Metro defenders - answer these questions please

Rick Snyder

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Chirimoya,
As Puerto Rico is so close and the people are so much similar to the people here in the DR I thought the story that was written by Ariana Green concerning Carlos Medina's thoughts on their metro would convey what the people here in the DR might think about a metro here once its completed. As the link won't work I will say that you can find the story if you do a search with (Carlos Medina rides the subway) and you will find (A Hesitant Puerto Rico Tries Commuting by Train - New York Times ). This is where the story is.

Rick
 

qgrande

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Rick Snyder said:
Amtrak was created by an act of Congress in October 1970. It started as a federally chartered corporation authorized to operate virtually all intercity passenger routes in the United States. At the time, promising to be a profit-making enterprise, it was given $40 million in initial funding, along with $100 million in loan guarantees. As of 2002, that?s the last figures I can find, Amtrak has received nearly $25 billion in taxpayer dollars, with no prospect in sight of ever breaking even.

According to my research only 2 metros in the world make money and they are the Tokyo Metro and the Hong Kong Metro. Everything that I have found says that ALL others are losing money every year.

Regardless of what the report that Nal?s submitted says, I think that the DR would be better served by a Light Rail Transit System above ground. It can be built at half the price, or better, and if established correctly it can be used in conjunction with the present motors, gua guas and taxis.

My 2 cents worth.

Rick

Why would a metro have to make money or brake even? Traffic lights don't brake even, police forces don't make money, public hospitals don't brake even, the army is pretty heavily subsidised. Public transport is a government service with a public goal for the good of society that would not be provided by private actors, like armies, hospitals, police forces and traffic lights. Whether or not they make money or brake even is no goal as such and misses the point. However, how much it will cost and whether a society can afford it considering other priorities is important. I've not seen a comparison study of different solutions, so I'm not sure what would be the best solution, but on the face of it a ligt rail system does indeed look appear to be more sensible (a light rail system would be heavily subsidised as well).
 

NALs

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Chirimoya said:
Well, only a few answers to what should be easy questions, and most of these are incomplete and unconvincing.

These discussions are motivated by a desire to see a solution to the city's traffic problems that is feasible, sustainable, well-thought out, cost effective, and beneficial to the citizenry and the environment (as opposed to government officials and their Swiss bank accounts).

I could go as far as to say that those who choose to brush aside these questions and accuse we who are asking them of having a negative agenda, are the ones who really don't have the DR's best interests at heart.

Excuse us for smelling a rat or two, but if you were thinking of starting a yaniqueque stall there is a certain amount of groundwork and obvious questions to be asked, which is more than the government has done in the case of the metro.
Chiri,

You (and the rest of the DR1ers) are not supposed to be convinced of anything. This project is underway right now and whomever likes it or not means absolutely nothing to whether this project will be created or not.

It's obvious that the people whose opinions about this truly matter, concerning whether this project is made or not, agree with the project and hence, the project is under construction.

The real convincing comes once the project is complete, only then will people see whether the project was a good investment or a flop. For the time being, continue to criss cross the city via the tunnels and elevados which were heavily criticized by many of the people benefiting from these very same projects.

It would be interesting if journalist were to decide on taking photos of former critics of the elevados and tunnels while they are using those very same projects to effectively get from one part of the city to another. You would think critics would live up to their word, given all the dust they unsettled during the construction period....

And the Autopista Duarte see's plenty of traffic from former critics of that project as well. I guess reaching the Cibao in 1.5 hours IS a lot better than the 3.5 hours it used to take on the old Carretera Duarte. The list goes on and on and the budget for education, health care, etc has never reached $0!

Things of life... ;)

-NALs
 
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Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Give me strength! Nals, are you saying there is no space for public debate, anfd that we just unquestioningly and passively accept what the authorities impose on us?

If we follow your logic, business or government would never do any preliminary research or feasibility studies.

Oh, sounds like a good idea, let's throw money at it, and see if it works.

Oh, it works!

Great! (Joking aside I will be pleased if it's a success, because I'm a supporter of public transport, but I still want assurance that it is well-thought out, beneficial and SAFE to use).

