mofongoloco said:
Seems like Nals wants an unvarnished warts and all timeline of haiti's role as an aggressor from a dominican perspective. He like the voice of contemporaries better than historians and intellectuals. Although he clearly has advanced academic training. Yeah he is harsh. But he is thorough.
Haiti was an aggressor practically through out the 19th century and this is documented, whether K-Mel wants to accept that or not is irrelevant. I'm pretty much done discussing this with him, because he continues to ignore what actually happened as explained by the people that lived it.
Aggressions (by the way, in the 17th and 18th centuries (1600's-1700's) the aggressors were the French and even Moreau de Saint-Mery said that he thought the Spanish would never forgive the French for what they did, meaning settling the western coast and everything that has ensued since then):
1801: The Haitians (nominally in name of France, but a year later the 'real' French arrive and Toussaint loses his grip on the eastern part of the island and is even removed from the island by the 'real' French in chains and taken to France practically as a prisoner for disobeying Napoleon with this invasion) invade the Spanish territory
against the will of the people and also of the French government too.
1804: Dessalines declares the independence of Haiti, claims that Haiti encompassed the entire island plus the adjacent ones, and declares himself as emperor for life. Dessalines disregards several realities that makes this act, pertaining to his suppose authority over the Spanish portion, an act of aggression. (A) He ignores that all the Spanish towns in the eastern and interior of the island were under French control and by
the will of the people. (B) Haiti was not recognized as an independent and sovereign state until the second half of 19th century, so everything Dessalines et al claimed was illegitimate for the rest of the world including for the people in the eastern and interior of the island. As far as France (and the rest of the world) was concerned, the whole island was politically French but the western coast was in a state of rebellion that eventually would be pacified by the French authorities (this never happened.) The island hardly had any French (roughly 2,000 in the Spanish part and most of the remaining French civilians in the western coast were slaughtered shortly after the declaration of Haitian independence.) The western coast was flooded with the ex-slaves of the French and the human presence on the rest of the island was basically Spanish; and neither the Haitians nor the Spanish considered themselves French nor wanted to be French. The Haitians wanted to be Haitians (and they wanted the Dominicans to be Haitians too), the Dominicans wanted to be Spanish, and the few French wanted to destroy the Haitians by using the Dominicans to do the fighting and on the ashes of this endeavor, they waned to use the island as the stepping stone for a new French empire that was to encompass much of the Caribbean and lands on the continent too.
1805: Dessalines, under his belief that he truly had control of the entire island, invades the Spanish part with the initial intention of expelling the last 2,000 or so French that were governing the Spanish portion. The French was the only real power on the island and it was a challenge to his authority over the insular territory not only because the French had a physical presence on the island, but also because the population on the Spanish part sided with the French and rejected Dessalines' authority. Dessalines himself doesn't fully understand that the population on the Spanish part reject his authority until he marches into the territory and notices that as he passed through several towns, the towns themselves were deserted because the people fled to the forest. When Dessalines passes through Bani, witnessing the same situation, his confusion as to why the Spanish population fled from the towns cleared and he understood that the Spanish population had sided with the French. The French were his enemy, the Spanish population sided with his enemy so he considered the Spanish population his enemy too. By this point the population of the east was doomed regardless if Dessalines would had captured Santo Domingo because he was an unforgivable vengeful man. The Spanish population rejected his rule and even when this became clear, he insisted on subjugating them by attempting to capture Santo Domingo from the French authorities. He failed because a confusion that arose when a French boat was seen sailing off the city of Santo Domingo (remember that the area near the colonial part of Santo Domingo slopes upwards and increases the visibility of the sea from very short distances away from the coast), thinking that it was headed for the defenseless ports on the Haitian side of the island. Because of this, Dessalines decides to retreat back to Haiti and orders his military to kill all the inhabitants found along the way, pillage and burn the towns, take some prisoners to the west; destroy the rural settlements too, etc. Once Dessalines arrives in Cap Haitien and becomes aware that it was a mistake from his part, because the French boat was actually heading to France and not to Haiti, Dessalines felt prideful and boasted (according to Price-Mars) for ordering the destruction of the civilian population of the east. The details of this are present in the previous pages of this thread in both Spanish and French! Price-Mars says it best, he hated the white French and he associated the Spanish population with the white French, his eternal enemies, and for that he wanted to show them the strength of this vengeance. Dessalines considered the entire population of the Spanish portion as white allied to the French (just as he considered any person of color that didn't join him as whites due to their sentiments) and the whites (real or by association) needed to be destroyed. Keep in mind that when Dessalines declares the independence of Haiti, in the constitution it clearly says that all the inhabitants of Haiti, regardless of their color, were to adopt and be referred to as blacks. A rejection of his rule was a rejection of Haiti's rule, and this, by consequence, was a rejection to be black (real or by association); that was his vision.
1822-1844: This is the Haitian Domination when the Spanish part was subjugated to the dictatorship of Jean Pierre Boyer. To see if the world considered this invasion as legitimate, all one has to do is notice the wording of the agreement between Boyer's government and France (a copy in French I posted in a previous page.) Also, the Spanish King contacted Boyer claiming that his invasion of the east was illegitimate and that he should return that property to the Spanish, who are the rightful owners. Boyer's rule a dictatorial despotism that in Haiti was associated with him but in the Spanish part it was associated with the Haitians. Boyer was hated island wide and this growing displeasure is what causes the oppressed Haitians to revolt against him in 1843 or very early 1844 and Boyer flees for Jamaica in an attempt to preserve his life because they associated Boyer's oppression with Boyer's government; while in February 1844 the oppressed population of the Spanish portion declares its separation from Haiti because they associated Boyer's oppression with the Haitians.
