Dominican Immigrants in the U.S.: Poverty, Education and Welfare

[strangerinastrangeland]

Point #4:

The stats about business ownership is totally inaccurate. I see many, many Dominican bodegas, supermarkets and hair salons all over. I doubt they are not Dominican owned as well as Dominican operated. The fact that Dominicans set up shop in segregated New York neighborhoods where the populations are homogenous and the anti-hispanic sentiments very blatant is a wonderful testament to their work ethic and toughness. The environments are very often hostile for them, yet they hang in there with their equally tough business owners, the Arab grocer and the Chinese take-out restaurant owner. Another reason I find this to be dubious is that we all know how many Dominicans have a natural talent for business. I always thought of ourselves as the Jews of the Carribean and there may be more than just a grain of truth in that statement.

Additionally, Dominicans here have developed quite a reputation among Afro-Americans when it comes to doing ethnic hair. Consequently, these types of businesses are a dime a dozen and thrive in these neighborhood.

Point #5:

Second generation Dominicans in NY have the greatest number of college graduates than any other immigrant group yet, if you believe the stats, there is little movement up the socioeconomic ladder. Either the stats are wrong or the racism and oppression in this part of the country is egregious. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, I believe.

I can't find the particular posts about the rate of college graduation for 2nd gen Dominicans in NY, but I read it here on this forum.

 

[GringoCArlos]

Education stats are in the report I posted.

 

[strangerinastrangeland]

Good looking out. Please post the title of that thread.

 

[strangerinastrangeland]

Pont #6:

I do not think I am going way too out on a limb here when I suggest that, as Vacara has observed, certain communities are targeted to be Food Stamps recipients. There are many Spanish language ads urging people to apply and the process is facilitated with Spanish speaking social service caseworkers.

I think the logic being that if you subjugate a people, socially and economically, it is in your best interest not to make like so hard for them that they will be forced to turn to violent crime or drug trafficking. Not good for business, or tourism and it puts a strain on municpal finances that have to pay for police, etc. Also, I have observed that when the minority population density becomes too high in a targeted geographical area where they want to make a killling in real estate by gentrifying it, you will start to see Erik Estrada, that Pied Piper of poverty, pitching "la buena vida" in Arkansas or Florida. Coincidence? Nope.

So, look out Washington Heights residents as that area is definitely in the crosshairs. I do not think it is coincidental that Section 8 in NY is nearly impossible to get now except in extreme cases. It has been that way for years. Deliberately calculated move? You're damn skippy!!!

 

[bienamor]

Question

Pont #6:

I do not think I am going way too out on a limb here when I suggest that, as Vacara has observed, certain communities are targeted to be Food Stamps recipients. There are many Spanish language ads urging people to apply and the process is facilitated with Spanish speaking social service caseworkers.

I think the logic being that if you subjugate a people, socially and economically, it is in your best interest not to make like so hard for them that they will be forced to turn to violent crime or drug trafficking. Not good for business, or tourism and it puts a strain on municpal finances that have to pay for police, etc. Also, I have observed that when the minority population density becomes too high in a targeted geographical area where they want to make a killling in real estate by gentrifying it, you will start to see Erik Estrada, that Pied Piper of poverty, pitching "la buena vida" in Arkansas or Florida. Coincidence? Nope.




So, look out Washington Heights residents as that area is definitely in the crosshairs. I do not think it is coincidental that Section 8 in NY is nearly impossible to get now except in extreme cases. It has been that way for years. Deliberately calculated move? You're damn skippy!!!

Have you ever been to arkansas, colorado, utah or any of the other states than NY, better yet how much of NY state have you see. Its a big country, and your letting you racist beliefs overshadow everything else. its not all bad, Now I will say that the 2 best places in NYC for me is either airport.

 

[Vacara]

Have you ever been to arkansas, colorado, utah or any of the other states than NY, better yet how much of NY state have you see. Its a big country, and your letting you racist beliefs overshadow everything else. its not all bad, Now I will say that the 2 best places in NYC for me is either airport.

What racist belief?, did I miss something?

 

[bienamor]

yes

What racist belief?, did I miss something?

