Attitude toward missionaries

[Thandie]

Is there ever anything in this life that is clear cut? Everything in life is full of conflict and contradiction. We simply do our best,

Hey Funwhileserving,
Here is an excellent book I would highly recommend to you called "AN IMPERFECT OFFERING: Humanitarian Action in the 21st Century" by Dr. James Orbinsky.
I recently had the pleasure of hearing him speak at a womens health conference and to converse with him.

Amazon.com: An Imperfect Offering: Humanitarian Action in the Twenty-first Century: James Orbinski: Books

Product Description
?As Albert Camus wrote, the doctor?s role is as a witness?to witness authentically the reality of humanity, and to speak out against the horrors of political inaction. . . . The only crime equaling inhumanity is the crime of indifference, silence, and forgetting.?
?James Orbinski

In 1988, James Orbinski, then a medical student in his twenties, embarked on a year-long research trip to Rwanda, a trip that would change who he would be as a doctor and as a man. Investigating the conditions of pediatric AIDS in Rwanda, James confronted widespread pain and suffering, much of it preventable, much of it occasioned by political and economic corruption. Fuelled by the injustice of what he had seen in Rwanda, Orbinski helped establish the Canadian chapter of M?decins Sans Fronti?res (Doctors Without Borders/MSF). As a member of MSF he travelled to Peru during a cholera epidemic, to Somalia during the famine and civil war, and to Jalalabad, Afghanistan.

In April 1994, James answered a call from the MSF Amsterdam office. Rwandan government soldiers and armed militias of extremist Hutus had begun systematically to murder Tutsis. While other foreigners were evacuated from Rwanda, Orbinski agreed to serve as Chef de Mission for MSF in Kigali. As Rwanda descended into a hell of civil war and genocide, he and his team worked tirelessly, tending to thousands upon thousands of casualties. In fourteen weeks 800,000 men, women and children were exterminated. Half a million people were injured, and millions were displaced. The Rwandan genocide was Orbinski?s undoing. Confronted by indescribable cruelty, he struggled to regain his footing as a doctor, a humanitarian and a man. In the end he chose not to retreat from the world, but resumed his work with MSF, and was the organization?s president when it was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1999.

An Imperfect Offering is a deeply personal, deeply political book. With unstinting candor, Orbinski explores the nature of humanitarian action in the twenty-first century, and asserts the fundamental imperative of seeing as human those whose political systems have most brutally failed. He insists that in responding to the suffering of others, we must never lose sight of the dignity of those being helped or deny them the right to act as agents in their own lives. He takes readers on a journey to some of the darkest places of our history but finds there unimaginable acts of courage and empathy. Here he is doctor as witness, recording voices that must be heard around the world; calling on others to meet their responsibility.

?Ummera, ummera?sha? is a Rwandan saying that loosely translated means ?Courage, courage, my friend?find your courage and let it live.? It was said to me by a patient at our hospital in Kigali. She was slightly older than middle aged and had been attacked with machetes, her entire body rationally and systematically mutilated. Her face had been so carefully disfigured that a pattern was obvious in the slashes. I could do little more for her at that moment than stop the bleeding with a few sutures. We were completely overwhelmed. She knew and I knew that there were so many others. She said to me in the clearest voice I have ever heard, ?Allez, allez. Ummera, ummera-sha???Go, go. Courage, courage, my friend?find your courage and let it live.?
?From An Imperfect Offering

 

[Thandie]

So you tell us why do you go to the DR when there many places like Guatemala that are more needy.

Actually there are much more needy places than Guatemala. I can give you a list with contact info since you are soooo interested in Guatemala.
Why do you think a grown woman such as myself, needs to justify ANY of my actions to you? Get a grip and a life!

 

[bob saunders]

Why do you think a grown woman such as myself, needs to justify any of my actions to you? Get a grip and a life!

nice mature answer

 

[NALs]

NALs

Thinka about that when you see the 700 new houses built for people who were living in tin can shacks with no toilet and mud floors....and thank God for the people who gave their hard earned after tax money and who came and helped.