On the other hand, if it doesn't work - at least a few officials have topped up their Swiss bank accounts.
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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Metro, With All Delibarate Speeed.....

NALs’ phrase du jour: “generalization are never good”
ME :)glasses: ): Are you kidding me, NALs!!

Chiri, this should somewhat answer your questions,

It's a good article...it looks like OPRET is very well consulted*

(*please help me, consulted is not the word with a ring there,neither would be accessorized,…gee I wonder why my mind is so screwed up…. what’s that word I’m missin’?)

Let me well say that the road being constructed on the western periphery of the Ozama may well end up been more efficient than the STDs itself.

I’d give OPRET this one..They Gots SPEEEED! :)glasses: <<--ME, wishing I had some speeeed too!)

Kuddos to Clave…
 
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NALs

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Chirimoya said:
Give me strength! Nals, are you saying there is no space for public debate, anfd that we just unquestioningly and passively accept what the authorities impose on us?

If we follow your logic, business or government would never do any preliminary research or feasibility studies.

Oh, sounds like a good idea, let's throw money at it, and see if it works.

Oh, it works!

Great! (Joking aside I will be pleased if it's a success, because I'm a supporter of public transport, but I still want assurance that it is well-thought out, beneficial and SAFE to use).

On the other hand, if it doesn't work - at least a few officials have topped up their Swiss bank accounts.
No, all I am saying is that debates such as these can go on into oblivion and not make a dent in the plans of those in charge of such project.

Nothing more, nothing less.

This does not mean debates such as these don't have "space", but rather such project will be imposed on that city whether DR1 debates about this or not. The proof? Well, just take a look at the construction sites.

Regarding corruption, I don't think anyone here is denying its existence. On the contrary, we all know it exist and it's going to continue regardless. Let's now focus on all the other things such project entails, not just corruption because as I have stated, it's also a part of this deal as it is a part of every deal that is made not just in the DR, but around the world.

In the DR it's called mordida or "regalito", in the US "special interests", etc etc.

-NALs
 

gardito

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Regarding safety ...

Remember, engineering teams that design these or any other projects do not do it half-a**ed. It's up to the building sub contractors to supervise a construction and here is where you get into trouble. If you start using below-standard materials and not following DESIGN guidelines (ie. putting 3/8 rebar instead of 1/2 in), the project is going to fail. It's up to the inspectors (govt and bank) to their job and make sure these guidelines are followed. Here in PR we some problems with some support towers that were not up to spec. Inspectors had them replaced at sub-contractor's expense. Again, follow up is key in these situations.

I know, you're saying "with corruption, what can we expect?" , but believe me there are some eople out there who know their stuff.

E.
 

Mirador

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Chiri, ?No estar?is pidiendo peras al olmo? You will never obtain a straight answer to your questions. Your attempts will only hit a wall of arrogance and sophistry, as can be seen from the previous posts. No real feasibility or other economic studies were ever made, no real traffic density surveys, no environmental impact studies, not even geological ground analysis... The SD metro project was not designed to solve the city traffic problem, it was devised as part of the Novo Mundo XXI artificial island project (which by the way, is still on the burner), as a fancy adjunct, and its route was laid out for the purpose of providing transportation for the rich inhabitants of the artificial island, up Maximo Gomez Ave to the National Theater, and east to the Maunaloa Casino. It was no afterthought to extend the route to Villa Mella. The extension of the route to Villa Mella justified committing public funds, and of course, to provide an extraordinary opportunity for graft. Off the top of my hat, I can identify at least 10 nine + kilometer linear points in the metropolitan area that have a higher density traffic than the proposed Villa Mella ? Maximo Gomez ? La Feria route...

-
 

NALs

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Mirador said:
Chiri, ?No estar?is pidiendo peras al olmo? You will never obtain a straight answer to your questions. Your attempts will only hit a wall of arrogance and sophistry, as can be seen from the previous posts. No real feasibility or other economic studies were ever made, no real traffic density surveys, no environmental impact studies, not even geological ground analysis... The SD metro project was not designed to solve the city traffic problem, it was devised as part of the Novo Mundo XXI artificial island project (which by the way, is still on the burner), as a fancy adjunct, and its route was laid out for the purpose of providing transportation for the rich inhabitants of the artificial island, up Maximo Gomez Ave to the National Theater, and east to the Maunaloa Casino. It was no afterthought to extend the route to Villa Mella. The extension of the route to Villa Mella justified committing public funds, and of course, to provide an extraordinary opportunity for graft. Off the top of my hat, I can identify at least 10 nine + kilometer linear points in the metropolitan area that have a higher density traffic than the proposed Villa Mella ? Maximo Gomez ? La Feria route...