This is only from this thread, want some other examples from when she and popnychic were going back and forth. Seems like everything is somebody else's fault. or Dominicans are discriminated against, every other group is holding Dominicans back. Take some responsibility, that included both on the island and where ever else your living(your being the figurative your not you specific, also any group).

Compounding the problem is the racism encountered that deliberately steer Dominicans into specific, low-paying jobs like home health aide or security guard

Many Dominicans in NY, foreign or native born, encounter tremendous systematic racism from both the black AND white comunities who do not allow or desire Latinos to progress.

It is almost as if affirmative action opened the door for Afro-Americans and they have used it to actively keep Latinos out and so, employment options are very, very limited

would bet that the percentage is so high because there is a disproportianate amount of EMPLOYED, MINIMUM WAGE Dominican workers receiving Food Stamps.

Thirdly, in the case of the Jamaican stats, it is interesting how certain ethnic groups fare better socially and economically if they can "pass" for either white or black in this polarized society.

The fact that Dominicans set up shop in segregated New York neighborhoods where the populations are homogenous and the anti-hispanic sentiments very blatant is a wonderful testament to their work ethic and toughness

I think the logic being that if you subjugate a people, socially and economically, it is in your best interest not to make like so hard for them that they will be forced to turn to violent crime or drug trafficking.

have observed that when the minority population density becomes too high in a targeted geographical area where they want to make a killling in real estate by gentrifying it

 

[GringoCArlos]

strangerinastrangeland: See my Post #30 in this thread for the education info

 

[Vacara]

This is only from this thread, want some other examples from when she and popnychic were going back and forth. Seems like everything is somebody else's fault. or Dominicans are discriminated against, every other group is holding Dominicans back. Take some responsibility, that included both on the island and where ever else your living(your being the figurative your not you specific, also any group).

Compounding the problem is the racism encountered that deliberately steer Dominicans into specific, low-paying jobs like home health aide or security guard

Many Dominicans in NY, foreign or native born, encounter tremendous systematic racism from both the black AND white comunities who do not allow or desire Latinos to progress.

It is almost as if affirmative action opened the door for Afro-Americans and they have used it to actively keep Latinos out and so, employment options are very, very limited

would bet that the percentage is so high because there is a disproportianate amount of EMPLOYED, MINIMUM WAGE Dominican workers receiving Food Stamps.

Thirdly, in the case of the Jamaican stats, it is interesting how certain ethnic groups fare better socially and economically if they can "pass" for either white or black in this polarized society.

The fact that Dominicans set up shop in segregated New York neighborhoods where the populations are homogenous and the anti-hispanic sentiments very blatant is a wonderful testament to their work ethic and toughness

I think the logic being that if you subjugate a people, socially and economically, it is in your best interest not to make like so hard for them that they will be forced to turn to violent crime or drug trafficking.

have observed that when the minority population density becomes too high in a targeted geographical area where they want to make a killling in real estate by gentrifying it

I still don't see how what she said is racist, isn't racism "discrimination based on color or physical appearance"?, where is she advocating that?, at the most you can accuse her of "playing the race card"; which is exactly what you're doing and that is the easiest way to get Robert slam shut the door on any thread.

 

[strangerinastrangeland]

Readers of this thread: The poster, Bienamor, a self-proclaimed "redneck", has suggested on another thread that I go back where I came from. Classic projection.

No personal questions will be answered Bienamor, so your baiting is a huge waste of time.

No further commentary.

 

[Kajuilito]

I dont understand how racism against hispanics in the U.S. accounts for Dominicans being the most likely of all hispanics to be on welfare. If anything, Dominicans are more likely to be able to fit a polarized profile than, say, all the Central and South Americans who will generally never look white or black. They can only ever pass for Hispanic and nothing else.

So, if racism was really at the core, Central and South Americans would lead the welfare pack and Dominicans would fare a tad better as at least some would pass as African American.

Also, I believe the numbers for self-employed Dominicans is inaccurate mostly because any Dominicans do own and operate bodegas but their partners names tend to be on ownership and tax forms. I met over a dozen all over NYC who did their business under the table that way. It seems to be a common scheme. Minimal tax reporting too. There are also a ton of Dominican lottery bancas being run underground all over NYC that rake in lots of money. Heck, I even knew a few with cockfighting in the basements of the buildings they were Supers for. We have more money than the American government knows about.