Go and tell that to all the Dominicans that have been living in misery on Dominican soil for more generations than most Haitians have been living in the DR.

While foreigners go on and help illegal foreigners on Dominican soil, many Dominicans continue to live in 'tin can shacks without toilets.'

-NALs

 

[Thandie]

There are so many poor Dominicans in the same situation as you describe for the Haitians (the "refugees" as you call them) that could benefit from exactly the same help that hundreds (perhaps thousands) of missionaries provide every year in the Dominican Republic.

Just so people know that not all missionaries and mission trips exclusively help the Haitians. Dominicans are helped to.

I, as a Canadian, would be embittered if illegal immigrants by the thousands were crossing our border (with the U.S.) and other countries were coming to help not our poor but those same migrants that chose (no matter how desperately) to enter our country on their free will illegally.

I as a Canadian to would be embittered with your 'fake comparison' but you are comparing apples to oranges. A fake scenario, to a real life one with many variables you may be unaware of or forgot to mention, which makes this issue more complex.
For example I live with a very wealthy, highly respected Dominican family. The owner is an engineer and has a construction company. Every morning about 20 illegal Haitian men wait infront of the house for work, some probably come from the same Haitian Batey that the OP is coming to 'help'. All the other Dominicans who live in the neighbourhood walk by and are very aware that their fellow Dominican is employing illegal Haitian workers. I doubt they are making complaints to the DR immigration officials. I dont see that happening in Canada LOL!
Now this DR man has a very luxurious lifestyle, largely based on the fact that he KNOWINGLY chooses to employ ILLEGAL HAITIAN workers. His profits are much higher than if he were to hire DR workers, he has more business. And he could do that if he really wanted to, but why would he? He knows he will not suffer an negative consequences, like he would if he was in Canada. Do you think this DR man and many others in a similar situation want all these illegals kicked out of his country...hell no! I know of a project in Sousa and their construction staff is mostly if not all Dominican. So it can be done.

Now the rice fields I recently visited had 100% Haitian labour force. Every Dominican in the community knows this, it is not hidden. Could the Dominican owned company hire Dominicans....sure but at a higher wage....which they will NEVER do. Do you think that any, if any complaints to the correct govt officials would result in these workers being rounded up and sent back to Haiti? LOL! Business goes on with these illegal immigrants in plain view.
Nothing is done. Do you think the same scenario could happen so freely and out in the open in Canada (not saying that it doesnt). Nope a different apple and different orange.

I dont agree with illegal immigration in many circumstances BUT I also dont agree with the fact that so many locally owned companies are profiting off these illegal immigrants, or the local govt officals allowing them to come in or stay for the right price or because them and their friends businesses are profiting from having the illegals here.
If the illegal Haitians are really not wanted here more could be done to curb the problem. Like heavily fining and patroling the companies that employ many of these illegals. But the president is more concerned with giving Christmas pardons to his rich amigos.
You cant have it both ways you cant have your cake and eat it too!

 

[cabaretewilliam]

Go and tell that to all the Dominicans that have been living in misery on Dominican soil for more generations than most Haitians have been living in the DR.

While foreigners go on and help illegal foreigners on Dominican soil, many Dominicans continue to live in 'tin can shacks without toilets.'

-NALs

Check your facts NAL, they build villages for BOTH and teach them to get along. If we listen to you, we keep these women and children in the tins shacks, and watch their kids go into sex slavery in Sosua. Thanks God for these dedictated Christians (and others) who build houses AND SCHOOLS to break the cycle of poverty. As for that foolish comment by Thandie "as if locals are sheep without reasoning power and have absolutely no say and will automatically accept religious beliefs that they dont really want to" you obviously have not seen thefamilies transformed, free of drink and joyfully worhsipping. As for "reasoning" the world's leading NASA scientist, von Braun, read the Bible and became a Christian. He was kind of good a reasoning.

Apollo space program director Sam Phillips was quoted as saying that he did not think that America would have reached the moon as quickly as it did without von Braun's help. Later, after discussing it with colleagues, he amended this to say that he did not believe America would have reached the moon at all.