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Mirador,

This line is only the first line to be constructed.

Look, instead of writing a long post explaining this, just take a look at the map of the metro line currently under construction with the link below. It's PDF.

Notice, the current line is north to south, but two more lines are planned to be constructed. Of the future lines to be constructed, one will parallel Avenida Kennedy and the other la 27, both on an east-west direction.

http://www.reed.edu/~reyn/metro_santo_domingo.pdf

-NALs
 

Rick Snyder

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qgrande, transport systems, like any company, need to raise money to pay their staff and generally towards their upkeep. Whether the social and economic benefits to the nation as a whole justify governments allocating taxpayers' money to contribute towards this current expenditure is debatable - especially if the transport is not operated efficiently and therefore incurs costs that it could avoid, like Amtrak, however there is no doubt that investment in capital expenditure (ie: new infrastructure, extensions to existing lines, major renewals, street transport electrification...) should be based on the concept that as the whole community benefits, the whole community should pay. Indeed, even motorists who never use the system will benefit, if only because by other motorists switching away from their cars then the roads will be emptier for them.

There are just two problems with mass transit. Nobody uses it, and it costs like hell. As of 2005 only 4% of Americans took public transportation to work. Even in cities they don't do it. Less than 25% of commuters in the New York metropolitan area used public transportation. My research has shown that elsewhere it's even less - 9.5% in San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, 1.8% in Dallas-Fort Worth. Total travel in urban parts of America, all the comings and goings for work, school, shopping, etc. show that only 1.7 % of those trips are made on mass transit.

According to the Heritage Foundation in 2002, "There isn't a single light rail transit system in America in which fares paid by the passengers cover the cost of their own rides."

With the recorded, proven track record of the costs associated with world mass transit over the years it only seems natural that a country with the financial problems of the DR would have put more thought and studies into feasibility before implementing any action.

Public transportation is run by corporations owned by governments and or private companies. Their purpose is to provide a service but also with the purpose of generating enough monies as to make a profit or at least pay for themselves. As it has been proven that this profit has only been realized in Tokyo and Hong Kong and that federal subsidies are required for mass transit to exist in all other parts of the world is another indication that the DR does not have the welfare of their average person in mind. In a population already overtaxed anymore additional taxes placed on the people does not help their situation. If, as happened in PR, it takes them 9 years to construct their madness then that means that no income will begin to be generated until 2015.

As to other entities and items making money I will only say that stop light cameras and traffic tickets do their share in offsetting the operating costs associated with protecting the public.

Nals I feel I must address your general inclination that nothing can be done to change things. It is my belief that the repugnancies of the people is what changes things in the world and makes life more bearable. The Dominicans zeitgeist in the time I have been here have proven to me that the average Dominicans do not understand the true power they hold to bring about changes that are so urgently needed. It is through debates such as this that a panoptic opinion can be presented and we may proselytize some of those reading these debates in the hopes that they will voice the necessary questions to the authorities. As long as the public is silent there will NEVER be change.

Rick
 

NALs

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Rick Snyder said:
There are just two problems with mass transit. Nobody uses it, and it costs like hell. As of 2005 only 4% of Americans took public transportation to work. Even in cities they don't do it. Less than 25% of commuters in the New York metropolitan area used public transportation. My research has shown that elsewhere it's even less - 9.5% in San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, 1.8% in Dallas-Fort Worth. Total travel in urban parts of America, all the comings and goings for work, school, shopping, etc. show that only 1.7 % of those trips are made on mass transit.

