Morality Question

Mcinbrass

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Jan 2, 2002
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Not an offense?

You sound as if prostitution is some noble profession where the only perpetrator is the unsuspecting man. You mean to tell me that the girl with herpes who knowingly gives bare- back blow jobs is doing nothing wrong? If I were to go around wrecklessly infecting women I would be locked up and charged heavily.
 

Pib

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Ahem...

Just so we are clear on our premises: what exactly do you mean by "offense"? Is it offense as in "prostitution is a criminal offense" or offense as in "I find prostitution offensive"? If it is the latter, I can't do nothing about that. You are entitled to your morals and religious beliefs. If it is the first, there is nothing to argue about. Prostitution is not a criminal offense in DR.

I don't believe prostitution is a ?noble profession?. Please do not twist my words, get better arguments. If I am to believe the words of these same prostitutes "they [some] are pushed into prostitution by lack of work opportunities". By their own words one has to conclude that prostitution would not be their first choice. I think you are making too many excuses for a grown adult who chose to have unprotected sex with a prostitute in the first place and is given his comeuppance. All I say is that two consenting adults make decisions then have to live with the consequences.

Excuse me while I slink away from this thread.

:rolleyes:
 
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Jim Hinsch

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Envy comes from those unable to compete. Eliminate the ability for a man to purchase sex, and the wife holds much more power - the ability to withhold one of the only remaining options for him to get sex. Ditto for other sources of envy. Eliminate the competition, thus maintain power.

I don't see many beautiful young women trumpeting the elimination of prostitution. Prostitutes are not competition for them. If you are the only store in town that sells cookies conveniently, you don't want all the locals starting to offer cookies in a convenient manner, especially cookies that taste better.

Naturally, a beautiful young woman like PIB would not take offense to prostitution. But when a woman no longer has the appeal she once had, and she were to be in a situation where a big part of what she brings to her relationship is the availability of sex, she might not want all those young pretty girls lowering the value of what she has to offer. Hypothetical situation of course.

Sex IS often used as a weapon in countries like the USA. Be nice, or no sex until ... Men in the DR would laugh, as sex has been reduced to a commodity that can be had easily and cheaply. Pesonally, I see it as a gateway for men. Once getting their rocks off is an easily purchased commodity, they will put much more value on sex that involves a deep feeling and closeness. Men from sex-supressed countries like the USA are still at the early stages. It is difficult to learn to savor the taste of a fine coffee when they are lucky to even get a good cup of coffee. First let them get their rocks off (excuse the term), then they can grow to learn about love and feelings. That's the gist of it.

It is the same with those that claim posing nude in Playboy or participating in a beauty contest is degrading. You don't see many young beautiful women carrying that cause forward, now do you?

Who is complaining about the over abundance of hotel rooms in the DR? Those that have hotels, of course.

Offense is as in "criminal offense" but could mean moral offense also.
 

Pib

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Jim, I think that your assessment of the reasons why people oppose prostitution is incorrect. It is also incorrect that women are its most vocal opponent; on the contrary. You have to check your sources again. I don?t know where you got that from; it sounds very much like stuff you made up while being constipated.

My reasons for defending the right of women over their body (which incidentally includes prostitution) has nothing to do with not being envious or not feeling threatened by younger women. It is only part of my whole system of beliefs, which includes the conviction that governments can only go so far in protecting people from their own decisions. We have to give people more credit for knowing what?s good for themselves (to a point).
 

x_man

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I say:

THANK THE LORD FOR PROSTITUTES!

Where would be the fun without them?
I don't care if hypocrites don't approve
or if its legal or not. They are there.
Is that ok with you guys?
X.
 

Jim Hinsch

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Pib said:
Jim, I think that your assessment of the reasons why people oppose prostitution is incorrect. It is also incorrect that women are its most vocal opponent; on the contrary.

You are right. Those are my opinions, not fact. Until I can do the research, please tell us what are the correct origins of prostitution laws and who are the most vocal supporters of such laws. I did do a few searches and it pointed to various womens' organizations, however.

