How is my statement irrelevant? Are you suggesting that the DR put themselves in more debt to help Haiti?....The same ones who condemn the DR for not helping are the same one who can help but don't want to commit. Anything to do with Haiti is a multi-year deal to which the DR can't commit to.....That's like me paying my neighbors mortgage and not my own.
- Thread starter NALs
- Start date
DR Leaves Inter-American Court of Human Rights
How is my statement irrelevant? Are you suggesting that the DR put themselves in more debt to help Haiti?....The same ones who condemn the DR for not helping are the same one who can help but don't want to commit. Anything to do with Haiti is a multi-year deal to which the DR can't commit to.....That's like me paying my neighbors mortgage and not my own.
The reason that this Inter American court made the decision against the DR is simply that the DR is the only country in the Americas, Canada,Usa, Central America and south America that does not automatically permit babies of any parentage to be of the nationality where they were born, However virtually no other country in the world permits this method of nationality but bases nationality on parentage , So only blood counts and not the location of the birth .
I do not see why we should not follow Europe rather than the USA in determining the methodology of who will be or who will not be Dominicans .So I am glad we have said ADIOS to this inter american court and so we follow Trinidad and Venezuela out of the court.
I do not see why we should not follow Europe rather than the USA in determining the methodology of who will be or who will not be Dominicans .So I am glad we have said ADIOS to this inter american court and so we follow Trinidad and Venezuela out of the court.
Kipling333 well said... Third world as well as emerging economies can't absorb the cost. No one has money. Most here see it as suffering people and I get that and I do feel sorry for them. But the "REAL DEAL" is a return on investment. It's sad to say that no one will step up and help them without some sort of guaranteed return on investment.
That's not it, because Haiti also denies Haitian citizenship upon birth to any kid born to foreign parents on Haitian soil even if the foreign parents are there legally.
Cuba doesn't even have jus solis, a person can only acquire Cuban nationality upon birth by descent. Its not clear to me if this also applies to Cubans outside of Cuba, particularly those in South Florida descendants of the 'enemies' of the Cuban Revolution.
I know that for a time in Haiti's history, when an anti-mulatto policy was enacted by the Haitian government that resulted in mass emigration of Haitian mixed race people (one of several mass emigrations that the Haitian government forced upon them), the Haitian constitution was changed to say that the son or daughter born abroad to Haitian parents is Haitian only if the child was black. Guess what happened to the children born abroad to mixed race Haitians?
Colombia also has a condition regarding nationality by jus solis, which doesn't applies to illegal immigrants there.
Anyway, the DR isn't the only country in this hemisphere to put conditions in the acquisition of nationality upon birth.
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The Dominican government described the ruling as "unacceptable" and "biased." The recent ruling even ordered the Dominican Republic to restore Dominican citizenship to William Medina after the Central Electoral Board (JCE) proved it had been issued irregularly. (falsified documents)
The Inter-American Human Rights Court can go to hell!
The Inter-American Human Rights Court can go to hell!
Obviously DR did not foresee second or third order of effects with this decision. So good for them.
My 2 cents.
My 2 cents.
What the Africans did in Africa regarding the prisoners of war they sold into slavery (as oppose to killing them, which was the custom before the 'business opportunity' popped up) has absolutely nothing to do with this.
From the very beginning of the colonial period, the Spanish considered anyone that adopted a majority of Spanish lifestyles and ways as Spanish, even if they were Amerindians. The mestizo (Spanish+indian) population that began to appear 9 months after the first arrival of Columbus, was automatically Spanish because they often adopted the culture of their fathers and their Taino mothers often had adopted many Spanish ways too mixed with some Taino influences.
Once the Africans were brought and mixed with the local population, they too were considered Spanish as long as they were free. In fact, the first person of color to arrive in this hemisphere was a mulatto that arrived as a free Spaniard in Columbus' expedition.
Moreau de Saint-Mery was a rich French slave owner from Martinique and he visited the island of Santo Domingo and spent months in the Spanish and French parts at the end of the 18th century. In his writings about the Dominican society he found at the time, he clearly states that the free people of color were few compared to the whites but numerous compared to the slaves, meaning that most of the Spanish population was free. He also said that the constitution of the Spanish colony made no distinction between the rights of the whites and of the free people of color. He also explicitly wrote that the treatment of the slaves in the Spanish part of the island was of a mildness unknown in the colonies of other European countries and that this relaxed attitude towards the slaves eliminated the bar between the whites and the people of color that was such as big problem in other colonies. He also said that the treatment the Spanish population gave its slaves was akin to companions rather than actual slaves. He said that the Spanish government even allowed many free people of color in important positions in the government and in the Catholic church, which were the most prestigious positions of the society.
