Bolivia/Morales - any influence in DR?

[Don Juan]

Castro, Chavez, Morales. The new & very real Axis of evil.

Why must we fear them? because...

Castro: Has the ideology. ( plus the know-how for very effective warfare).

Morales: Has the revolutionary fervor. ( the guy is young & driven ).

Chavez: Has the big bucks to finance any uprising in Latin America. (this Chopo has & will do as he pleases, the US not withstanding ).

All three, working in tandem, can easily oust our government, install Samanasue?os as puppet ruler, shut down DR1 & jail Robert as conspirator & profiteer!.... Now tell me if this isn't a real & present danger!!!

 

[Joshua R]

drilling fo oil in the Domnican republic is WAY too risky and would jeperdize the whole island. for you peepz who dont know DR is basicly floating in oil reserves but drilling it would cause the island to cave in ( yes its possible) minnig is a good idea but culumbus already stole all the gold and silver our country had to offer so we basicly got screwed by spain lolz i would think a strong leader with the determination of Trujillo and the leadership of Che would get our country out of its problems and place us once again on the map Leonel is doing kinda good he's observing the problems in our country in depth but he's being bitched around by the US and other strong world players but hey to my dominicans out there ! F*ck em' TODO POR LA PATRIA! lets show these gringos what we're made of !

 

[principe]

Ok

Evo Morales, and DR. NO DICE, those two in the same sentence are incongrous. Why. Bueno, first off the "revolutionary" spirit in DR was killed off a long time ago. Secondly, very few people on the islands left with the ball$ or that care enough to bring about true change. Everyone is busy lining his/her own pocket. Dominicans that look favorably at Chavez, or even Fidel do more out of a sense of Latin nationalism (as stated earlier) than anything else. I dont see the DR falling out of line with the US on any major anytime soon.

 

[samanasuenos]

Good Point Principe!

Yes, I agree that the Dr has too many ties to the USA to step out of line right now. Shame....

However, as the number of Leftist, anti-USA leaders rises, slowly, one by one, in Latin America, folks must be talking.....and what they sare saying is what I was curious to hear about.

I am also curious as to what resources in the DR could be nationalized. Other than cocaine. JA!

 

[Chirimoya]

I know - nationalise the sankies!

 

[principe]

This is the Deal

Earlier people stated young men liking socialism and what not. Im that guy, 25Yrs old. Must say that early on the more i learned about Che's the i fell for the man (no not that way perv) and his beliefs, and why not his methods. True, the man was a 'sociopath' to some degree, but his methods did render results. I believe a poster mentioned that in a socialist revolutions, the first ones to go are the socialists. Dont know if thats entirely accurate, but they (Cubas revolutionaries) knew they had to eliminate any and all threats, potential, real, and even imaginary. Cruel yes, but an effective way of getting rid of enemies.

Suenos im sure you and I both want the best of things for DR, just not sure we want it to come from the same way. See instead of hoping for an anti US leader or nationalizing resources we should hope for a politician, just one that actually cares. You will notice that our dependence on the US or whoever will decrease as we DEPEND more on OURSELVES.

 

[RHM]

but they (Cubas revolutionaries) knew they had to eliminate any and all threats, potential, real, and even imaginary. Cruel yes, but an effective way of getting rid of enemies.
QUOTE]

The Holocaust: cruel yes, but an effective way to get rid of Jews.

Effectiveness is not the measure of right or wrong. The H-Bomb sure was effective in ending WWII but lots of people still debate it.

Sorry. I just have to jump in whenever Che and others are romanticized. I read a research paper a few weeks ago documenting the thousands of people that Che personally gave the order to be executed. It's not right when anyone does it.

Che, Elvis, JFK, hell...even Mama Cass all have something in common. They become more popular after dying young.

Scandall

 

[easygoin]

I had a dream and high hopes.

Nobody is gonna help the DR but themselves, and that's about a thousand to one shot.Due to a crooked government, migration of Haitians, poor education and no funding in the future for it, teenagers popping babies out like cockroaches... causing reduction for valuable plantations,so it's downhill every day for the country.

You can take Cuba, Venezuela, Haiti, Peru, and even Brazil..... which couldn't even get a rocket after years of technology and input into space...but killing many on the ground when it exploded on a launch pad and they are supposed to have the most technology out of Third World countries. So turning against the United States as a group.. would cause more harm than good. Besides the US could take them out in a short week if need be.


The DR's problems lies in the fish rot's from the head down and that will never change for the better.

 

[samanasuenos]

yes, but ...

Easygoin-

Yes, I see what you mean and thanks for the reply.