According to the Heritage Foundation in 2002, "There isn't a single light rail transit system in America in which fares paid by the passengers cover the cost of their own rides."
Rick,

Comparing modern day USA to modern DR is unfair. For one, the United States in general has some of the lowest usage of public transport in the entire world. This is due to the auto-centric style infrastructure that carpets the nation from coast to coast and even into it's tiny island possessions such as Hawaii and Puerto Rico.

Although, such developmental patterns are appearing all over the world, particulalry in the newer section of many cities worldwide, Santo Domingo included, the usage of public transport is much higher elsewhere. This is particularly true of the Dominican Republic as a whole, a nation dependent on it's irratic conchos, motoconchos, and guagua system that is often chaotic and unregulated to say the least.

If we are going to compare the US to the DR or an American city to Santo Domingo, we are going to have to compare each other at a point in time when the economic and infrastructural developments are the same in each. Thus, modern day USA cannot be compared to modern day DR in terms of this project because modern day USA is years ahead of modern day DR. However, mass transit systems such as a metro were developed in old American cities like New York and Chicago during periods of time when their economic and infrastructural systems were more on par to modern Santo Domingo.

Rick Snyder said:
Nals I feel I must address your general inclination that nothing can be done to change things. It is my belief that the repugnancies of the people is what changes things in the world and makes life more bearable. The Dominicans zeitgeist in the time I have been here have proven to me that the average Dominicans do not understand the true power they hold to bring about changes that are so urgently needed. It is through debates such as this that a panoptic opinion can be presented and we may proselytize some of those reading these debates in the hopes that they will voice the necessary questions to the authorities. As long as the public is silent there will NEVER be change.
I understand this and I see the purpose of such debates.

However, have you ever seen how the national police takes care of unexpected demonstrations? Have you ever seen how often questions are raised about projects that continue unabated with no answers supplied by those who are in charge of such projects?

How often have Dominicans demanded an end to the power outages? Corruption? Inequality? Plenty of times and the results.... :ermm:

SOME things do get revised SOME times, but most of the times deafness seems to be a pervasive problem. Albeit, this "problem" is treatable with a few extra pesos and cured if it's done in dollars. :surprised

This is a FACT of Dominican life.

Now that we "understand" the way things are done on the eastern two-third of Hispaniola, can someone please tell me what weight does debating such project has? The holes have already been made, might as well finish the thing!

-NALs
 
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macocael

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NALs you wrote in response to Rick that "Comparing modern day USA to modern DR is unfair. For one, the United States in general has some of the lowest usage of public transport in the entire world. This is due to the auto-centric style infrastructure that carpets the nation from coast to coast". While I see your point I dont think Rick's analogy in this case is out of line, precisely for the reason you give here. The system here, largely North American in character and design, is "auto-centric." Moreover, I would bet that regardless of the different levels of development between the two countries, the resulting ridership patterns will pan out the same. Yes many people here depend on the guaguas and publicos, but many of those routes will continue to operate long after the metro is built, and so far I have not seen any clear statement about the intention the authorities have toward the routes that coincide with the metro -- whether they will be superannuated or just allowed to wither and die if -- and this is not known yet -- the metro absorbs that ridership. Plus, I havent seen any specific data on estimated rider numbers -- how many people can the metro reasonably transport?

Second point, while debate here on this board may be somewhat feckless in terms of doing anything about the metro -- it is a done deal, after all -- I agree with Rick that grassroots citizens groups can engage with govt and make changes and alter policy. Your argument:

"However, have you ever seen how the national police takes care of unexpected demonstrations? Have you ever seen how often questions are raised about projects that continue unabated with no answers supplied by those who are in charge of such projects?

How often have Dominicans demanded an end to the power outages? Corruption? Inequality? Plenty of times and the results....

SOME things do get revised SOME times, but most of the times deafness seems to be a pervasive problem. Albeit, this "problem" is treatable with a few extra pesos and cured if it's done in dollars."

Your argument is not quite the same as what Rick and other people here on the island are talking about and doing when they challenge authority. If Gandhi listened to the nay sayers, whose arguments were no different from yours here, India would not be independent today, or perhaps it is safer to say that the process would have been much bloodier and perhaps more drawn out.