1844-1856: Haiti initiates the Dominican War of Independence (also known as the Dominican-Haitian War), which lasted 12 years; one of the longest wars of independence in America and possibly in the world. It was dragged out to so many years because Haiti didn't want to lose control of most of the island and the Haitian leaders had made the decision to ethnically clean the Spanish portion as well. This desire evident to the Dominican leaders (as is evident in the letters asking other countries for help -in the end no one helped-) and to the Dominican population that lived along the border region. For example, in 1845 took place one of the many failed invasion attempts, this time in Puerto Plata. The captured Haitian soldiers confessed to the Dominican army that they had orders to capture Puerto Plata by surprise at night, kill all males (adult and children) on the spot, kill the youngest females on the spot; tie the adult women by their hands in groups of two and conduct them to the Haitian boats to be taken to Cap Haitien, the teenage girls were to be taken by the Haitian soldiers to do as they pleased with them and to pillage the town as payment for their services in the Haitian invasion. Lastly, they were to also burn the entire town off the face of the earth. Haiti also sent a delegation to Europe that made the case against the recognition of the Dominican Republic by any other government.
1859: Haitian Emperor Faustin I pledges to invade the Dominicans once again, which would had extended to war of independence by 3 years. This didn't happen because Faustin suffered a military coup that removed him from power, but Faustin was determined to 'kill the eastern population as if they were hogs' and eliminate, once and for all, the obstacle the prevented island wide Haitian rule.
1870's: Haiti spreads rumors claiming that the Dominican population didn't want to be annexed by the United States, even though the Dominican population surely did. The reason the Dominican population wanted to be annexed to the United States are given in the U.S. Commission Report when they went all over the country writing down the opinion of the people. Time and again, the people said that they would prefer independence above all else, but since independence was not possible then they would prefer to be annexed to the United States. Independence was not possible because, as the American resident in the DR William Read said, eventually the Haitians would win. For many years before and after Haiti had supported with money and arms many rebels that disturbed the peace in the DR.
1899-1915/16: Haiti supports the Dominican rebels with money and arms (belgas-haitianas) which initiated basically a civil war with the rebels using what would later be called guerrilla warfare tactics.
1940-today: From about the 1940s (decade when Price-Mars influenced the Haitian intellectuals regarding the Dominicans and our desire to be separate from Haiti) Haitian intellectuals begin to entertain the idea that Dominican rejection of Haitian rule was rooted on racism while conveniently ignoring all the abuses the Haitians committed against the Dominican people. Price-Mars was the main figure in creating this belief, which later as the mulatto intellectuals left Haiti due to dictator Jean Claude Duvalier's racism against them, many of the Haitian intellectuals that held this idea took them abroad too and has influenced how some groups of foreigners view the Dominican Republic. To them, Dominican anti-Haitian sentiments is rooted in racism and not so much in the practically century long belligerence that has existed between the two countries, in essence the Haitians wanting to spread their rule to the east by acceptance or by force and the Dominicans wanting to limit Haitian rule to the original French part of the island (notice that Dominicans never intended to end Haiti's independence in complete contrast to the intentions of Haiti for the Dominicans.) Somehow we are suppose to also sweep under the rug the different political, social, and cultural origin of the Dominicans vis-a-vis Haiti's which is manifested in many ways, such as language, traditions, etc.
monfongoloco said:
But k-Mel, I don't get the name calling such as liar.
He has no argument other than quoting recent authors that he likes because they hold his vision. He rejects what the contemporaries of those times actually say because this is problematic for Haiti. It means accepting that Haiti was not legitimately recognized until practically half a century later and that everything that was done to the Dominicans in 1801, 1805, and 1822; on the belief that the island should be entirely Haitian, was illegitimate too. It means accepting what Samuel Hazard said in his 1871 book
Santo Domingo Past and Present with a Glance at Hayti (sic):
"Yet, not satisfied with her (Haiti's) own position and the regulation and improvement of her own people and affairs, Hayti (sic) presumes to interfere with her neighbor, Dominica (sic), furnishing the disturbers of its peace with assistance..." (p. 436)
mofongoloco said:
While I am amazed this thread hasn't gotten closed, I hope it stays open a little longer.
This tangent of a debate arose from a misconception that was created by another DR1er in the initial pages, and later came K-Mel thinking he has a solid argument. That he completely disregard what the contemporaries of those times (many of whom were foreigners to the DR or the island, so there is no conflict of interest in their descriptions of the societies they witnessed) is a testament that how things were on the ground effectively challenges what K-Mel thinks.
mofongoloco said:
Is there some polemical battle between you two? I am too dense to figure out what agendas, if any, you are advancing.
Not from my part. K-Mel is well known for defending the Haitian cause in this forum.
With this, the off-topic is put to a rest in this thread. Any additional comments regarding the off-topic will be erased and, if need be, the violator(s) will be reprimented.
