Dominican Color/Racial Preference Findings

[Chip]

chip, oh chip... i said this before and i will say it again: if people only spoke on subjects they have knowledge of the earth would be silent.

I would say this generally is the case assuming that the information that's out there is informative, mostly objective and correct. With regards to information in English about Dominican culture and racism I'm afraid to say 100% of what I've read is skewed.

more on topic: i do not know about the skin colour but hair seems to be of importance here: good hair, that is. a dominicana will show with pride a child of any shade as long as it has pelo bueno.
rasizm in DR? no more than what i see elsewhere. less so, maybe, because where i come from most people would not marry someone of a different race.

Dominican women like good hair like American women like wavy and curly hair and both will do whatever it takes to have it.

Also, Dominicans like lighter skin generally, to a point, and Americans like a good tan. I should post some pictures of classmates of mine in their late 40's who have been sun worshipers all their life. Needless to say they look 60 years old.

Amazing what people will do to try to change their color or appearance, wherever they are.

 

[dv8]

yep, at home we have perm and tanning studios here they have hair relaxer and crema blanqueadora.
i just wish people would be happier in their own skin, literally. maybe that would make them more understanding towards other people's skin too.

 

[NALs]

Furthermore...

In the most recent edition of Archivos de Arquitectura Antillana, between pages 15 and 17 is an article written by Sociologist, Federico Henr?quez Gratereaux. In the article he explains the basis of Dominican identity, the misunderstandings that usually foreigners have regarding not only Dominican identity, but also the Dominican-Haitian conflict, but also race relations and racial prejudice within Dominican society compared to other Caribbean societies.

“…no se trata de un problema racial; se trata de un problema cultural”. (…its not a racial problem, but a cultural problem.)

“No es lo mismo el negro biol?gico –piel, morfolog?a, ?ngulo facial- que el negro biogr?fico –lengua, historia, costumbres”. (The biological black –color, morphology, facial angles- is not the same as the biographical black –language, history, customs.)

“El Santo Domingo espa?ol es plenamente una poblaci?n de mulatos desde mediados del siglo XVI; desde esa fecha la corona espa?ola tuvo que aceptar que los mulatos tuviesen cargos p?blicos. Eso contribuy? mucho entre nosotros a la atenuaci?n de los prejuicios raciales. En Cuba, el gobierno colonial espa?ol traz? una pol?tica racista que no pudo mantener en Santo Domingo. De todos los pa?ses biraciales de las Antillas, Santo Domingo es el que conserva menos prejuicios raciales. Jamaica, Martinica, Cuba no pueden compararse con Santo Domingo. Hait?, como es bien sabido, ha sufrido varias guerras raciales entre negros y mulatos.

Tiene raz?n Juan Bosch cuando dice que Santo Domingo nunca ha tenido una guerra social. Podemos a?adir que tampoco nunca ha tenido una guerra racial”. (Spanish Santo Domingo is practically a population composed of mulattoes since the mid-16th century; from that date the Spanish crown had to accept mulattoes in public office. In Cuba, the Spanish colonial government developed a racist policy that was not able to maintain in Santo Domingo. Of all the biracial countries in the Antilles, Santo Domingo is the one that conserves the least racial prejudices. Jamaica, Martinique, Cuba can’t be compared to Santo Domingo. As is well known, Haiti has suffered many racial wars between blacks and mulattoes.

Juan Bosch was right when he said that Santo Domingo has never had a social war. We can add that it has never had a racial war.)

AAA 041

 

[frank recktenwald]

yep, at home we have perm and tanning studios here they have hair relaxer and crema blanqueadora.
i just wish people would be happier in their own skin, literally. maybe that would make them more understanding towards other people's skin too.

They also like to use shampoo made from whale sperm. I wonder how they get that? Whales lined up laying on their backs while 100 guys are spanking their monkeys?

 

[bronzeallspice]

yep, at home we have perm and tanning studios here they have hair relaxer and crema blanqueadora.
i just wish people would be happier in their own skin, literally. maybe that would make them more understanding towards other people's skin too.

i agree with you.we have to accept people the way they are.we sure as hell can't change anyone.

 

[gringostudent]

What's absurd is people who don't speak the language living here or abroad opining on this topic.

Actually one of the things tht made me notice how race conscious the DR is was when I came and didnt speak any spanish. I noticed how people that by American standards were black got uncomfortable when I would refer to them or others as such. Then as I learned more spanish, I saw how many ways there were to call someone black without saying they are black.
You learn a lot about something as your experience transfers from objective to subjective like that.

