american tourist mistaken for a prostitute and insulted by CESTUR

[si225]

With all due respect, the basis for DR law is not common law as in the US, but a form of Napoleonic Law.

As I understand the concept of "presumptive innocence" is not as prevalent here as the states because of the Napoleonic Code. So it may be entirely legally feasible to detain two women walking alone at night in an area known for prostitution and detain them within the construct of the constitution. An excellent example of my point would be the practice of "pretrial detention" with few avenues of appeal, which is pretty much being sentenced before you plea your case in court and almost would never happen in the states as "excessive bail" except in some of the most horrific crimes or repeat offenders under the Eighth Amendment of the US Constitution.

It's a different world here.

Const. Art 69. Section 3, guarantees each person "The right to be presumed innocent and to be treated as such, while their culpability has not been declared by means of irrevocable sentence;"

Prostitution is not illegal, so detaining them for something that is not a crime is prohibited.

A civil code country (like the DR) still has to follow their laws and constitution. However, I do understand it is a different world - A nation of Men, not of laws.

Pretrial detention (rightly or wrongly) is not considered punishment for criminal conduct, but rather (at least legally), a form of protection. For this reason you have things like Casa de Conductor (where you go if you have money instead of jail), demonstrating that pre-trial detention is not technically a form of punishment.

 

[cobraboy]

Const. Art 69. Section 3 guarantees each person "The right to be presumed innocent and to be treated as such, while their culpability has not been declared by means of irrevocable sentence;"

Prostitution is not illegal, so detaining them for something that is not a crime is prohibited.

A civil code country (like the DR) still has to follow their laws and constitution. However, I do understand it is a different world - A nation of Men, not of laws.

Pretrial detention (rightly or wrongly) is not considered punishment for criminal conduct, but rather (at least legally), a form of protection. For this reason you have things like Casa de Conductor (where you go if you have money instead of jail), demonstrating that pre-trial detention is not technically a form of punishment.

"Technically"

Good post.

BTW: Dominican law also requires 4% be spent on edumacation. That's not working out very well, either...

 

[jd426]

With all due respect, the basis for DR law is not common law as in the US, but a form of Napoleonic Law.

As I understand the concept of "presumptive innocence" is not as prevalent here as the states because of the Napoleonic Code. So it may be entirely legally feasible to detain two women walking alone at night in an area known for prostitution and detain them within the construct of the constitution. An excellent example of my point would be the practice of "pretrial detention" with few avenues of appeal, which is pretty much being sentenced before you plea your case in court. Such practice would doubtfully happen in the states as "excessive bail" except in some of the most horrific crimes or repeat offenders because of the Eighth Amendment of the US Constitution.

It's a different world here.

Although what you say is factually Correct..
How does this come into play when a person is in the ACT OF NOT BREAKING THE LAW ? Literally just WALKING down the Street.
Not outside of Curfew, Not participating in any activity, not even dressed a certain way and much less Propositioning someone. ?

imo, You are reaching quite a bit.. but if what you say is true that anyone can be picked up for any reason, because its "their Napoleonic system of Law .
That is hardly something that one would want to have made so public at such a time when the Dom Govt is so desperately trying to attract new Tourism $$..


oh wait,
si225 beat me to it, and more eloquently...
sorry did not see his post before I mashed my crumb infested keyboard.

 

[cobraboy]

Although what you say is factually Correct..
How does this come into play when a person is in the ACT OF NOT BREAKING THE LAW ? Literally just WALKING down the Street.
Not outside of Curfew, Not participating in any activity, not even dressed a certain way and much less Propositioning someone. ?

imo, You are reaching quite a bit.. but if what you say is true that anyone can be picked up for any reason, because its "their Napoleonic system of Law .
That is hardly something that one would want to have made so public at such a time when the Dom Govt is so desperately trying to attract new Tourism $$..


oh wait,
si225 beat me to it, and more eloquently...
sorry did not see his post before I mashed my crumb infested keyboard.

I'm hardly agreeing with, nor rationalizing picking up those folks as prostitutes.

IMO, somebody screwed up in their orders or the cops went rogue.

I suspect the local CESTUR office is gonna get a "talking to..."

It's one thing to be aggressive businesses who profit from prostitution. It's entirely different to aggressively go after individuals who have committed no crime.

 

[jd426]

We on the exact same page, no worries.. we just talking out loud..

 

[slowmo]

It is a local business. Build a jail for women, round up women to fill the jail. Repeat.

 

[cobraboy]

The Dominican government is treading in very dangerous territory with this idiotic campaign they are waging against the adult entertainment industry. Unleashing an undisciplined police force on a population can lead to disastrous results for a country. The D.R. with it?s history with Trujillo should be keenly aware of this. Today it?s those working in the adult entrainment industry or the evil Haitians, tomorrow it might be wealthy foreigners who are believed not to be sharing enough of their ?wealth?.