This last part was also obvious with some high ranking priests. Antonio S?nchez Valverde, one of the most famous Dominicans from the colonial era, went to Madrid to finish his official studies and wrote as a Spanish because he was one despite his racial mixture. There are many other important non-white figures of the colonial period that gained the respect and admiration of the community or had access high ranking positions. The famous priest Juan V?squez from Santiago, who in the Haitian invasion and massacre of 1805 was burned alive in the chorus of the main church, was also mulatto. He wrote the famous quintet that goes "Ayer espa?ol nac?, a la tarde fui franc?s, etc."
Mr. Arredondo Pichardo wrote about the events that took place in Santiago that he witnessed in the Haitian invasion of 1805 mentions several people of color that were either given positions of power by the then mostly white Santiago population (for example, Serapio Reynoso del Orbe was voted by the Santiagueros to be their leader and defender, he was a mulatto from La Vega) or were sacrificed by the Haitian hoards during the massacre (for example, he mentions of a well known mulatto man by the name of Francisco Pimentel that was killed by several bayonet wounds that the Haitians put in him right at the main door of the church) or that were saved by the Spanish mulatto Jos? Campos Tav?res (for example, Campos Tav?res reaches on time a priest and a group of people that a group of Haitian soldiers had gathered by the Yaque River and were already demeaning them prior to ordering the Haitian army to kill them; Campos Tav?res interrupts the occasion and manages to convince the Haitians that these people shouldn't be sacrificed. Arrendondo Pichardo says, word-for-word, that the priest was kept as a prisoner and the people of color that were going to be sacrificed with him were set free.)
Years later, the Spanish attitude towards considering the free people of color as Spaniards becomes legally evident. In 1812 Spain puts in effect its first national constitution in which it clearly defined the territorial extent of the Spanish dominion, in which it clearly states the Spanish part of the island of Santo Domingo. In the article where it describes who are Spanish nationals, there are two sections that makes it very clear that the free people of color were Spanish too. The first section says that Spanish are all the people born and living anywhere in the Spanish dominion, and it makes no reference to color, race, or even to having Spanish blood, even though most of the population in the Spanish Empire was mixed with Spanish blood and Santo Domingo was no exception to this. The fourth section says that anyone that gains his freedom in any of the Spanish dominions immediately becomes a Spanish national. This section clearly refers to those that are freed from slavery and, again, it makes no mention of color. Bottom line is that the Spanish thought nothing of accepting non-whites as Spanish nationals and, in fact, everyone except the slaves were considered Spanish nationals.
Even Jean Price Mars, who was the most celebrated Haitian historian of the 20th century, described the invasion of 1805 and said that Dessalines tortured and killed the whites for being white and the people of color that he considered to be white, not because of their color but because of their sentiments and objection to the suffering he imposed on the white population. A century before Price Mars, Arredondo Pichardo says that not even the people of color that rejected to be part of the despair were spared of the rapes, tortures, and murders by the Haitian soldiers. Delmonte y Tejada, also a contemporary of these events, said that the Haitian soldiers made no distinction of race, color, class, or sex during the atrocities they committed through out the Spanish side of the island. Most of the Spanish people of color were free, had cordial relations with the whites, many were married to whites or had white family members/friends; and the slave minority was, for the most part, treated well enough to not cause racial resentments. The Haitians never understood this!
To all of this are added the mistreatment the Dominican population suffered during the Haitian Domination from 1822 to 1844, because once Boyer had secured his power over the east he completely disregarded all of his promises. Of all the atrocities committed, the worse one was the Negro Code that Boyer put in place island-wide in his attempts to increase the agricultural exports. This code basically reintroduced the French-style slavery in everything but name and the Haitian population was greatly displeased because it reminded them of the times they were slaves of the French. While the Haitians associated the policies with Boyer's government, the Dominicans associated the policy with the Haitians. And for Dominicans this code was especially hard, because not even the minority of Dominicans that were slaves in the past were subjected to such a rigid and harsh regiment. For this reason one of the accusations Dominicans make of the Haitian invasion of 1822 is that they came to enslave the Dominican people. Most of the Haitian leaders put to govern the various towns also abused their power, even though some were fair with the population and, as a consequence, they earned their respect. This was the case with the Haitian general that was put in charge of La Vega, who's desire was that once he die his heart to be buried in the central plaza (Duarte Park) and his heart was buried there in a box and supposedly the box is still buried there next to the main cathedral. Many policies were put in place by that Haitians that greatly displeased the Dominican population, among which can be cited the closure of Santo Domingo's university, which was a source of great pride due to being the first university in America and because Boyer had mentioned how impressed he was the student body before he ordered its closure. Another policy that greatly displeased the Dominican population was the prohibition of the Spanish language and we can see how well that policy worked, because Dominicans refused to learn French and to this very day most Dominicans don't speak it!