And greed and abuse of power is the #1 problem right now in the DR. It's most definitely not a long gone sentiment. It accounts for the government corruption, the drug trafficking thats being allowed to go off without a hitch, the law enforcement problems, the lack of funds for the necessary social reforms. It's all going in individuals pockets who assume if they have access to it, they should take it.

 

[GKLSY]

Does anyone think "Dominican time" might have anything to do with Dominicans being employable? I live in the Northeast and employees are expected to be at work on time (American time). If they are habitually late, they are fired. The more times you are fired, the more limited your job opportunities become. I realize this would not impact Dominican's getting "good" jobs (although it could impact their ability to advance), but I think it could impact getting/keeping "a" job. Also, I don't think that Dominicans living in the DR have any realistic idea of how hard Americans actually work for or, maybe more accurately, what we sacrifice, to get what we have. By this I mean social life (not going out partying every night in order to get up and go to work on time the next day), family life (not being able to leave work for every family "emergency"), pride (accepting the idea of taking a job "below" you to gain experience, work history, etc.). Being from the Northeast, I am used to a commute of 1 hr. each way (more in snow & ice storms). My Dominican friends could not believe that I would travel so far to get a better job than was available closer to home. Are my friends the exception, or is traveling to get a better job an idea that is not reasonable in the Dominican culture?

 

[bienamor]

Depends I guess

Does anyone think "Dominican time" might have anything to do with Dominicans being employable? I live in the Northeast and employees are expected to be at work on time (American time). If they are habitually late, they are fired. The more times you are fired, the more limited your job opportunities become. I realize this would not impact Dominican's getting "good" jobs (although it could impact their ability to advance), but I think it could impact getting/keeping "a" job. Also, I don't think that Dominicans living in the DR have any realistic idea of how hard Americans actually work for or, maybe more accurately, what we sacrifice, to get what we have. By this I mean social life (not going out partying every night in order to get up and go to work on time the next day), family life (not being able to leave work for every family "emergency"), pride (accepting the idea of taking a job "below" you to gain experience, work history, etc.). Being from the Northeast, I am used to a commute of 1 hr. each way (more in snow & ice storms). My Dominican friends could not believe that I would travel so far to get a better job than was available closer to home. Are my friends the exception, or is traveling to get a better job an idea that is not reasonable in the Dominican culture?

having worked mainly with IT, Marketing, Accounting types here, The only time we had problems was with meeting attendance. As far as work ethic, the company I was working here for required schedules to be meet! When we sent people to the US for training, working late, getting to work on time not a problem. These were normally train the trainer, so when they came back they had better be able to pass on the knowledge.

Knowing some in these fields that moved to the US, moving later to advance was not a problem, they understood this very well. They learned to job hop with the best of them. Also for the most part they applied for citizenship, opting not to stay with green card status.

 

[strangerinastrangeland]

Kajuilito,

No, no, no, no, no Kajuilito, Dominicans do not lead the pack in WELFARE, but in social services. There is a big distinction between a minimum wage earner needing to supplement his income and one that wishes to live off of welfare. There is no shame for an honest day's pay for an honest day's work, even if it is minimum wage. My point was the number of disproportionately high number of employed, minimum wage earning Dominicans receiving FOOD STAMPS are more than likely skewing the results and painting an unfavorable picture of Dominicans in general.

On the polarizaition angle, you are missing the variables of the willingness or ability of the Dominican in question to "pass" as Afro-American or white American. They must "pass" by speaking the language of the dominant group, losing the accent, etc. This is easier said than done since not all people have access to higher education or are allowed to mingle unobstrutively in areas that are polarized. It is not enough to "look" the part or want to "play" the part, you have to be able to "act" the part as well. Not everyone can pull that off. Also, the dominant group that you wish to gain acceptance from must be willing to allow access. That can get very tricky and vary from state to state, region to region. On the other hand, some Latin American cultural groups are less willing to assimilate than others. You can not compare apples to oranges. It is way more complex than that.