Take out the impact and help of Christians around the world,and the suffering of literally hundreds of MILLIONS would increase befoethe day is over. Even a fool can reason his waythrough to that conclusion.

 

[jrhartley]

Mr William you didnt read the whole of Thandies post did you (you took a quote out of context) ? too keen to jump in and batter us with your own beliefs !

 

[catcherintherye]

"As for "reasoning" the world's leading NASA scientist, von Braun, read the Bible and became a Christian. He was kind of good a reasoning."

Reminds of of Tom Lehner's satirical song in the 1950's.

Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,
A man whose allegiance
Is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown,
"Ha, Nazi, Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Don't say that he's hypocritical,
Say rather that he's apolitical.
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Some have harsh words for this man of renown,
But some think our attitude
Should be one of gratitude,
Like the widows and cripples in old London town,
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.

You too may be a big hero,
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
"In German oder English I know how to count down,
Und I'm learning Chinese!" says Wernher von Braun.

 

[Chirimoya]

Anyway doing stuff for poor people is not breaking the cycle of poverty. Annie's description of locals playing dominoes while gringos get their hands dirty is based on reality, not hyperbole.

The only way to break the cycle of poverty is to help them do it for themselves, help them become aware of their rights and encourage them to demand them. Otherwise you are just maintaining the status quo and keeping them helpless and dependent.

As with secular organisations helping the poor, the religious ones have their better and worse manifestations. Some maintain the status quo by telling poor people to accept their lot because their reward will come in the afterlife - a message that stunts development and progress.

Others like the Jesuits take a more integrated stance against poverty and engage in empowerment and advocacy for the poor as well as helping on the ground.

I get the impression that the OP has the insight to recognise the limitations of a short stint of voluntary work as opposed to a longer term skills-transfer process - not everyone can take a long break to do this, and no one denies that the volunteers get as much out of the experience as the beneficiaries. I also think posters here have provided him with a very helpful glimpse into the sensitivities of the Dominican-Haitian question.

 

[mountainannie]

Welcome to the discussion-

Thandie-

Certainly I appreciate your input-

As an interesting coincidence I, too am reading about "humanitarian aid" - so to add to the list - The Road to Hell (The ravaging effects of Foreign Aid and international charity)by Michael Maren
and The White Man's Burden, by William Easterly, and Globalization and its Discontents, by Joseph Stiglitz-- and of course, Mohammad Yunnus of the Grameen Bank who just won the Nobel Peace Prize -
Creating a World Without Poverty.

I have just started "Condemned to Repeat" by Fionna Terry who was also with MSF in Rwanda, and will add your recommendation to my list.

Note to DR1ers - I have these books in the Capital and will loan them out if you promise to return them in a timely fashion.

Let me just make two observations about your postings.

First, you appear to be carrying a virus called "attitude colonialista" which, if left untreated, can lead to a further outbreak of a condition known as "cultural imperialism", which left unchecked may lead to various serious conditions such as warfare and the wiping out of indigenous cultures.

Now it is much more usual to see this condition in United Staters than in Canadians who are usually more mild mannered. But, of course, historically, we come from the same infected imperialistic roots. This condition may be overcome by a rigorous course of self observation, walking lots and lots of miles in other people's moccosins, understand other languages, other cultures, and reading heartily and mightily from other religious and spiritual traditions.

Second, you show little understanding of the local culture, although perhaps this is a symptom of the virus. In the 165 years after independence from Haiti in 1844, the DR has 23 revolutions, an reannexation by Spain, two occupations by the United States, and some of the most vicious dictatorships in Latin American history. Only in the last twenty years has there been a semblance of what you and I, as North Americans, are accustomed to as "liberty." The poor here do not have the sense that they are entitled to organize and speak out against the wealthy. Power is held in the hands of the elite and politically powerful. So the locals are not going to stand up against the use of illegal Haitian workers. They do not have the power to do it. Not even the government has the power to do it. The families who have the power in this country are on a short list:they can be named.

