I know that some consider Jarabacoa to be somewhat of a tourist spot, but not like the north coast).

Remember, this war is being fought to reduce the negative reputation of the DR with respect to prostitution. Jarabacoa is most likely a don't care in this battle.

You are probably correct lots of ladies of the evening here but for the most part they are less aggressive. 20 more PN hwre with several new trucks and they are on the streets alot two by two.

 

[bob saunders]

It's probably more to do with that they don't want to lose their cut from her....

The way she looks and acts would result in a very small cut.

 

[Derfish]

The pattern of enforcement against prostitution and/or human trafficking has been increasing year over year.

From the closings in Sosua, then to Bavaro....and now it has expanded to the interior (Santiago).

The DR is currently receiving money and resources from other countries and various international agencies to address the problem.....and the term prostitution is being supplanted more and more with human trafficking.

They have even conducted a reverse sting of sorts on the North Coast regarding a citizen (US law enforcement) renting a villa for a party and inquiring about procuring women for the party. That snared more than a couple of Dominicans willing to supply the women.

Given the above, the next logical law enforcement step will likely be when foreigners are caught for procurement or other related offenses and then deported back to their respective countries to face justice there. Given the progression of enforcement in the DR, it is not a matter of if......but when.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

It is like many other laws, it is sure a shame that the big countries get away with bullying the small countries into what laws they are allowed and what not.!

Words have meanings and if the consensus is that they want to change the meaning of human trafficking and include prostitution it sure dilutes the meaning of that word. Human trafficking used to mean slavery, buying and selling humans as one does horse and cows, cats and dogs. Now it also includes a lady accepting money for an hour of her time in bed! Damn!
Der Fish

 

[windeguy]

I wonder how you would feel about it if it were your daughter, client or ? Only white women are allowed to walk around at night? This is ridiculous.

Myself, I never fathered any children.

If it were a client, we would help them as much as possible and we would very clearly make our feelings known about an errors that CESTUR might make. In other words, my wife would rip them a new one.

As I mentioned, I suspect that such mistakes will be called out by those higher up in CESTUR and they will adjust their tactics for keeping whores off of Cabarete beach.

I could be wrong.

 

[windeguy]

The pattern of enforcement against prostitution and/or human trafficking has been increasing year over year.

From the closings in Sosua, then to Bavaro....and now it has expanded to the interior (Santiago).

The DR is currently receiving money and resources from other countries and various international agencies to address the problem.....and the term prostitution is being supplanted more and more with human trafficking.

They have even conducted a reverse sting of sorts on the North Coast regarding a citizen (US law enforcement) renting a villa for a party and inquiring about procuring women for the party. That snared more than a couple of Dominicans willing to supply the women.

Given the above, the next logical law enforcement step will likely be when foreigners are caught for procurement or other related offenses and then deported back to their respective countries to face justice there. Given the progression of enforcement in the DR, it is not a matter of if......but when.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

You and I have both noticed this ramp up over time. Others have turned a blind eye to it, or they say it will go back to "normal" the day after tomorrow. They may be correct, but I think what we are seeing now is the new "normal".

 

[windeguy]

My Dominican wife is considerably younger than I. We have been to Cabarete Beach 3 times in the last two weeks. The last time was at Los Gringos just 3 nights ago. We walked right past Cestur as we entered the the beach and Cestur walked right past where we were sitting on the beach having dinner. No problem whatsoever. I have noticed that those of African descent with very dark skin are often mistaken for Hatians. Mistakes will be made.

cavok, What I understand are the targets of CESTUR are women not accompanied by a man. Hence no second look for you both.

Of course when there is a single women or groups of women, they are going to profile them to see if they fit the hooker look.

 

[windeguy]

Entrusting the police with violating the law to advance a countries' reputation has the potential to generate the opposite result. Detention and harassment of people outside the target group is an inevitable result at the hands of a low paid and minimally trained police force. This collateral damage may further international concerns of racial profiling, or of female tourists in general, feeling unsafe - thereby reducing the countries? tourist income.

At this time, those that lead the DR are making the decision that reducing the appearance of prostitution is worth the risk.

