Haitian workers in the DR, and the condition of Haiti . . . is it getting better?

[Mr_DR]

QUOTE]
the sollution is to deport all haitians illigally and legally out the country, stop the school and hospital benefits and sue who employ haitians on constructions and houses. close the frontier.

Who will take on the construction jobs and who would build the houses... who who work the sugar cane fields??? Sure not a dominican!!![/QUOTE]

Why do you think Dominicans don't work construction anymore?
Why do you think Dominicans don't cut sugar canes?
It is certainly not because the pay went up for them when they
started to hire Haitians.

And are you trying to say also that all the Haitians there, are construction and sugar cane workers?

 

[Pib]

The only reason why sometimes I stop by these threads is to leave my disgust at these ideas on record, lest anyone stumble upon this thread searching for something and come to believe that we Dominicans are a bunch of genocidal lunatics.

I don't have at the moment the energy to start repeating whatever arguments I've posted ten zillion times here.

 

[Rosemary]

Quote :
" Ever heard of BB Guns or rubber bullets! Non lethal weapons! "

Rubber and /or plastic bullets Non Lethal !!! Like heck they are ! Try convincing families in Ireland and other countries, whose children and relatives are now buried in grave-yards or maimed for life by these type of bullets ! non lethal, my a$$ !!! They KILL !

 

[deelt]

Loco, thanks

Thanks for getting my back. At least there are some people that have sense in this thread.

Some of these negative postings really crack me up. There really is no ACCOUNTABILITY here. Nals, in particular, feels completely comfortable just spewing false accusations, creating pseudo images, and insinuating unsubstantiated affiliations, all with no transparency. I guess what I say to you or Lesley D or Chiri or other positive humanitarian thinkers really gets to him.

*Sigh*

Yeah, I agree with you. Not only does he need to check his logic but he also needs to look at the evolution of thread responses. Last time I checked I was speaking with like minded people. I've only directed an email to him once to say I wouldn't engage on this issue because of the level of ignorance exhibited here.

You can lead a bull to water but can't make him drink. God save us all from these people if they ever come to power....another Trujillo in the making.

Peace

You seriously need to check your logic.

All those lives that were forcefully terminated in the name of freedom or other superior goals were sacrificed because some leaders sought more power. All these revolutions did not solve anything. When people today in some parts of the world live better than in the past it is due to contiguous development and because people have learned something out of history and the errors made by mislead prior generations.

Grab a few thousand pages of history books about European history and start reading beginning with the medieval crucades up to the latest revolution that happened on 11/09/1989 in Germany. See something? No bullets, no tanks, no violence... Why? Maybe people have learned something...

 

[Marianopolita]

Deelt,

Well said. If you noticed I refrained from posting after I read Nals' comment about using non-lethal weapons etc. and the fact that he would shoot them is absolutely another level of ignorance. There is a saying in Spanish which I am sure you know: "En la vida no se debe porfiar con tercos" and that's the stance I have taken. Enough is enough. I read enough nonsense and I prefer to direct my energies to threads where I have a common interest with the posters and we can logically discuss and debate ideas rather than encourage hatred.

Regards,

Lesley D

Thanks for getting my back. At least there is some people that have sense in this thread.

Some of these negative postings really crack me up. There is really no ACCOUNTABILITY here. Nals, in particular, feels completely comfortable just spewing false accusations, creating pseudo images, and insinuating unsubstantiated affiliations, all with no transparency. I guess what I say to you or Lesley D or Chiri or other positive humanitarian thinkers really gets to him.

*Sigh*

Yeah, I agree with you. Not only does he need to check his logic but he also needs to look at the evolution of thread responses. Last time I checked I was speaking with like minded people. I've only directed an email to him once to say I wouldn't engage on this issue because of the level of ignorance exhibited here.

You can lead a bull to water but can't make him drink. God save us all from these people if they ever come to power....another Trujillo in the making.

Peace

 

[NALs]

You seriously need to check your logic.

All those lives that were forcefully terminated in the name of freedom or other superior goals were sacrificed because some leaders sought more power. All these revolutions did not solve anything. When people today in some parts of the world live better than in the past it is due to contiguous development and because people have learned something out of history and the errors made by mislead prior generations.