 

[Jetblue Flight 811]

And the Haitians just happen to be overwhelmingly black.
Coincidence?

Look, we have been over this numerous times.

White is largely considered good in the DR. Black is largely considered bad in the DR.
Everybody knows this.
TV and publicity on street hoardings overwhelmingly feature lighter skinned people.

This is not exclusive to just the DR, its everywhere. I'm black, VERY black. However this day in age i think color plays less of a factor(thank god). The ironic thing is( and i dont mean to sound racist) light-colored people were responsible for conquering many nations by violence and force hundreds of years ago(including DR) and yet people are more likely to find a white person non-threatening than a dark person......go figure :ermm:

 

[NALs]

Actually one of the things tht made me notice how race conscious the DR is was when I came and didnt speak any spanish. I noticed how people that by American standards were black got uncomfortable when I would refer to them or others as such. Then as I learned more spanish, I saw how many ways there were to call someone black without saying they are black.
You learn a lot about something as your experience transfers from objective to subjective like that.

I think your case is the opposite, rather than going from objective to subjective, you simply stuck to your subjective way, heavily influenced by how things are done in the USA.

You need to leave behind the US classification, it simply doesn't applies in most of the world.

For example, in Spanish there's no variety of ways that a black person can be called black without being called black.

First you have to understand that a mixed race person is not the same as a non-mixed one, and there are terms that clearly defines that. Then there are different words, within each group, that means the exact same thing in each group separately. Moreno, negro both mean the exact same thing. By using moreno you are not calling someone black without calling them black, that's actually an oxymoron. You're calling a person black, that's it. With negro intonation is important, since that can change the meaning from black to n*gger, and that changes everything.

The same when referring to the mulattoes, whether its jabaos, indio or whatever, it all means mulatto, but since there are difference appearances, each appearance is separately identified. But calling someone mulatto in any of its forms is not calling someone black. That mentality, that a mulatto is a black, is a very American way of seeing things and this is why you need to step out of the American box to fully understand this.

In fact, it now comes to my mind how Americans have their own concept of what is black, often lumping blacks with non-blacks (mixed race ones) in the same category and thinking of them as the same, when in reality they're not since the differences are quite obvious. However, Americans do have different ways of meaning the same thing, some maybe offensive (black, negro, African-American, n*gger).

That's the problem with your view of Dominicans, you still think like an American and still see the DR through the American filter, this is why you don't get it, for now at least.

Chip, on the other hand, does get it. But he had to go through a "Dominicanization" process before he could had:

1. Understood that there is such a thing as the American way of seeing things.

2. That the American way is not how the rest of the world functions.

3. That to fully understand the rest of the world, one has to leave behind the American way.

4. Trying to justify everything based on the American way will give you a very American version of the reality, and when it comes to other countries, that Americanized version is going to be way off.

 

[NALs]

This is not exclusive to just the DR, its everywhere. I'm black, VERY black. However this day in age i think color plays less of a factor(thank god). The ironic thing is( and i dont mean to sound racist) light-colored people were responsible for conquering many nations by violence and force hundreds of years ago(including DR) and yet people are more likely to find a white person non-threatening than a dark person......go figure :ermm:

This is why I often show what goes on in Haiti, since many of the more pro-Haitian people tend to ignore certain things about themselves (or who they defend the most) whenever they want to criticize Dominicans. It is rather hypocritical, IMO.

For example, has anyone wondered what happened to Baby Doc? (And I'm not referring to the fact that he's not a baby anymore, lol)

Here, have a look:

Is he trying to tell us something about Haitian ideals? Maybe he simply has become much more lighthearted. Bah, who knows!

 

[gringostudent]

I think your case is the opposite, rather than going from objective to subjective, you simply stuck to your subjective way, heavily influenced by how things are done in the USA.

You need to leave behind the US classification, it simply doesn't applies in most of the world.

For example, in Spanish there's no variety of ways that a black person can be called black without being called black.

First you have to understand that a mixed race person is not the same as a non-mixed one, and there are terms that clearly defines that. Then there are different words, within each group, that means the exact same thing in each group separately. Moreno, negro both mean the exact same thing. By using moreno you are not calling someone black without calling them black, that's actually an oxymoron. You're calling a person black, that's it. With negro intonation is important, since that can change the meaning from black to n*gger, and that changes everything.