If you "take care" of the poor here, this alleviates the pressure from the bottom, making it easier for the wealthy to continue their oppression. Have you not noticed how many Jeepetas here? Have you not seen the fine houses? Have you not driven around the elegant sections of the Capital? It is not that there is not wealth here. The problem is in the distribution of it.

As for the "choosing of Christianity"- there are Protestant missionaries who are flying around medical supplies here in helicopters. The locals here must view you like Cortez, who arrived in Mexico with horses that the indigenous had never seen, as Gods. Your White Man's Protestant God must indeed be more powerful, more omnipotent, more gracious and more generous than the one that the Pope has been talking with all these years.

Although, well, theoretically, it is supposed to be the same one, isn't it?

So I wonder, really, about you "Christians". We are overrun here with Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and now various Pentacosts and Evangelicals who evidently get fine stipends from their "home" congregations to come down here and "help" for the poor.

Is it development or is it "buying souls"? Do you provide an ongoing method for them to better themselves economically or are you just preparing them for a better life in the hereafter? Because if your job is "spiritual" why are you mixing in all this "material"-- and if your job is "materiality" why are you mixing in all this "spirituality"?

Do you then them plant fields? Do you train them for work? Do you start businesses for them? I know that there are many who will employ "Christians" because at least then they know that they will not be out drinking and gambling-- and perhaps not participating in the sex trade.

Certainly the Catholic Church did not do itself proud by signing a Concordat with both Trujillo and Duvalier. And I wonder about the ArchBishop who when he muses on "morality" focuses on homosexuality, abortion and euthanasia. At least the Evangelicals speak out about prostitution and crime and gambling. So perhaps that is something.

I remember when I lived in Haiti years ago and remarked that at the time there were 23 different Christian missionary organizations - who never spoke with one another. Now, of course, there are thousands. Who never speak with one another.

Alas, I fear that the God of Abraham would be very dismayed with the state of the three major religions of his children today.

So, perhaps, next trip, you will simply go to Haiti to help the Haitians there.

But be aware that the local elected head of the Vodusaints, which is a recognized religion in Haiti, has spoken out publicly against all missionaries and NGOs, saying that they have been an oppressive and detrimental influence in the history of Haiti.

Namaste

 

[sbsuib]

where

what city is it?

I live in a city practically overrun by missionaries, literally. Just this morining, 3 different groups rang the bell at the gate to "save" us (phat chance:cheeky. There are multiple missionary schools, charities, etc all around here.

'Course, I don't blame them one bit. It's a beautiful area, wonderful weather, cleaner than almost any other Dominican town, a large international population, reasonably priced, modern conveniences galore, relatively crime-free, fairly affluent, few seriously poverty-stricken barrios...so who wouldn't want to come here?

Heck, there might even be some destitute people who really need the help...[/QUOTE]

 

[Thandie]

Mr William you didnt read the whole of Thandies post did you (you took a quote out of context) ? too keen to jump in and batter us with your own beliefs !

Thank you Jhartley!

 

[sweetdbt]

cobraboy lives in the Jarabacoa area sbsuib, and it is indeed a nice place to "visit".

 

[Thandie]

Thandie-

what you and I, as North Americans, are accustomed to as "liberty."

Actually it is you Mountainannie and NOT I who is North American. I was not born and raised in Canada...but on another developing island...with alot of the similar issues and problems....a short boat ride away from the DR. So there is very little I had to really learn or adjust to, like you did. Most things are just so darn familiar to me...from the food, dancing, rythm in the music and the volume lol, blackouts, a family of 6 on a motorcycle, Caribbean time or lack of it, political and police corruption, poverty, issues of class, the superstictious beliefs, parents telling their kids ?pow pow?, etc! I look Dominican....whatever that means LOL, so I blend in perfectly here, and am constantly told my DR friends ?you are Dominican? because of the way I act.

So these issues and aspects of the culture that you are trying to ?enlighten? me about are things I didnt have to learn about by reading a collection of books or by luckily having the option to ?choose?to live in a developing country, but Mountainnnie I have had to live it, drink it, battle it, etc. for the majority of my life.