Grab a few thousand pages of history books about European history and start reading beginning with the medieval crucades up to the latest revolution that happened on 11/09/1989 in Germany. See something? No bullets, no tanks, no violence... Why? Maybe people have learned something...

In the end, its the soldiers fault for his/her involvement in such wars. No leader is more powerful over a person than the person's own mind.

Sure, leaders could tell you that you must join the army and must kill someone, but if you don't want to you don't do it. It might cost you your life because the leader might consider you a traitor, but that is the price for not wanting and not going to war.

However, people want to live so, they DECIDE to go along with the leader's demand.

I hear alot on DR1 about many DR1 members saying that Dominicans need to take responsibility. Now, I'm confused that the responsibility of a soldier is not in his hands? A soldier decided at one point to follow the orders, from that point forward its the soldier's responsibility. The order giver has partiall responsibility, but the soldier is the ultimate responsible person in such act.

That is why Nazi soldiers were prosecuted for crime against humanity. Most said they followed orders, but at some point they DECIDED to follow those orders.

So Locomoto, what are you talking about? That its okay to take responsibility sometimes and not at other times?

 

[NALs]

Some of these negative postings really crack me up. There is really no ACCOUNTABILITY here. Nals, in particular, feels completely comfortable just spewing false accusations, creating pseudo images, and insinuating unsubstantiated affiliations, all with no transparency. I guess what I say to you or Lesley D or Chiri or other positive humanitarian thinkers really gets to him.

Another proof that what I say HAS AN IMPACT ON DEELT AND OTHERS WHO ARE AFRAID THAT MY WAY OF THINKING IS MAKING SENSE, which for real patriotic Dominicans who see the problem before its too late, it should!

What you say Deelt doesn't really gets to me, what gets to me is how quickly you folks sucumb to failure. Failure not in the sense that you guys gave up, but in the sense that you guys stoped trying when you were beginning to have the biggest impact on the person you wanted to impact to begin with.

Think about that for a second!

Also, why do you like to use the word HUMANITARIAN alot? I mean, I know why, you want to make me seem less "humane" and yourself (and those like minded) more humane, thus making people more "warm hearted" towards your ideas. I got to hand it to you, that is a good strategy for getting those undecided minded folks into your bandwagon.

But, think about this. A humanitarian goes to a poor country and feeds the people there, literally. The humanitarian stands in front of a stewpot and hands out food. That sounds so humane and wonderful. The only problem is that its inefficient and creates dependence.

In the other hand, here comes this other person (whom you would probably consider inhumaine) and he forces these very same people to live by their means. That means they will have to starve for some time. Oh, that sounds so cruel, what an evil person that is, right?

Well, it just turns out that that person decided to not feed the people (thus they are starving) but to teach them how to defend and feed themselves. While they make a slight SACRIFICE of not eating, they are filling their brains with knowledge that will serve them well. Once they have full knowledge of how to denfend and feed themselves, the so called "evil helper" leaves forever, but the people he leaves behind now walk around with a filled belly!

The humanitarian leaves and the people it leaves behind go right back to starving!

Which is better, a nice image today but with dire consequences in the future, or being criticized to death but leaving a mark in this world that will be revised and fully understood once the impact has well gotten through?

Think about that for a second too!

Last time I checked I was speaking with like minded people.

Winston Churchill once said that the best way to measure a real leader's achievement is by the number of criticism it gets.

Hmm, why? Well, if you are not being criticized, you are not doing your job right! The point of being a leader is to create change in society AND to impose what's right for society. Those actions always bring out criticisms of some sort.

The fact that you and Lesley prefer to be in "like minded" groups is really weird for people that are trying to impose change in society! I thought people like you would immense yourselves in contradictory minded people to ensure and compare your ideas to that of their own. If your ideas were as "sound" and correct then they should be getting into the minds of the opposite minded person!

I guess you stopped digging three feet from gold! In other words, you people quit too easily, that is why you will never see any effect on society that you are trying to impose!

You can lead a bull to water but can't make him drink. God save us all from these people if they ever come to power....another Trujillo in the making.

I'm sure Duarte was another Trujillo and maybe even George Washington and those Americans who decided to fight with real bullets and under guerilla werfare to ensure their own survival and end the effect of Britain on their land. And the same could be said of the leaders of any country in the world.