For those of you that are drooling at the prospects of seeing some segment of the population suffer because you think it supports your own personal situation I suggest you consider?

And I paraphrase?..

?When they came for the others I stood in silence and said nothing, when they came for me their was no one left for me to call out to.?.

Are you saying that the Dominican government, in an effort to clean up their act and attempt to rehabilitate the image of a couple of towns to increase tourism, is acting like a brutal dictator in the mold of Trujillo?

"Unleashing an undisciplined police force?" Unleashing?

Isn't that a tad on the hyperbolic side?

 

[playacaribe2]

I am going to draw a very narrow and important legal distinction regarding presumptive innocence.

si225 pointed out that the Dominican Constitution states in;

Const. Art 69. Section 3, guarantees each person "The right to be presumed innocent and to be treated as such, while their culpability has not been declared by means of irrevocable sentence;"

While I am not an expert on Dominican law, I do have familiarity with US law....so bear with me as I know this will appear absurd to some.

In the US, and I suspect the DR, the presumption of innocence has no, none, zero relevance.....outside a court of law.

Because, if there truly was a presumption of innocence until proven guity beyond the courthouse doors, there would be no preventative custody, held without bail or even the need for bail.

The presumption of innocence is a legal fiction......except inside a court of law.....where it is a rule of law....and that is where the burden becomes to then prove/establish guilt.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

 

[jd426]

Freqexpat,
I wish I could give you a hundred thank you's
very well said...
Some people are doomed to repeat History unfortunately...
and I agree, tomorrow it may very well be Rich Foreign Investors who did not "share " enough of the wealth...that will be targeted.
I believe we have seen that already with successful businesses CLOSED and then UNABLE to Re open , at the same Location I truly believe even if they just Re opened as Restaurants they would be targeted again.
Its almost as if once they Close you down, the Govt now OWNS that Location.. any of that Sound familiar ?

 

[jd426]

I am going to draw a very narrow and important legal distinction regarding presumptive innocence.

si225 pointed out that the Dominican Constitution states in;

Const. Art 69. Section 3, guarantees each person "The right to be presumed innocent and to be treated as such, while their culpability has not been declared by means of irrevocable sentence;"

While I am not an expert on Dominican law, I do have familiarity with US law....so bear with me as I know this will appear absurd to some.

In the US, and I suspect the DR, the presumption of innocence has no, none, zero relevance.....outside a court of law.

Because. if there truly was a presumption of innocence until proven guity beyond the courthouse doors, there would be no preventative custody, held without bail or even the need for bail.

The presumption of innocence is a legal fiction......except inside a court of law.....where it is a rule of law....and that is where the burden becomes to then prove/establish guilt.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

you could have simply said " you can indict a Ham sandwich" and been done with it..

lol

 

[cobraboy]

I am going to draw a very narrow and important legal distinction regarding presumptive innocence.

si225 pointed out that the Dominican Constitution states in;

Const. Art 69. Section 3, guarantees each person "The right to be presumed innocent and to be treated as such, while their culpability has not been declared by means of irrevocable sentence;"

While I am not an expert on Dominican law, I do have familiarity with US law....so bear with me as I know this will appear absurd to some.

In the US, and I suspect the DR, the presumption of innocence has no, none, zero relevance.....outside a court of law.

Because. if there truly was a presumption of innocence until proven guity beyond the courthouse doors, there would be no preventative custody, held without bail or even the need for bail.

The presumption of innocence is a legal fiction......except inside a court of law.....where it is a rule of law....and that is where the burden becomes to then prove/establish guilt.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

Excellent point by an actual practicing attorney.

I suspect in the DR it's even more of a fiction.

 

[si225]

I am going to draw a very narrow and important legal distinction regarding presumptive innocence.

si225 pointed out that the Dominican Constitution states in;

Const. Art 69. Section 3, guarantees each person "The right to be presumed innocent and to be treated as such, while their culpability has not been declared by means of irrevocable sentence;"

While I am not an expert on Dominican law, I do have familiarity with US law....so bear with me as I know this will appear absurd to some.

In the US, and I suspect the DR, the presumption of innocence has no, none, zero relevance.....outside a court of law.

Because, if there truly was a presumption of innocence until proven guity beyond the courthouse doors, there would be no preventative custody, held without bail or even the need for bail.

The presumption of innocence is a legal fiction......except inside a court of law.....where it is a rule of law....and that is where the burden becomes to then prove/establish guilt.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

There are, the world over, grey areas of legal fiction. In the United States, for example, you have:

1. bail (pre-trial detention due to flight risk);
2. contempt of court (where defying a judge resulted in maximum security prison for Martin Armstrong for 8 years with no charges ever brought); and
3. civil forfeiture (where they charge your property not you, so there is no due process or presumption of innocence, meaning it is your burden to prove your property is legally yours - last year the police confiscated more personal property in the U.S. than was reported stolen). These fictions exist in the DR as well.