The same when referring to the mulattoes, whether its jabaos, indio or whatever, it all means mulatto, but since there are difference appearances, each appearance is separately identified. But calling someone mulatto in any of its forms is not calling someone black. That mentality, that a mulatto is a black, is a very American way of seeing things and this is why you need to step out of the American box to fully understand this.

In fact, it now comes to my mind how Americans have their own concept of what is black, often lumping blacks with non-blacks (mixed race ones) in the same category and thinking of them as the same, when in reality they're not since the differences are quite obvious. However, Americans do have different ways of meaning the same thing, some maybe offensive (black, negro, African-American, n*gger).

That's the problem with your view of Dominicans, you still think like an American and still see the DR through the American filter, this is why you don't get it, for now at least.

Chip, on the other hand, does get it. But he had to go through a "Dominicanization" process before he could had:

1. Understood that there is such a thing as the American way of seeing things.

2. That the American way is not how the rest of the world functions.

3. That to fully understand the rest of the world, one has to leave behind the American way.

4. Trying to justify everything based on the American way will give you a very American version of the reality, and when it comes to other countries, that Americanized version is going to be way off.

I said that was when I arrived. I now speak spanish perfectly, have a dominican wife, and consider myself part dominican. You will hard pressed to find anybody else more apatanao. Take your "you need to step outside the american box" arguments elsewhere. Im now 30 and have lived a grand total of 1.5 years in the US since I graduated high school. I am the oldest of 18 childrem adopted from 8 countries. I have dedicated myself to seeing things outside the "American box".

I very much now understand the connotation of negro, and how it can be said, and that my American classification of racial groups isnt used worldwide. I also understand now that you should be careful of using the word American in Latin America like you do as opposed to estadounidoinse. Your defensive and accusatory tone dont do much to help your argument either.

Before I came to the DR, I had been to 30 countries, and I never saw any other place that comes close to being as racially concious and charged as the DR. When you ask a dominican to describe somebody, the first thing they say will be how much money he has if hes got it, and if he doesnt it will be what he looks like racially. Im from the deep south in the states and we worry about race less than dominicans. If nobody cares about race, why are there so many ways to describe it in the DR? How many words do the Eskimos have for snow? Nobody cares? Tell that to Sammy Sosa, or Trujillo for that matter.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Im from the deep south in the states and we worry about race less than dominicans.

Interracial Couple Denied Marriage License By Louisiana Justice Of The Peace

The day in which you see something like this enacted here, then that will be the day in which you will be able to say the above with all property.

 

[NALs]

I said that was when I arrived. I now speak spanish perfectly, have a dominican wife, and consider myself part dominican. You will hard pressed to find anybody else more apatanao. Take your "you need to step outside the american box" arguments elsewhere. Im now 30 and have lived a grand total of 1.5 years in the US since I graduated high school. I am the oldest of 18 childrem adopted from 8 countries. I have dedicated myself to seeing things outside the "American box".

I still think you need to continue dedicating yourself to thinking outside the American box. If you're now 30 and after high school you only lived in the US for 1.5 years, that means 65% of your life was spent in the US.

I also understand now that you should be careful of using the word American in Latin America like you do as opposed to estadounidoinse.

Actually, estadounidense is my preferred term for Americans while I speak Spanish. Anyone that knows me or that has seen my writings in Spanish, on paper and online, knows that.

Does this seems like Spanish to you? Until now I was convinced I was writing in English (or something close to that, lol).

Your defensive and accusatory tone dont do much to help your argument either.

I'm not being defensive nor accusatory.

Before I came to the DR, I had been to 30 countries, and I never saw any other place that comes close to being as racially concious and charged as the DR.

If you still think Dominicans are racially conscious, then I can't really help you.

Color conscious, yes; bit racial consciousness? Our identity is completely de-racialized, for Pete's sakes!

Im from the deep south in the states and we worry about race less than dominicans. If nobody cares about race, why are there so many ways to describe it in the DR?

First, there are not many ways to describe "race" since the concept of race as Americans (yes, Americans) know it simply doesn't exist in the Dominican psyche. If you're confused by this, then it has to do with you having fully not stepped out of the American box.

We describe color and features as descriptors, not in racial terms. This should had been clear to you by now.

Second, if Americans truly worried less about race, why is it that outside areas where the law requires Americans to mix, most often part their own ways. Sure, you will see all sorts of people mingling in office settings, in education institutions, but there are racial laws that ensures that exist. In social settings, especially outside the major cities and in the south, people don't really mix much. This is clearly visible and contrast with what's see in, say, Dominican Republic.