Every system of government and society you see in effect today (good and bad) is a direct response to someone's "erratic" idea that may have seem so out of place and negative AT THAT TIME, BUT YIELDED THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY!

Whether you think this world is good or bad is irrelevant because the fact that you are able to think that without being prosecuted is due to those people who "went against the current and keeped going even when the current got tougher and tougher with obstacles along the way"!

 

[Chris]

Lots of rhetoric but nothing of real value..... I don't have the energy.

 

[Marianopolita]

Chris,

Not only that but I thought Nals would be at the border by now shooting. Lots of talk no action.

-Lesley D

Lots of rhetoric but nothing of real value..... I don't have the energy.

 

[NALs]

Chris,

Not only that but I thought Nals would be at the border by now shooting. Lots of talk no action.

-Lesley D

That's funny, I thought you were in Haiti telling Haitians that the DR is up for grabs!

 

[Marianopolita]

Whatever- carry on!

That's funny, I thought you were in Haiti telling Haitians that the DR is up for grabs!

 

[Chirimoya]

Nals, the only thing that matches your increasingly offensive verbosity is your staggering ignorance. Like a loudmouthed bore at a party you love to spout on at length about many a subject, and when you try to display knowledge of a subject anyone is familiar with, all you succeed in doing is shooting yourself in the foot with a tedious litany of embroidered half-truths.

Case in point. If you knew anything about the world of humanitarian development, you would know that feeding the hungry and creating dependence is certainly not what modern-day development workers do. Unfortunately it is still the practice of well-meaning amateurs here and there, but it is definitely not the norm anymore. Real humanitarian workers provide emergency aid when people are in a life and death situation, but the ongoing work, the work that does not grab the headlines, is promoting long-term solutions at community, national and international level.

I and many others here would love to see proof of your oft-cited BS statistic that 90% of slum dwellers in the DR are Haitians.

As for the 'final solution' to the Haitian 'problem', I reiterate what others here have said.

In any case, knowing that it is the easily-corruptible Dominican border guards that bear much of the responsibility for letting so many people in illegally, even if some future government decided to implement a shoot on sight policy, don't you think that these models of military excellence would resist the temptation when offered money instead? It would merely raise the stakes, not to mention all the money they could make selling arms and ammunition to the highest bidder.

If the problem needs to be tackled, it is not at that level. There is some work to be done in improving border security, but ultimately the causes are structural. Alleviating poverty on the Haitian side is the only way Haitians are going to be persuaded to stay in their country instead of taking their chances crossing the border illegally.

 

[deelt]

Reading Lesley D's and your message is like a breath of fresh air!

"increasingly offensive verbosity" -- loved it!
"No se puede porfiar con tercos" - soo on point!
"poverty alleviation"- sounds too much like right
The definition of humanitarian work - too real for words...and with such life and death repercussions. Too many lost souls to count, dying in this cause to trivialize. I pray my friends on the field of battle as an aide or a soldier come home safe and sound.

I am too entrenched on a daily to be spending my weekends fighting a dead end battle on this board with no potential for resolution. God knows that positive change will not come about from posting here.

See you guys on the real field.

In Solidarity,
D

Case in point. If you knew anything about the world of humanitarian development, you would know that feeding the hungry and creating dependence is certainly not what modern-day development workers do. Unfortunately it is still the practice of well-meaning amateurs here and there, but it is definitely not the norm anymore. Real humanitarian workers provide emergency aid when people are in a life and death situation, but the ongoing work, the work that does not grab the headlines, is promoting long-term solutions at community, national and international level.

I and many others here would love to see proof of your oft-cited BS statistic that 90% of slum dwellers in the DR are Haitians.

As for the 'final solution' to the Haitian 'problem', I reiterate what others here have said.

In any case, knowing that it is the easily-corruptible Dominican border guards that bear much of the responsibility for letting so many people in illegally, even if some future government decided to implement a shoot on sight policy, don't you think that these models of military excellence would resist the temptation when offered money instead? It would merely raise the stakes, not to mention all the money they could make selling arms and ammunition to the highest bidder.