As for Central and South Americans, they too are victims of subjugation. How many are raising the children, washing the cars, mowing the lawns, cleaning the homes? Are they intellectually inferior that they can do no better? Hardly. I really can't speak on precisely why they have less people on the public dole but it might have something to do with the eligibility criteria to obtain services. However, in all fairness with Food Stamps being a Federal program, I suspect the criteria for eligibiltiy should be uniform and not vary state to state. Bear in mind the data was not broken down by type of social service and remember, we are dealing with demographics that are regional. I am not stating that Dominicans may or may not be more or less inclined to exploit social service programs. I just do not think that the conclusion drawn should be that our work ethic is poor or that we have no ambition. Not at all. I also made the points that the data should be viewed within the context of the social problems Dominicans in the Northeast face. This is not a denial about some of the bad behavior. Simply put, data can be manipulated. Did rampant abuse of the system by Dominicans exist in up until the Clinton revision of welfare? Yup. That was then and this is now.

You make very good points about the business schemes and business ownership slight of hand.

 

[strangerinastrangeland]

Speaking very straighforwardly, this is the very first time I have ever heard of "Dominican time" from anyone anywhere. I have heard of "black peoples' time" (absolutely no offense intended from me, sorry) as being a very derogatory comment about African-Americans but I wasn't aware of it, have never experienced it and have personally never observed it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Speaking very straighforwardly, this is the very first time I have ever heard of "Dominican time" from anyone anywhere. I have heard of "black peoples' time" (absolutely no offense intended from me, sorry) as being a very derogatory comment about African-Americans but I wasn't aware of it, have never experienced it and have personally never observed it.

Stranger, 'Dominican Time' was one of the first phenomena I learned about 33+ years ago - and I heard it first from my Dominican husband [who is remarkably prompt, even early, for everything]. It aggravates him to no end that many/most Dominicans show up for dinner parties late, and if they tell you to be there at 9 pm, and you show up on time, you're too early. We've learned that if we want the family there at 9 we tell them to be there at 8. And if they tell us to be there at 9 we force ourselves to get there later, as much as it bothers us both :ermm:

Sometimes we joke with his brothers - and ask them if they want us there 'Dominican Time' or 'American Time'.

It's a cultural thing in DR, not meant to be insulting or offensive. It's just the way it is - most of the time.

 

[strangerinastrangeland]

Kajuilito, I think the American government actually does know the amount of money in the Domincan community but looks the other way so that the region does not destabilize politically. It is no secret that a good % of that money goes back to the DR. How much of the drug trafficking $$$$ of the 80's and 90's and the social service $$$$ do you think fueled the economy? Sad and ashamed to say, but my guess is plenty.

The American gov't is very savvy geopolitically.

 

[strangerinastrangeland]

Is that a fact? Thanks for making me aware of my own cultural's values to me. I must have been living under a rock all these years. I had no idea. Is that a fact or merely a perception/bias filtered through a non-Dominican's (Italian's???) mind? I have heard of complaints about many islanders (people from the Caribbean) just being more laid back in general about time and work committments though. Is that what you are referring to?

 

[RGVgal]

I wonder if we took a poll of Dominican taxi drivers, bodega owners and other self-employed Dominican men and asked them how many of their spouses are on welfare, what the number would be? I bet it would be high. I think a lot of these "SAHM" are on public assistance.

 

[Kajuilito]

lol in the DR if someone says be there at 7, it means, it starts at at least 9! business meetings, job interviews, conferences, nothing is ever on time. always expect things to begin at least 1.5 hours after the time given.

however, people generally do get to work on time, albeit maybe 10-15 minutes late.

so that is a definite part of our culture in DR-- the tardiness and lackadaisical attitude but we are just more relaxed about things in general like any island folks.

people still do their jobs, but its alot like in the american south. they are slower and more relaxed about it in general.

i cannot say i have ever seen that cross over to the u.s. however. it seems dominicans usually know that wont fly here and quickly adjust to american time.

and to the poster who said many business owners are on social assistance, very true. i alone know a good unrelated dozen spread thru the u.s. who own businesses and collect some kind of assistance thru their wives. i find it hard to believe they are exceptions. i think its seen by some as normal and smart to con the system in that manner.