Actually have been to Haiti, have an ex who lives there and people from my island are really loved and welcomed in Hait?. Voodoo doesnt scare me, some family members practice obyiah, have been apart of numerous rituals...again nothing new or foreign to me!

And you assumed incorrectly again. I am not here on a short trip to volunteer with ANY religious church, group or organization.

Stay blessed

 

[bob saunders]

what city is it?

I live in a city practically overrun by missionaries, literally. Just this morining, 3 different groups rang the bell at the gate to "save" us (phat chance:cheeky. There are multiple missionary schools, charities, etc all around here.

'Course, I don't blame them one bit. It's a beautiful area, wonderful weather, cleaner than almost any other Dominican town, a large international population, reasonably priced, modern conveniences galore, relatively crime-free, fairly affluent, few seriously poverty-stricken barrios...so who wouldn't want to come here?

Heck, there might even be some destitute people who really need the help...

[/QUOTE]

He is speaking of Jarabacoa. Numerous missionary groups are in Jarabacoa, as well as several missionary school that are permanent fixtures at least since 1999 in one case. Many do very good work. Jarabacoa is chosen I think, for the reason stated by CB.

 

[mountainannie]

I am sorry, I misunderstood

Actually it is you Mountainannie and NOT I who is North American. I was not born and raised in Canada...but on another developing island...with alot of the similar issues and problems....a short boat ride away from the DR. So there is very little I had to really learn or adjust to, like you did. Most things are just so darn familiar to me...from the food, dancing, rythm in the music and the volume lol, blackouts, a family of 6 on a motorcycle, Caribbean time or lack of it, political and police corruption, poverty, issues of class, the superstictious beliefs, parents telling their kids ?pow pow?, etc! I look Dominican....whatever that means LOL, so I blend in perfectly here, and am constantly told my DR friends ?you are Dominican? because of the way I act.

So these issues and aspects of the culture that you are trying to ?enlighten? me about are things I didnt have to learn about by reading a collection of books or by luckily having the option to ?choose?to live in a developing country, but Mountainnnie I have had to live it, drink it, battle it, etc. for the majority of my life.

Actually have been to Haiti, have an ex who lives there and people from my island are really loved and welcomed in Hait?. Voodoo doesnt scare me, some family members practice obyiah, have been apart of numerous rituals...again nothing new or foreign to me!

And you assumed incorrectly again. I am not here on a short trip to volunteer with ANY religious church, group or organization.

Stay blessed

I thought that YOU were the young girl raised in the Canadian city who recognized Penny from the Summer Camp? The one whose mother had been so touched by the missionaries from the "other country" that they realized that there was "a better life" somewhere... and so finally,, she emigrated to Canada?

you told the story so well, I assumed it was your own. stranger than fiction.
my bad.
sorry.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Now this DR man has a very luxurious lifestyle, largely based on the fact that he KNOWINGLY chooses to employ ILLEGAL HAITIAN workers. His profits are much higher than if he were to hire DR workers, he has more business. And he could do that if he really wanted to, but why would he? He knows he will not suffer an negative consequences, like he would if he was in Canada. Do you think this DR man and many others in a similar situation want all these illegals kicked out of his country...hell no! I know of a project in Sousa and their construction staff is mostly if not all Dominican. So it can be done.

Now the rice fields I recently visited had 100% Haitian labour force. Every Dominican in the community knows this, it is not hidden. Could the Dominican owned company hire Dominicans....sure but at a higher wage....which they will NEVER do. Do you think that any, if any complaints to the correct govt officials would result in these workers being rounded up and sent back to Haiti? LOL! Business goes on with these illegal immigrants in plain view.
Nothing is done. Do you think the same scenario could happen so freely and out in the open in Canada (not saying that it doesnt). Nope a different apple and different orange.

I dont agree with illegal immigration in many circumstances BUT I also dont agree with the fact that so many locally owned companies are profiting off these illegal immigrants, or the local govt officals allowing them to come in or stay for the right price or because them and their friends businesses are profiting from having the illegals here.
If the illegal Haitians are really not wanted here more could be done to curb the problem. Like heavily fining and patroling the companies that employ many of these illegals. But the president is more concerned with giving Christmas pardons to his rich amigos.
You cant have it both ways you cant have your cake and eat it too!