If the problem needs to be tackled, it is not at that level. There is some work to be done in improving border security, but ultimately the causes are structural. Alleviating poverty on the Haitian side is the only way Haitians are going to be persuaded to stay in their country instead of taking their chances crossing the border illegally.

 

[Robert]

Alleviating poverty on the Haitian side is the only way Haitians are going to be persuaded to stay in their country instead of taking their chances crossing the border illegally.

Chiri, I know you have more experience in this area than 99% of the people on the planet, let along this board.

So...

How is that going to happen? How will the DR be involved in that process?
We all know that's the obvious solution, but how do you get to that stage?

The DR has plenty of it's own problems and I think the continuing burden of it's neighbors is just going to bring even more problems to the DR.
Problems that the DR is really not in a position to provide help with, let alone solve.

I'm not in favor of shooting people, but it would not surprise me in the least if the DR decided to close it's borders and take a strong arm stance.

 

[guarocuya]

que viva la patria y raza quisqueyana

I could have taken the time to dissect Guarocuya's post. But it is too much nonsense in such little space. Bah!

The only reason why sometimes I stop by these threads is to leave my disgust at these ideas on record, lest anyone stumble upon this thread searching for something and come to believe that we Dominicans are a bunch of genocidal lunatics.

I don't have at the moment the energy to start repeating whatever arguments I've posted ten zillion times here. Bah!

:smoke: mr. pib , I just wonder why you respond to me since my first thread which it is good. now i will respond to your question.

I could have taken the time to dissect Guarocuya's post. But it is too much nonsense in such little space. Bah!

. because you represent haitian business rather than spanish business. it hurts you a lot every time you see someone patriot as me. see your posted and thought. fortunately, our country is governed by quisqueyano business rather than hatians generation in DR. que viva la patria.

Originally Posted by Lesley DChris,Not only that but I thought Nals would be at the border by now shooting. Lots of talk no action.-Lesley D


by Nals , That's funny, I thought you were in Haiti telling Haitians that the DR is up for grabs!

Smart respond, but also it is very obvious. Poor Juan Pablo Duarte who fights and enslave us from Haitians massacre. But where were deelt, locofoto, Lesley, Chris, and pib. What would happen to our excelencia and father if he has counted with these people to stop Haitians genocide killing our race and culture. Where were human right during that time in 1820 and even now 2004.

It is human right for criminal, rapper, and killer. It is human right for the unright thing rather than civilized people. I wonder who are the victim and the criminal? Whom did ?violate his right to live as peaceful man? to whom. It is the victim the criminal so there is not human right to be killed. It is right that these people keep killing since they are the victims.

This is for the people that protect and blind Haitians rights since they will genocide us.
:angry: Why the USA billion country and other countries don?t take care of them.

:bandit: Why they don?t give resident millions of them to live there forever. There will Not culture, race, economic, political and race survival impact as quisqueya since we are very small ants in the ocean compare to millions people in USA and others. think one time in your entire life, do you know that in Haiti, there is the same amount of people as quisqueya. Plus if we subtract the Haitian origin and generations and cocolo in DR (original quisqueyano) we might be less than 5 million of people in the census. So who will replace to whom.
:bandit:Why the USA didn?t do anything or send troops ? golpe de estado? in Haiti until they saw all thousands of Haitians invading Florida in yolas due to the political situation in Haiti. Why, why, why, and why. Tell me why. The USA is the father of human rights; they proclaim it better than deelt, locofoto, Lesley, Chris, and pib. So Where were the human rights in Florida for Haitians? And why does USA send them back to Haiti and everybody applauses it (it is the law ? invasion?), except the Haitians. About the cocolo that the USA didn?t want them there, so the DR has to take care of them.
:bandit:why USA and Bill Clinton (politics) demand and try to unit the island as one without caring about the race and culture impacts. What was behind this politic against DR sovereignty and culture? Why do they claim human rights for all Haitians to give birth certificate to all Haitians and leaving them ? the owner of DR?.
:bandit:Why the African origin doesn?t take care of their own business instead blaming others and do whatever they want. Then when it is time to see the law, the excuse this is discrimination.

:devious: :devious: So, where is the human right for DR?

Lets bring jibaro from Spanish countries or like Nals said ? get agriculture machine? and pay better salary to quisqueyano jivaro?