How many words do the Eskimos have for snow? Nobody cares? Tell that to Sammy Sosa, or Trujillo for that matter.

Or Michael Jackson? LOL

Our (aka, Dominican) concept of race is our nationality, everything else is a descriptor in the same sense as is height or weight. I was going to say gender, but that actually creates an expectation of how a person should act, much like racial categories tend to create in the American mindset.

In the US, whites are expected to act a certain way, blacks another.

In the DR those and many others are simply descriptors, its entire national groups that are expected to act in certain ways, and within Dominican society, its social class (income, education, etc) that defines conduct.

We don't even have different cuisine or art or music or whatever else for each descriptor, unlike in the US where their concept of race implies differences in culture and conduct, and anyone that deviates from that is seriously questioned.

A young black American listens to rock and roll and their racial identity will be seriously challenged, any Dominican listens to rock and roll and, unless they are of the lower class, their class identity will not be challenged. Notice the difference? There's no racial identity, absolutely none!

But, I guess you knew that, right?

 

[the gorgon]

well, i feel so much better now. having heard that there is not very much evidence to support assertions of racism in the DR, i can start looking for a new reason why so many clubs in this country refuse entry to dark skinned people. maybe i can advise the USA consular services that they can lift the order on their staffers, forbidding
them from patronizing a list of clubs that did not allow blacks to be a part of the clientele. now that is a load off my mind.

 

[Naked_Snake]

well, i feel so much better now. having heard that there is not very much evidence to support assertions of racism in the DR, i can start looking for a new reason why so many clubs in this country refuse entry to dark skinned people. maybe i can advise the USA consular services that they can lift the order on their staffers, forbidding
them from patronizing a list of clubs that did not allow blacks to be a part of the clientele. now that is a load off my mind.

Dude, to ban the marriage of a couple on the basis of skin color is one of the must ****ed up things that one could ever hear/read about in one's entire existence, so this should upset you more than a riquito not allowing you entrance in a club.

 

[NALs]

well, i feel so much better now. having heard that there is not very much evidence to support assertions of racism in the DR, i can start looking for a new reason why so many clubs in this country refuse entry to dark skinned people. maybe i can advise the USA consular services that they can lift the order on their staffers, forbidding
them from patronizing a list of clubs that did not allow blacks to be a part of the clientele. now that is a load off my mind.

There have been some issues in a handful of clubs, as per the press. Of course, being inside those clubs is another matter completely since even Dominican blacks can and often are seen even in the few clubs that supposedly has 'the problem.' Many is too ample of a word to be used in what are highly isolated cases, too few to merit much generalizations.

Now, discrimination based on socioeconomic grounds is much more pervasive than color discrimination. Racial discrimination is almost unknown since, well, even the owners of many of those clubs are non-white, even by Dominican standards; but they are usually not of the same socioeconomic class as some of the people that have been excluded. That's what makes the difference.

American blacks are often allowed into many of those 'racist' clubs because, on average, foreigners are perceived to be of higher social standing.

Even lighter skin people are rejected if they don't fit the socioeconomic profile or unless they change a certain clothe or jewelry (earrings on men, etc).

 

[gringostudent]

next time I hear somebody call a black Dominican or a Haitian a maldito negro or a mono I'm not gonna get mad, I'm just gonna understand that they arent racist, that I'm the one with the problem. Thanks yall have shown me the error of my ways.

 

[bob saunders]

well, i feel so much better now. having heard that there is not very much evidence to support assertions of racism in the DR, i can start looking for a new reason why so many clubs in this country refuse entry to dark skinned people. maybe i can advise the USA consular services that they can lift the order on their staffers, forbidding
them from patronizing a list of clubs that did not allow blacks to be a part of the clientele. now that is a load off my mind.

Can you name a few of these clubs? It shouldn't be hard, as you say there are many.

 

[gringostudent]

Ive seen it a bunch of times a praia

 

[Jetblue Flight 811]

Cool Bar in Santo Domingo denied us entry

 

[the gorgon]

Can you name a few of these clubs? It shouldn't be hard, as you say there are many.

i can think of two, right off the bat. one is the now defunct Bella Blu, and the other is the Loft. here is an outtake from an interview with Junot Diaz

ED Recently the Miami Herald published two articles. One, that was also run by the Associated Press, about the American embassy having to call out Dominican clubs for denying entry to its black American marines and other embassy staff. The other article was called ?Black Denial? and it was about the desire of most Dominicans not to be considered or called black