There is a lack of grassroots organizing here, though it exists of course, and the "unexpected demonstrations" you cite are more the thing, and that is why of course it never works. It is an unruly outbreak, it is inconsistent, it is contained usually to the marginal barrios, and there is never any attempt to channel that energy, come up with long term goals and strategies, follow up and keep the pressure on. Because it is not organized. But that will change, and already is changing.

The "facts" you speak of are not unalterable.
 

Texas Bill

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Se?or_Jimenez said:
It is typical of posters on this board to say BS on a public forum, then get confronted by it PRIVATELY, and then let the world know of your machismo.

I will no longer post on this BS website as you can't get any relavent information about DR anyway.

Have fun as it is obvious that this crap is your life.


Senor_Jimenez;

Vanity is a shallow dish while Pride is a deep ocean.

Your comments obviously reflect Vanity instead of Pride.

So much for your "machismo"

Texas Bill
 

qgrande

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Rick Snyder said:
qgrande, transport systems, like any company, need to raise money to pay their staff and generally towards their upkeep. Whether the social and economic benefits to the nation as a whole justify governments allocating taxpayers' money to contribute towards this current expenditure is debatable
I completely agree, this is debatable because we have democracies, where the allocation of taxpayers' money is debated and adapted to the wishes of the citizens. Like we can debate whether we should have an army or a police force or public hospitals, or public television, and to which degree taxpayers' money should not only subsidise their infrastucture, but also their current expediture. If in this way you decide to have public television, you don't judge its succes by looking at whether it makes money or brakes even. The same applies for public transport. As you point out, there are reasons for the good of the whole community to have public transport, like emptier roads, or cleaner air, which is only accomplished if people actually use it. This may need contunuous subsidies. You mention that nobody uses public transport, but this is a very US-centred view. In Europe and Japan public transport is used much more. This is undoubtedly related to the cost of using publci transport and going by car, with gas being relatively much cheaper than in other first world countries. There are other factros, like the availability of land and cultural factors as well, but the cost of a train ticket versus a trip by car certainly matters. This applies for a Santo Domingo metro - or light rail - as well, subsidising tickets with taxpayers' money will be needed into all eternity te get people to actually use it, and if that is not possible it it is not worth having at all.
So, public transport systems are too frequently judged by whether or not they earn money or brake even. Apart from the idea that there is something to be said for providing cheap transportation for less wealthy citizens that cannot afford a car to travel to work or their education, there are economic benefits for all in having emptier streets and even cleaner air. There are the costs of unhealthy popluations, and cities like Mexico City and Lima are notorious for their smog and their image as unhealthy cities will make tourists and others avoid those places. This does not mean that the metro is the best option, just that it should not be discredited because it will never make money.
[/QUOTE]
 

qgrande

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Rick Snyder said:
qgrande, transport systems, like any company, need to raise money to pay their staff and generally towards their upkeep. Whether the social and economic benefits to the nation as a whole justify governments allocating taxpayers' money to contribute towards this current expenditure is debatable
I completely agree, this is debatable because we have democracies, where the allocation of taxpayers' money is debated and adapted to the wishes of the citizens. Like we can debate whether we should have an army or a police force or public hospitals, or public television, and to which degree taxpayers' money should not only subsidise their infrastucture, but also their current expediture. If in this way you decide to have public television, you don't judge its succes by looking at whether it makes money or brakes even. The same applies for public transport. As you point out, there are reasons for the good of the whole community to have public transport, like emptier roads, or cleaner air, which is only accomplished if people actually use it. This may need contunuous subsidies. You mention that nobody uses public transport, but this is a very US-centred view. In Europe and Japan public transport is used much more. This is undoubtedly related to the cost of using publci transport and going by car, with gas being relatively much cheaper than in other first world countries. There are other factors, like the availability of land and cultural factors as well, but the cost of a train ticket versus a trip by car certainly matters. This applies for a Santo Domingo metro - or light rail - as well, subsidising tickets with taxpayers' money will be needed into all eternity te get people to actually use it, and if that is not possible it it is not worth having at all.