 

[NALs]

Many of these so called "Humanitarians" here on DR1 are short of being traitors to the DR.

I say short, because they do a good job at sustaining some poor people in the DR and bringing some hope to them, but they really mess it up with their pro-Haitian everything!

If this idea keeps going, we will disappear forever. The interesting thing is that it won't be people like me or Guarocuya who will suffer (we will probably be either killed or expelled from our own country by the invaders from the west), but Pib, Deelt, and others of their types will be rethinking what they pictured.

Plans never materialize 100% as planned, that is ever more true when dealing with a bunch of illiterate people from Haiti. Their reaction is unpredictable, especially if they manage to bring the DR down to Haitian economic standards. I wonder what type of desperative action the Haitians will take then?

If they invade PR, the US will probably force PR to become independent.

If they invade Cuba, the Cuban government would resort to unceremonially deporting them or just killing them. It has happened, though the world is so focused in the DR treatment of Haitians that they miss all the other abuses these people experience elsewhere.

If they invade Jamaica, oh that's right, Jamaicans will do the same Cuba would do.

Bahamians are up to their eyeballs in frustration with this Haitian diaspora, Barabados, Trinidad, Martinique, Guadaloupe, France, Canada, USA,

EVERYBODY DISLIKE THE HAITIAN PRESENCE, BLACK COUNTRIES AND WHITE ONES AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.

I rest by saying that THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HAITIAN PROBLEMS AND AS SUCH, WE WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR FIXING IT FOR THEM!

Also, for those of you who want to know why all this Haitian deal is going on, read this report. Its on Adobe Acrobat so, print it or save it to your computer.

It deals with migration of Haiti, Dominican Republic, and beyond.

http://www.minorityrights.org/admin/Download/pdf/MRGCaribbeanReport.pdf

 

[Pib]

Blah, blah, blah. Fluff. Something about treason. Jabberwocky. Various nonsensical phrases put together. Mispelled drivel. More fluff... something about Mr.(?) Pib been a Spaniard, or some such. Gobledigook, etc.

Some poppycock. Male bovine excrement.

Whatever.



Ditto for Nal0whs.

 

[guarocuya]

Many of these so called "Humanitarians" here on DR1 are short of being traitors to the DR.

I say short, because they do a good job at sustaining some poor people in the DR and bringing some hope to them, but they really mess it up with their pro-Haitian everything!

If this idea keeps going, we will disappear forever. The interesting thing is that it won't be people like me or Guarocuya who will suffer (we will probably be either killed or expelled from our own country by the invaders from the west), but Pib, Deelt, and others of their types will be rethinking what they pictured.

Plans never materialize 100% as planned, that is ever more true when dealing with a bunch of illiterate people from Haiti. Their reaction is unpredictable, especially if they manage to bring the DR down to Haitian economic standards. I wonder what type of desperative action the Haitians will take then?

If they invade PR, the US will probably force PR to become independent.

If they invade Cuba, the Cuban government would resort to unceremonially deporting them or just killing them. It has happened, though the world is so focused in the DR treatment of Haitians that they miss all the other abuses these people experience elsewhere.

If they invade Jamaica, oh that's right, Jamaicans will do the same Cuba would do.

Bahamians are up to their eyeballs in frustration with this Haitian diaspora, Barabados, Trinidad, Martinique, Guadaloupe, France, Canada, USA,

EVERYBODY DISLIKE THE HAITIAN PRESENCE, BLACK COUNTRIES AND WHITE ONES AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.

I rest by saying that THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HAITIAN PROBLEMS AND AS SUCH, WE WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR FIXING IT FOR THEM!

Also, for those of you who want to know why all this Haitian deal is going on, read this report. Its on Adobe Acrobat so, print it or save it to your computer.