At the same time, don't you think that many people felt as you do and spoke as you do, prior to the revolutions in Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia .....

I agree with folks who say that Morales is not going to stir up anything big in the RD. At the same time, poco a poco, maybe people will wake up from apathy.

You know, when you save pennies at firt you are tempted not to hope for that dollar. But after the first few add up .....

With enough role models for revolution in other countries, it is not unfeasible that the prevailing apathy in the RD might shift.

Yes, this is more than a long shot. Look at history.Do you really think past revolutions were built like a paint by numbers drawing? Odd synchronicities add up in bizarre ways. That is part of the beauty of life.

I can not argue that it will happen (any time soon) in the RD, but I can say that if you study history - stranger things HAVE happened.

Thanks for your opinion; I appreciate it!

 

[Chirimoya]

Not that this marks the DR too far apart from other countries, but the radical movement here, when there was one of any significance, was made up almost entirely of intellectuals. There was never a mass grassroots revolutionary movement of campesinos or workers to support it.

People here on the whole are conditioned to accept their lot in life, and although the poorer might envy those richer than them, their reaction is 'how can I get to be like that' rather than 'get me an AKA and I'll blow away the lot of them'.

At a push I could see a Chavez scenario happening here, with a Candelier-type figure riding on the dissatisfaction with the conventional parties' track record, the difference being that socialist or anti-US rhetoric would probably not be part of the formula.

 

[RHM]

the difference being that socialist or anti-US rhetoric would probably not be part of the formula.

Especially not when so many of the "foot soldiers" get support from "Nueba Yol".

Scandall

 

[principe]

Chiri and Scandall bring out good points, maybe because of the demeanor or a certain i dont know what of Dominicans or nice (island folk) we are not for revolution. And given the almost 15% GDP, reliance on remittances mainly from the US, anti-US sentiment cannot, and should not be that great. For the most part DRs embrace of capitalism is strong. What we need to do now is De-Dominicanize our capitalism and democracy into more pure, efficient, and competitive forms.

 

[samanasuenos]

Thank you for some serious food for thought.

Principe: I see what you mean about the mellow nice island folk demeanor. On the other hand, Dominicans are known as some serious arguers. And what of the catfights over men en la calle? Yeah, I forgot - Revolution is a long term concept that takes planning, not impulse. (And my apologies to the jilted jealous lovers tearing out hair and sequins everywhere....whew.)

Seriously,as for the GDP and reliance on the USA - I read that Morales will have to deal with the imminent withdrawl of $151 MILLION USD - that the USA had been paying Bolivia to pursue other uses of coca - anything but making cocaine. I forget what the "other uses" for coca leaf are, but they did list a few and it sounded right.

Morales, on the other hand, said that coca as a plant gets a very bad rap, (like hemp) and that it has myriads of uses, many folklorical and very real, other than recipes for cocaine. I wouldn't know.

I do know that he is going to lose $151 MILLION USD. I want to see what the hungry peasants have to say THEN.

As for a revolution, or coup, that was not necessarily socialist or anti-USA in nature .....what are the odds?

Scandall - Good point, on the other hand the foot soldiers are likely to ask why they can make cashola in Nueba Yol and not in La Patria. Well, maybe not as the remittances keep them comfortabley disinterested in change, a la the influence of the USA Consumer Culture - buy, buy, buy. Just. Don't. Think.

Chiri - if we take out socialist and anti-US rhetoric from the formula, what would the pep talks sound like and whose mouths would they come from? Serious question here, an inquiry, not sarcastic on my part. Promise.

Would it be led by the expats? Maybe some Green German Environmentalists who are fed up with all the dirt and grime? Sorry, I could not resist.

Thank you to everyone for your well-thought out replies!

 

[RHM]

During the last administration (Hipolito Mejia) things just kept getting worse and worse...no electricity...and I MEAN NONE at the end of his admin...hyper-devaluation of the peso...corruption...crime...free speech violations...it was horrendous....

and I braced and braced....and waited for the revolution...hell, I would have settled for a huge protest...didn't happen.

Dominicans are so damn used to being abused by their own corrupt governments that they just deal with it...and wait for "something or someone" to change it...

We will not see a significant "revolution" during our lifetimes. Unless the taxes on alcohol and cigarettes go through the roof. That could do it.

SCandall

 

[Chirimoya]

Chiri - if we take out socialist and anti-US rhetoric from the formula, what would the pep talks sound like and whose mouths would they come from? Serious question here, an inquiry, not sarcastic on my part. Promise.

Pep talks could be nationalist, with anti-Haitian bluster as an optional extra. As we all know, there's nothing like stirring up conflict with the folks next door to divert attention from problems at home.