Public transport systems are too frequently judged by whether or not they earn money or brake even. Apart from the idea that there is something to be said for providing cheap transportation for less wealthy citizens that cannot afford a car to travel to work or their education, there are economic benefits for all in having emptier streets and even cleaner air. There are the costs of unhealthy popluations, and cities like Mexico City and Lima are notorious for their smog and their image as unhealthy cities will make tourists and others avoid those places. This does not mean that the metro is the best option, just that it should not be discredited because it will never make money.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Macocael said:
NALs you wrote in response to Rick that "Comparing modern day USA to modern DR is unfair. For one, the United States in general has some of the lowest usage of public transport in the entire world. This is due to the auto-centric style infrastructure that carpets the nation from coast to coast". While I see your point I dont think Rick's analogy in this case is out of line, precisely for the reason you give here. The system here, largely North American in character and design, is "auto-centric." Moreover, I would bet that regardless of the different levels of development between the two countries, the resulting ridership patterns will pan out the same. Yes many people here depend on the guaguas and publicos, but many of those routes will continue to operate long after the metro is built, and so far I have not seen any clear statement about the intention the authorities have toward the routes that coincide with the metro -- whether they will be superannuated or just allowed to wither and die if -- and this is not known yet -- the metro absorbs that ridership.
I think the plan is to allow the metro take away business from the chaotic public transport system that currently exist. If the metro remains cheaper monetarily, it will be able to do this along the route the first line covers. The subsequent lines will also be able to do this along their respective routes once those additional lines have been built. The metro is expected to make a trip from near the banks of the Isabela river all the way to Centro de los Heroes in less than 15 minutes, with intervals per train per station being of around 3 minutes. I don't think anyone has been able to cover such trayectory via land, not even if those streets were free of traffic of all kinds.

This is highly advantageous in regard to saving time and if the fares remain competitive it will be tranferred to savings to each rider on a minute per kilometer basis vs. the same amount covered today in a guagua or concho or even on a private vehicle.

Macocael said:
Plus, I havent seen any specific data on estimated rider numbers -- how many people can the metro reasonably transport?
There was an article that I had (I'll see if I can find it) that said the metro will be able to move upwards of 100,000 people during peak hours. The details of this I don't have recollection at the moment, but if I find the article I will post it here.

Macocael said:
Your argument is not quite the same as what Rick and other people here on the island are talking about and doing when they challenge authority. If Gandhi listened to the nay sayers, whose arguments were no different from yours here, India would not be independent today, or perhaps it is safer to say that the process would have been much bloodier and perhaps more drawn out.
I was responding more on the basis of debating via a DR1 forum of a particular subject and/or project that is already in under construction. This debate should had been done months ago and one was done, but nothing truly came out of it other than more questions, a few answers, and more data and info being presented about such project.

Grassroot organizations are a very effective way of influencing all sorts of things, from government policies to business practices and even cultural ones, but such thing is best done before a project is under construction.

-NALs
 

Don Juan

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Infrastructure, beneficial no matter its shape, type or usage.

Double posting. Sorry
 
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Don Juan

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Infrastructure: Beneficial no matter its shape, type or usage.

Lets regard this "metro" as just another weird government project that, if it lives up to its potential, it can be a great benefit, or at least be a newfangled way for some people to get around town.
As gas gets progressively more expensive and publicos get older/hazardous, the option of rail -albeit- expensive, would seem the way to go IF there are no disruptions in service, IE, power failures.
I don't see why your average commuter would not fork over the extra pesos for the comfort, security and safety of getting there as compare to the alternative(s).
I, for one, are 95% convince that maybe Leonel has got something here.... A bit controversial, but a probable winner. It would all depend on who's going to run the show. Let's hope for the best.
 

Musicqueen

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Jan 31, 2002
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From the first public statement about this project, the government officials have reiterated that the metro will include its own independent electrical production.

This is from NALs...

Chiri...You answered exactly what I was thinking...Who's to say that this 'independent electrical production plant' is gonna work if the other ones don't???

Are the people that are so pro this project making money off of it, maybe???

It sounds like it...by their answers...

Anyway...here's Tony's and mine prediction:

THE FIRST TIME SOMETHING GOES WRONG WITH IT, BE IT POWER FAILURE OR ANYTHING LIKE IT...THE METRO WILL STOP RUNNING AND EVERYTHING WILL JUST STAY ABANDONED TO ROT...

MQ
 
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