It deals with migration of Haiti, Dominican Republic, and beyond.

http://www.minorityrights.org/admin/Download/pdf/MRGCaribbeanReport.pdf

thank you Nals, it is very good article most of them, where the reality, the haitians will destroy the beatiful quisqueya as they detroyed what the spanish give to the french. the haitians migration are destroying our culture and race.
this is more horrible than I thought, I didnt know they where many bateyes. this is a disaster. how our government let these foreigner " owner of sugar industry " to bring all that haitians legally and ilegally to destroy our country and race. because this country is not their own coutries and they dont care about our culture we have to look for a solution to deport all haitians and get machine and spanish culture in before it is too late. they will sublebar and take control of all island like they did to french. it is like you bring them to the place and then they demand that is their own place.

plus now the haitians are entering the fronteir like the owner and occupy and destroy our land, trees and genocide us.

now, i understand the interest of USA and the human right. they want that we take care of all haiti and destroy our culture and heritage.
even the african countries like jamaica, bahama, and others island dont want them. even their own mother haiti, dont want them. smart thing from USA to get free from haiti issue " stop florida invation" and give it to us by human right. and unit the all island. very clever.
why our goverment doesnt do anything and deport all of them. are they are blind to this situation.


i means "good article most of them"

-he author, did not mention the horrible thing that they did to us. very convinance form his part.
-he said a culture of african descendad but who he refer to , the haitians origin or the cocolo. or the haitians inveder. I wish to meet black from DR bring by the spain people now. they became mulato by decade ago.

about the people with native descendad and meztizo. and the jivaro from our towns.
are this people mulato like he said? who the author try to convince because I now my people the original quisqueyano. check these picture people that my friend gorge estevez( native from DR) took and he send to me

http://by10fd.bay10.hotmail.msn.com...m___cacheh=1&hm___fl=attrd&domain=hotmail.com
http://by10fd.bay10.hotmail.msn.com...m___cacheh=1&hm___fl=attrd&domain=hotmail.com

 

[guarocuya]

the patriot

Whatever.



Ditto for Nal0whs.

now , it is time to go to my DR and become next presedent 10 years from now. if it is not too late and the hatians take over. somebody has to do something. like juan pablo duarte

 

[NALs]

thank you Nals, it is very good article most of them, where the reality, the haitians will destroy the beatiful quisqueya as they detroyed what the spanish give to the french. the haitians migration are destroying our culture and race.
this is more horrible than I thought, I didnt know they where many bateyes. this is a disaster. how our government let these foreigner " owner of sugar industry " to bring all that haitians legally and ilegally to destroy our country and race. because this country is not their own coutries and they dont care about our culture we have to look for a solution to deport all haitians and get machine and spanish culture in before it is too late. they will sublebar and take control of all island like they did to french. it is like you bring them to the place and then they demand that is their own place.

plus now the haitians are entering the fronteir like the owner and occupy and destroy our land, trees and genocide us.

now, i understand the interest of USA and the human right. they want that we take care of all haiti and destroy our culture and heritage.
even the african countries like jamaica, bahama, and others island dont want them. even their own mother haiti, dont want them. smart thing from USA to get free from haiti issue " stop florida invation" and give it to us by human right. and unit the all island. very clever.
why our goverment doesnt do anything and deport all of them. are they are blind to this situation.


i means "good article most of them"

-he author, did not mention the horrible thing that they did to us. very convinance form his part.
-he said a culture of african descendad but who he refer to , the haitians origin or the cocolo. or the haitians inveder. I wish to meet black from DR bring by the spain people now. they became mulato by decade ago.

about the people with native descendad and meztizo. and the jivaro from our towns.
are this people mulato like he said? who the author try to convince because I now my people the original quisqueyano. check these picture people that my friend gorge estevez( native from DR) took and he send to me

http://by10fd.bay10.hotmail.msn.com...m___cacheh=1&hm___fl=attrd&domain=hotmail.com
http://by10fd.bay10.hotmail.msn.com...m___cacheh=1&hm___fl=attrd&domain=hotmail.com

Guarocuya, overall the article was good.

The author has this rigid mentality of DR being black or something, but that is out of ignorance more than anything else.

I presented the article to show people a more professional manner of presenting the ever increasing Haitian problem and of bringing light that the DR is not the only place with this problem.

I have heard many Haitians say that they hate Dominicans because we basically protect what is ours. Well, they should also hate Bahamians, Cubans, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Guadalupeans, and Martiniquians. In fact, they should hate themselves if they want to hate the people that are causing them the most harm.

BTW, Guarocuya, thank you for those link. Just a quick question. Where is it? I don't see nothing.