The Dominican Republic already makes it illegal to promote prostitution. The image is in large part created by internet postings which can (on occasion) have the effect of promotion. This enduring digital footprint will not cease merely due to the occasional public crackdown when the underlying issue (i.e. prostitution) is still prevalent.

In this digital age, word gets around fast when things change. The new digital image is do not come here if you are a whore monger.

There are existing laws on the books that authorities can legally enforce. These laws could certainly be enforced locally as well as in several other countries, and would have a much more profound effect on the actual problem (i.e. reputation).

I have no idea how the DR can affect how other countries treat a problem in the DR.

Police fail to detain women in prostitution zones for different reasons. The most common motivations are laziness, monetary extortion, sexual extortion, personal (i.e. they know them, are friends with their family etc.), and, on occasion, fear (of them, their novio etc.)

Finally, encouraging improper police conduct by their handlers will cement the corrupt culture inside the department. There are more targeted ways of dealing with this issue (and I don?t mean to address them all here), but encouraging a lack of respect for the law and citizens? constitutional rights, at the government level, is unwise and unsafe.

I have no idea what legal precedent they use to stop suspected hookers. Perhaps DR1's legal team can comment on this regards to its legality.

 

[cobraboy]

The way she looks and acts would result in a very small cut.

I always thought her to be mentally ill.

 

[cobraboy]

It is like many other laws, it is sure a shame that the big countries get away with bullying the small countries into what laws they are allowed and what not.!

Words have meanings and if the consensus is that they want to change the meaning of human trafficking and include prostitution it sure dilutes the meaning of that word. Human trafficking used to mean slavery, buying and selling humans as one does horse and cows, cats and dogs. Now it also includes a lady accepting money for an hour of her time in bed! Damn!
Der Fish

Political Correctness is like the proverbial camel's nose under the tent.

What starts out innocently, well-intentioned and noble at first becomes a monster quickly.

 

[cavok]

cavok, What I understand are the targets of CESTUR are women not accompanied by a man. Hence no second look for you both.

Of course when there is a single women or groups of women, they are going to profile them to see if they fit the hooker look.

Exactly. Just pointing out that, in general, accompanied Dominican girls are not going to have any problem going to the restaurants and bars on Cabarete Beach. Quite a few of my friends have taken their Dominican girlfriends to Cabarete w/o any problem.

 

[Lobo Tropical]

Yes! We have no bananas

The problem with Banana Republics.
Absence of intelligence enforcing laws.
Persons of any gender and ethnicity should have the right to walk in public spaces unmolested.
Seems to me that black single female tourists are better off to avoid the DR.

 

[si225]

At this time, those that lead the DR are making the decision that reducing the appearance of prostitution is worth the risk.

Agreed. But if the use of force is merely at the whim of a few individuals, this could change rapidly or be redirected somewhere else for any reason or no reason at all.

In this digital age, word gets around fast when things change. The new digital image is do not come here if you are a whore monger.

Nothing has changed. Just moved. The digital footprint reflects this (in spite of the posts related to the crackdowns).

I have no idea how the DR can affect how other countries treat a problem in the DR.

The point was simply that the DR has legal ways to enforce its reputational issue – which is against those promoting it online (most of whom travel to the DR). For those that don’t (e.g. owners of a site for example), few want to be declared a criminal in a foreign country for many reasons including risk of enforcement of criminal warrants (which is beyond the scope to discuss here).

Stopping promotion doesn’t address the physical presence of unaccompanied women in certain areas. This is purely a Dominican issue and would need a change of law (or illegal use of force, as is the case now). This would mean either a) making prostitution illegal (would include the beach) or b) requiring business to make reasonable attempts to exclude prostitutes (like most US States for example), without making prostitution illegal (i.e. would not include the beach).

I have no idea what legal precedent they use to stop suspected hookers. Perhaps DR1's legal team can comment on this regards to its legality.

Legal Precedent? The police lock the girls up with no charges. The girls can pay anywhere between 1,000 pesos and 3,000 pesos to leave a crowded cell with no water and no bathroom, or the girls can make sexual arrangements with individual officers to not be targeted (which I have personally overheard at least twice completely out in the open). They are usually released within 48 hours when not charged (which only happens if there is an actual crime committed).