Once the independence movement takes hold and the separation is done on the 27th of February, 1844; the Dominican government sent several letters to the Haitian government letting them know that the separation had taken place and that, in the interest of maintaining the peace between the two governments and the two populations, the Dominican government was interested in signing several treaties of peace and commerce with Haiti. Haiti didn't sent a response, greatly insulting the Dominican governing junta, and when the messengers arrived in Santo Domingo city from the border with the news that the Haitian army had crossed the border and were marching towards Santo Domingo, and that all Dominican civilians captured along the way were physically mistreated and the towns pillaged and burnt, that the Haitian soldiers were determined to put the entire Dominican population through the sword; the Dominican government made the declaration of war by land and sea to Haiti.
The Dominican war of independence was not just a defense of our political independence, it was also a defense of our right to live. The Haitian government maintained its determination to pass the entire Dominican population through the sword including men, women, and children; civilian and military men; white, mulatto, and black. In their attempt of accomplishing this, the Haitian made several armed invasions between 1844 and 1856.
In 1859 a new invasion was planned but never executed because the Haitian army did a successful coup that removed Emperor (yes, emperor!) Faustin The First from power. Faustin had promised to kill the entire Dominican population as 'hogs,' and he would had done that because when he was a teenager he was part of Dessalines' army and took part in all the pillaging and massacres in Haiti and also in the campaign of the east in 1805.
In the 1850's, Haiti sent a delegation to Europe to make the case against the recognition of the Dominican Republic as an independent and sovereign country.
In the 1870's, Haiti took it upon itself to spread propaganda in the USA to give the impression the Dominican population was against the annexation attempt the USA was entertaining at that time, when in fact most Dominicans were in favor of annexation.
During that same time Haiti also supported through encouragement, arms, and money; all Dominican rebels and they were the reason revolutions took place all the time, effectively destabilizing the country multiple times within a given year.
After dictator's Heareaux's death in 1899, Haiti made a large purchase of a special arms called European Carabines (carabinas europeas) and these were the arms that appeared through out the DR in the ensuing instability and basically civil war that lasted on and off from 1899 all the way to 1916, ending only with the intervention of the United States Marines. These guns were known in the Dominican countryside as belgas-haitianas, clearly hinting who supplied them to Dominican rebels.
In recent years we see how Haiti's government is very quick to send delegations around the world whenever it wants multiple countries to take an anti-Dominican stance. The Haitian government sent people as faraway as Europe and as close as Saint Vincent and the Grenadines in order to influence the international reaction to the sentence of Constitutional Tribunal regarding nationality and the regularization of foreigners.
Conclusion
1. To be considered as a Spanish national was not based on race or color. A person could had 0% Spanish blood and they could still be Spanish nationals as long as they were not slaves, and the slaves would become a Spanish national upon gaining their freedom. Most white Spanish in Santo Domingo were not slave owners and treatment with the population of color was mostly cordial. Most colored Spanish in Santo Domingo were not slaves and even though some owned slaves, relations were also cordial. Hence, most of the Dominican population white and colored were Spanish.
2. When Haiti gains its independence from France, half of Haitians were born in Africa and most of the other half was only 2 or 3 generations born on the island. Over 80% of the population were slaves and, as such, were never French nationals. To make matters worse, the large presence of African-born people meant that there was a diversity of languages and culture among the blacks. This meant that the only thing the Haitians had in common at the moment of their liberation was their race, that's it. It should be of no surprise that race became the foundation of Haitian identity and, in fact, the only foreigners that could naturalize themselves as Haitians needed to be black as a first step. Haitian post-colonial history is nothing more than multiple massacres of blacks against mulattoes and back and forth color/racial bickering.
The Spanish (of all colors ) became Dominicans; the slaves of the French became Haitian. The Spanish had one language, one culture, one religion regardless of race or color; the slaves of the French had multiple African languages and multiple African cultures; the one thing the slaves of the French had in common was that they were all black.
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Nals, did yoou write the above post in reply to this threadd or did u have that piece already to go.
I am going to take a history class for fun and I will be relying on your posts.
thanks again.
I am going to take a history class for fun and I will be relying on your posts.
thanks again.