In this case, the DR Constitution requires release or a charge within 48 hours. Even under the most tortured construction, however, this does not mean the government can detain anyone for any reason (due to other more specific protections previously mentioned) who has committed no crime, whose only offense was that their mere presence offended someone's personal interests.

 

[windeguy]

The Dominican government is treading in very dangerous territory with this idiotic campaign they are waging against the adult entertainment industry. Unleashing an undisciplined police force on a population can lead to disastrous results for a country. The D.R. with it’s history with Trujillo should be keenly aware of this. Today it’s those working in the adult entrainment industry or the evil Haitians, tomorrow it might be wealthy foreigners who are believed not to be sharing enough of their “wealth”.

For those of you that are drooling at the prospects of seeing some segment of the population suffer because you think it supports your own personal situation I suggest you consider…

And I paraphrase…..

”When they came for the others I stood in silence and said nothing, when they came for me their was no one left for me to call out to.”.

This is much simpler than what you are stating. You are leaping to some highly illogical conclusions in your attempt to discredit the War on Whores, or as you refer to it, The Adult Entertainment Industry.

Who are the board of directors in this business? Maybe they could have a chat with the government and they can make the government understand that by dismantling their business all of Dominican society will fall since they are "Too Big to Fail."

 

[cobraboy]

I am saying they are heading in that direction and they need to be very careful with how they proceed…The history of the country with Trujillo emphasizes this.

Once the machine of systemic oppression takes hold inside a government it’s like a pernicious parasite and can take generations to remove while in the meantime destroying the society.

This is not hyperbole at all. Given the conditions and the location it is very real.

I would assume that you are not even going to consider arguing that the various dominican police forces are a disciplined lot.

Putting pressure on sex tourism is now "systemic oppression?"

Seriously?

The entire gubmint in undisciplined, not just the police. Hell, expats are generally undisciplined.

Make this country "disciplined" and it will no longer have that rough-edges allure that many love so much...including me.

If I wanted to be in a "disciplined" Caribbean country, I'd go to Curacao or the Virgin Islands.

 

[Lobo Tropical]

The cause of bad reputation, can be remedied by correct actions and policies

It is like many other laws, it is sure a shame that the big countries get away with bullying the small countries into what laws they are allowed and what not.!

Words have meanings and if the consensus is that they want to change the meaning of human trafficking and include prostitution it sure dilutes the meaning of that word. Human trafficking used to mean slavery, buying and selling humans as one does horse and cows, cats and dogs. Now it also includes a lady accepting money for an hour of her time in bed! Damn!
Der Fish

The Fish, You are awake today!
This is the way subversive governments work to get their way.
We can be sure that various outside forces are applying pressure to have the DR fall into lockstep with their policies.
One is declared a Terrorist, Moslem Extremist, Human Trafficker, Pedophile, Jew, Gay and the hunt begins.
After all, what decent law abiding citizen could be against that, it would make them complicit sympathizers.
The treatment of Dominicans, Resident Expats and tourists in the DR has been highly questionable for a long time.

 

[windeguy]

The Fish, You are awake today!
This is the way subversive governments work to get their way.
We can be sure that various outside forces are applying pressure to have the DR fall into lockstep with their policies.
One is declared a Terrorist, Moslem Extremist, Human Trafficker, Pedophile, Jew, Gay and the hunt begins.
After all, what decent law abiding citizen could be against that, it would make them complicit sympathizers.
The treatment of Dominicans, Resident Expats and tourists in the DR has been highly questionable for a long time.

Trying to decrease the DR's reputation regarding prostitution is quite the multi-faceted witch hunt, is it not?

It appears certain that the sky will fall because of it. I had no idea.

Have you ever asked any Dominicans what they think about this approaching apocalypse?

 

[ramesses]

Trying to decrease the DR's reputation regarding prostitution is quite the multi-faceted witch hunt, is it not?

It appears certain that the sky will fall because of it. I had no idea.

Have you ever asked any Dominicans what they think about this approaching apocalypse?

The biggest problem the government will have is the internet....it takes eons for the search results on google to shift.

 

[cobraboy]

I think you just made the exact argument for exactly why the government needs to be careful and not let these police actions get out of control.

Just think...the next target might be the lawless Expats that enjoy the undisciplined environment that let's them do as they wish. If that were to happen you might change your thinking.

You take ONE situation from a local news source and overlay it as some massive systemic denial of rights.

Kinda a leap in logic based on facts, no?

And you take a statement on one topic...some enjoy the rough edge of lack of regulation...and then extend it as "let them do as they wish."

I hope you do understand the logical fallacies in your cause=effect models.

 

[cobraboy]

The biggest problem the government will have is the internet....it takes eons for the search results on google to shift.

Affecting a change in attitudes of travel agents most likely would be the goal.

 

[ramesses]

Affecting a change in attitudes of travel agents most likely would be the goal.

One google after they book will change their minds.