However, if there is actually a DR Legal scholar who actually knows the law, then I would genuinely be fascinated to know what law trumps the DR Constitution and allows detention of single women in certain restricted areas (like the beach for example).

DR Const. Art. 40, Section 6, provides that "All persons deprived of their liberty, without cause or without the legal formalities or outside the cases set forth by the laws, shall be immediately released at their own request or of any person;" (Here constitutional rights cost money - please pardon the sarcasm and bold font)

DR Const. Art. 40, Section 15, provides that “No one will be obligated to do what the law does not require or prevented from doing what the law does not prohibit. The law is equal for all: it can only order what is just and useful for the community and it cannot prohibit more than what is prejudicial to it;”

 

[cobraboy]

At this time, those that lead the DR are making the decision that reducing the appearance of prostitution is worth the risk.

Agreed. But if the use of force is merely at the whim of a few individuals, this could change rapidly or be redirected somewhere else for any reason or no reason at all.

In this digital age, word gets around fast when things change. The new digital image is do not come here if you are a whore monger.

Nothing has changed. Just moved. The digital footprint reflects this (in spite of the posts related to the crackdowns).

I have no idea how the DR can affect how other countries treat a problem in the DR.

The point was simply that the DR has legal ways to enforce its reputational issue – which is against those promoting it online (most of whom travel to the DR). For those that don’t (e.g. owners of a site for example), few want to be declared a criminal in a foreign country for many reasons including risk of enforcement of criminal warrants (which is beyond the scope to discuss here).

Stopping promotion doesn’t address the physical presence of unaccompanied women in certain areas. This is purely a Dominican issue and would need a change of law (or illegal use of force, as is the case now). This would mean either a) making prostitution illegal (would include the beach) or b) requiring business to make reasonable attempts to exclude prostitutes (like most US States for example), without making prostitution illegal (i.e. would not include the beach).

I have no idea what legal precedent they use to stop suspected hookers. Perhaps DR1's legal team can comment on this regards to its legality.

Legal Precedent? The police lock the girls up with no charges. The girls can pay anywhere between 1,000 pesos and 3,000 pesos to leave a crowded cell with no water and no bathroom, or the girls can make sexual arrangements with individual officers to not be targeted (which I have personally overheard at least twice completely out in the open). They are usually released within 48 hours when not charged (which only happens if there is an actual crime committed).

However, if there is actually a DR Legal scholar who actually knows the law, then I would genuinely be fascinated to know what law trumps the DR Constitution and allows detention of single women in certain restricted areas (like the beach for example).

DR Const. Art. 40, Section 6, provides that "All persons deprived of their liberty, without cause or without the legal formalities or outside the cases set forth by the laws, shall be immediately released at their own request or of any person;" (Here constitutional rights cost money - please pardon the sarcasm and bold font)

DR Const. Art. 40, Section 15, provides that “No one will be obligated to do what the law does not require or prevented from doing what the law does not prohibit. The law is equal for all: it can only order what is just and useful for the community and it cannot prohibit more than what is prejudicial to it;”

With all due respect, the basis for DR law is not common law as in the US, but a form of Napoleonic Law.

As I understand the concept of "presumptive innocence" is not as prevalent here as the states because of the Napoleonic Code. So it may be entirely legally feasible to detain two women walking alone at night in an area known for prostitution and detain them within the construct of the constitution. An excellent example of my point would be the practice of "pretrial detention" with few avenues of appeal, which is pretty much being sentenced before you plea your case in court. Such practice would doubtfully happen in the states as "excessive bail" except in some of the most horrific crimes or repeat offenders because of the Eighth Amendment of the US Constitution.

It's a different world here.

 

[Tricky]

When law enforcement is encouraged (or even directed) to engage in illegal activities, at some point in the future, the war could be on you. Of course, it will be for a seemingly legitimate reason, to advance some seemingly legitimate purpose.

Sorry ... that was intended to be a 'LIKE'