Today they come for the Haitians. Tomorrow they come for you. Human rights, once ignored by the government, cannot be restored for anyone. I'd be really concerned if I didn't know that thousands of Dominicans are fighting for justice and censure of this atrocious government policy. Fifteen expats agree that Haitians should have no rights. All that means is that the people here don't care about anything except themselves.
You are wrong, this has to do with the Constitution of the Dominican Republic and the court
of human rights has no right in ordering the DR to change its Constitution to benefit illegal Haitians.
And I can tell you that, yes, I know you are Haitian, the majority of Dominicans support and
stand by the Constitution and are in favor of the DR withdrawing from the court of human rights.
of human rights has no right in ordering the DR to change its Constitution to benefit illegal Haitians.
And I can tell you that, yes, I know you are Haitian, the majority of Dominicans support and
stand by the Constitution and are in favor of the DR withdrawing from the court of human rights.
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“
Instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in the face of a ruling by an international court they do not agree with, the authorities in the Dominican Republic should focus their energy on ensuring the rights of every person living in the country are protected. This must start with complying with the judgement of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.
”
Erika Guevara Rosas, Americas Director at Amnesty International.
Instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in the face of a ruling by an international court they do not agree with, the authorities in the Dominican Republic should focus their energy on ensuring the rights of every person living in the country are protected. This must start with complying with the judgement of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.
”
Erika Guevara Rosas, Americas Director at Amnesty International.
It means the Haitian government should look after Haitians. Haitian have rights, but not the right to citizenship without paperwork and due process. It is hardly the Dominican governments fault that these people came and stayed illegally, other than they should have kicked them out immediately.
People in general do care. We are talking about illegals. Not about the country of origin. Your statement infers that the Dominican Government does not or should not have the right to govern themselves. Read the original posters question."Do you agree with the Constitutional Tribunal's decision to remove the DR"?. I see no where in that statement referring to Haitians. Or did I miss something.
To all the bleeding heart liberals ask your home country to take in all the Haitians and leave the Dominican Republic to govern themselves.
gabriela, if you did not notice DR is one fat f?ckup. if SD was hit with 7 quake instead of PauP it would be just as disastrous. DR barely manages to help their own people (it does not, really). there is no room for international charity when your own people live in shacks. i agree that plan de regularizacion should be extended, maybe 5 years would be more suitable. but DR cannot shoulder the responsibility of saving another nation. if USA and europe are so concerned they can put haitians on their no-visa travel list and have all of them move there. but it is easier to bash DR than take any constructive action.
In Europe during middle age, slavic , anglo-saxons , scandinavians, iberians etc, were sold to the muslim world (Tunisia, Morocco, Algiers, Timbuctoo in Mali, Iraq, Iran) as slaves and it was Europeans who sold them. The muslim word had a lot of gold ( from Syria, Egypt and mostly from the Sudan region), and Europeans would sold their own people for this gold.
Italians (Genoans and Venitians) were specialized in the white slave trade in the black sea region in the middle age, and they would sold these slaves to Egypt, to the Turks etc. Because of their slave traders activities , they were excommunicated many times by the Popes.
These Europeans slaves were also sold in Spain : Cordoba, Tarragona, Toleda etc. And Almeria was the slave port who received these slavic slaves, Almeria was also the place where they were prepared to be eunuchs.
The very word "Slave" came from the latin "Sclavus" which pointed to the slavic tribes enslaved by the German kings (and other Europeans tribes) in the 9th century. It is also the root of all the European words to design a man without freedom or a slave (Esclavo, Escravo, Schiavi, Esclave etc).
Prague, Kiev, Itil, Mayence, Coblence, Bristol, Verdun, Narbonne, Lyon, Barcelone, Almeria etc, were all slave trade centers in Europe : European slaves sold to North Africa ,Muslim Spain, and the Middle East (Arabia, Iraq, Iran etc)
And White European slaves were sold to PR and Santo DOmingo at the beginning of the colonization (until the 18th century in Cuba where Greek Slaves were to be sold)
Catholic Medieval Spain when they kicked out the moors enslaved hundred thousands of Europeans : Greeks , Sardinians, Circassians, Russians, Turks, Slavic people etc.
These facts are EXTENSIVELY documented in Europe: The European slave trade of European slaves preceded the African Slave Trade which replaced it in the 15th century.
When Amnesty International is concerned, there is something wrong with a country's action. Deal with the Haitian tragedy fairly (though many undocumented Haitians were actually born in the DR long before the earthquake) or remember that when people have nothing to lose, innocent people die. As for my being Haitian, I'm still laughing at that one. My grandfather used to administer Sosua--Calle Bruno Philipp is named after him. Sosua was a place of refuge for the dehumanized Jews. But of course, we were white.