For me this argument encapsulates very nicely the complexity of the situation with illegal Haitians. The same comparison can be made with Mexicans and others in the US. The difference is, that in the last few years in the US immigration laws are being enforced, but in the DR the government turns a blind eye and knows exactly what goes on.

Seems to me complaints about illegal Haitians should be directed to the two main culprits, the government and those that have the means to employ and profit from cheap labor. Other than that people are just practicing antihaitianismo.

 

[bob saunders]

Actually it is you Mountainannie and NOT I who is North American. I was not born and raised in Canada...but on another developing island...with alot of the similar issues and problems....a short boat ride away from the DR. So there is very little I had to really learn or adjust to, like you did. Most things are just so darn familiar to me...from the food, dancing, rythm in the music and the volume lol, blackouts, a family of 6 on a motorcycle, Caribbean time or lack of it, political and police corruption, poverty, issues of class, the superstictious beliefs, parents telling their kids ?pow pow?, etc! I look Dominican....whatever that means LOL, so I blend in perfectly here, and am constantly told my DR friends ?you are Dominican? because of the way I act.

So these issues and aspects of the culture that you are trying to ?enlighten? me about are things I didnt have to learn about by reading a collection of books or by luckily having the option to ?choose?to live in a developing country, but Mountainnnie I have had to live it, drink it, battle it, etc. for the majority of my life.

Actually have been to Haiti, have an ex who lives there and people from my island are really loved and welcomed in Hait?. Voodoo doesnt scare me, some family members practice obyiah, have been apart of numerous rituals...again nothing new or foreign to me!

And you assumed incorrectly again. I am not here on a short trip to volunteer with ANY religious church, group or organization.

Stay blessed

looking to meet cool people...Living in the D.R., Puerta Plata

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hola,

My name is Thandie, female, early-30's and I am living in the Dominican Republic, downtown Puerta Plata at the moment for at least 3 months. I have been here for a week and am originally from Toronto, Canada and my background is Caribbean from Jamaica.

I would love to meet expats and people travelling here for extended periods of time. My Spanish is basic so it would be great to meet some people to hang out with, and discover the city and island with.

Take care and speak to you soon!

Thandie

BLESSED

 

[Thandie]

I thought that YOU were the young girl raised in the Canadian city who recognized Penny from the Summer Camp? The one whose mother had been so touched by the missionaries from the "other country" that they realized that there was "a better life" somewhere... and so finally,, she emigrated to Canada?

you told the story so well, I assumed it was your own. stranger than fiction.
my bad.
sorry.

No need to apologize Mountainannie.
No I am a friend of hers. I was with her in the mall that day and witnessed it.
It was a very emotional event for me that I will never forget, because in all the years I have know her she has always been hard as nails and never ever showed any emotion.
Yes my mom was the one who had fond memories of those sun burned 'bwoy dem red like lobster' missionaries. lol

I am a Canadian citizen now, but I am always Jamaican first. As my mom says you are what you grew up eating LOL. If you grew up eating rice and peas and plaintain you are Caribbean. If you grew up eating lasagna and drinking red wine you are Italian! LOL

No problems and btw I agree with many of the points you had in some of your posts such as why these missionary groups dont communicate and the fact that 'some' are pure conmen, what some foreign intervention does to culture and community, 'help' that really keeps poor people dependent, etc.

 

[Thandie]

Bob, Bob, Bob... you really need to stop with this strange fascination you have with me.
Are you going to follow me around in every thread I post in? Continue to bother me in PMs? Because you are offended I called you prejudiced based on your prejudiced comment about Jamaican men?

Since you said you worked with Jamaicans for 30 years you should understand this....
"Listen here lickle bwoy, a why you a badda me? Go wey! Seen? Chu!!!"

How old are you? I am in my early 30's and I am guessing you are at least
20 damn years older than me, holding a pointless internet grudge is not good for you aging heart, let it go. Grow up already.