A populist like Candelier could exploit discontent with the conventional parties and manage to appeal to people across the social spectrum, with no need to fan the flames of class warfare.

He would be wise to avoid any anti-US rhetoric for purely pragmatic reasons.

 

[easygoin]

Easygoin-

Yes, I see what you mean and thanks for the reply.

At the same time, don't you think that many people felt as you do and spoke as you do, prior to the revolutions in Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia .....

I agree with folks who say that Morales is not going to stir up anything big in the RD. At the same time, poco a poco, maybe people will wake up from apathy.

You know, when you save pennies at firt you are tempted not to hope for that dollar. But after the first few add up .....

With enough role models for revolution in other countries, it is not unfeasible that the prevailing apathy in the RD might shift.

Yes, this is more than a long shot. Look at history.Do you really think past revolutions were built like a paint by numbers drawing? Odd synchronicities add up in bizarre ways. That is part of the beauty of life.

I can not argue that it will happen (any time soon) in the RD, but I can say that if you study history - stranger things HAVE happened.

Thanks for your opinion; I appreciate it!

With people like you there is always hope.

The hardest part of the job to clean the country up.... is getting the crooks out of office. And when you have the majority of the population in poverty that don't know any better or are satisfied... you're behind the eight ball... because they are not starving like in many other countries. Believe me when you go with no food you will resort to anything and not the case.So it's going to be very hard to turn them. I just don't think the country is down low enough for the vast percentage to realize how bad it is.

 

[samanasuenos]

no hurry to oust anybody's crooked a$$!

"So it's going to be very hard to turn them. I just don't think the country is down low enough for the vast percentage to realize how bad it is."

Thanks for your reply Easygoin. I agree. Sigh......... Dominicans seem trodden down by others standards, yet they keep on chugging away and seem in no hurry to oust anybody's crooked a$$!

 

[qgrande]

Pep talks could be nationalist, with anti-Haitian bluster as an optional extra. As we all know, there's nothing like stirring up conflict with the folks next door to divert attention from problems at home.

A populist like Candelier could exploit discontent with the conventional parties and manage to appeal to people across the social spectrum, with no need to fan the flames of class warfare.

He would be wise to avoid any anti-US rhetoric for purely pragmatic reasons.

A coup or something involving a Che-like armed struggle is not very likely. Most revolutions (Chavez, Morales) are now democratic. Creating a common enemy always works well to gain popular support. Anti-Haitian rhetoric might in that sense serve a similar purpose as the anti-US, anti-globalisation rhetoric of Chavez or Morales. A difference is that in those countries there are/were internal pro-US/capitalist land-owner/elite oppositions to revolutionise against as well. So extrenal geopolitics coincides with internal cleavages. Who's the strongly pro-Haitian elite in the DR? Could some populist with credibility portray Leonel or the ruling elite in general as too pro-Haitian?

 

[samanasuenos]

Time Magazine - 1/9, 1/16 or 1/23....not sure which...

I just read a letter to the editor in what was likely the Jan. 16th or 23rd edition of TIME Magazine.

It was in response to a previous (Jan. 9 or 16?) article on Latin America and .. I believe the left and its influence (growing). Furthermore, the letter was written by a Dominican finishing his graduate studies in NY with hopes of a return to the RD and sowing some lefty seeds. Anybody catch the article? Or read the letter to the editor? I will dig them up now, if I can manage..........

My point: I am not as nutso as I had feared. And my support - a Dominican! YIPPEE! Back I go to looking at some "beachfront" property in Santiago. JEJEJE. Cheap!

 

[samanasuenos]

To the Left, March!

First it was Venezuela's Chavez. Now Bolivia's new President promises to be Bush's "nightmare"

By TIM PADGETT


Jan. 9, 2006

Jan. 9, 2006 Evo Morales once quipped that the coca leaf should be Bolivia's " new national flag." It almost looks as if he has fulfilled his prediction as he parties into the night wearing coca-leaf wreaths during the weeks leading up to his Jan. 22 inauguration as Bolivia's President. The leftist Morales, 46, won a stunning landslide in last month's election in no small part because he pledged to legalize far more cultivation of coca, which Aymara Indians like him have chewed for centuries for traditional medicinal purposes and which the U.S. has tried for decades to eradicate in Bolivia because drug traffickers...


((They won't give me the entire article without paying, and I can not locate the Jan. 16 letter to the editor from the Dominican, but I may go back to the dental office where I ran across it and ask to copy it for you all. Unless someone has the magazine and cares to type in the letter....which, for the purposes of this thread, is more timely than the actual article itself. Gracias))

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1145255,00.html