My opinions come from my own experience. I rarely hear anybody talk FOR prostitutioin laws unless they are female or over 40 years old. And when I do hear somebody being vocal against prostitution, it seems to be older women, especially womens' organizations that declare it to be abuse and exploitation.

So tell us the real facts. Who supports anti-prostitution laws for ADULTS around the world, and why.
 

Pib

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[B]Jim Hinsch[/B] said:
You are right. Those are my opinions, not fact. Until I can do the research, please tell us what are the correct origins of prostitution laws and who are the most vocal supporters of such laws. I did do a few searches and it pointed to various womens' organizations, however.
You are entitled to your opinions, however wrong they may be. Not that mine can't be equally wrong. Being prostitution a very old phenomenon (not for nothing it's called the world's oldest profession) I don't think that anti-prostitution laws date from the last 60 years. And if I recall correctly that's when women in the western world (in average) got freedom of vote. Moreover, women have had little influence in legislation throughout history.

Of course the feminists movement opposed prostitution as a form of women "objectification" (I think I just made up another word). Fair is to say they opposed and supported a great many deal of other things and didn't get much done. And please, do watch a little more of those entertaining, albeit annoying, tele-evangelists. Most of them are men. And by the way, they also oppose the Internet. :ermm:

Try this Straightdope article on why prostitution is illegal. It is very interesting.
 

Larry

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Mar 22, 2002
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Re: I say:

x_man said:
THANK THE LORD FOR PROSTITUTES!

Where would be the fun without them?
I don't care if hypocrites don't approve
or if its legal or not. They are there.
Is that ok with you guys?
X.
Its OK with me X-Man.
ILoveDR
 

Criss Colon

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Sorry to be on the opposite side from you on this one "PIB"

.....but Jim is right about this one.Even your reference sited ,"break up of the family", as one of the reasons women were against prostitution.Who is against "Nude dancing/strip clubs "Hooters" restaurants,and Wet "T-Shirt" contest,men?I can live without watching women dance naked,but I do like prostitutes!You site "Tele-Evangelists" as men who are against "Prostitution",poor choice! Jimmy Swaggert,and Jim Baker(2 of the Biggest at one time) both "fell from grace" because of a "taste" for the "Play-For-Pay" girls.Prostitution,often called;"The World's Oldest Profession", can hardly be called a "Phenomenon"!We also need to be honest here.The average dominican prostitute is not the same as the average American prostitute.She is younger,better looking,gives "Full Service"charges much less,is often a "part timer",the term,"semi-pro" comes to my mind.There are lots more girls calling me a few days before they get paid from their "real" job,than in the week after pay day!Almost l prostitution in the US is drug related,that is not the case here.If I meet a "Promotora" for Cafe Santo Domingo at a Super Mercado National,we go out,spend some time at my apartment,and she asks me to help her pay her cel phone bill,is she a prostitute,or a dominicana asking a friend for some help,as is very common here?Technically maybe she is a prostitute.However,we all know that when the average dominican man leaves for work in the morning,he gives his "mujer" some pesos and says,"Pa la casa mami"!If he doesn't he will have a tough time getting "some" from "mami" that night! .......................Jim Hinch is the most "Street Wise"person on DR1,and he has the intellect to put his knowledge and experience into understandable text for all of us to see!Take a "lesson" from Jim!CRISCO
 

Pib

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Criss you always crack me up. But I have a suggestion: could you please, please break your text into paragraphs? It will make it a whole lot easier for me to read it. Have mercy on my old eyes. :glasses:

We started with prostitution in DR and we later took it global. Well, we said it: prostitution in DR is legal. I don?t see any ?women?s movement? trying to ban it. I don?t even hear the church and other assorted a**holes talking about this, busy as they are licking the behinds of the local politicians. So, the DR is another case.

I admit that I have no "hands-down" experience in the subject. Heck! I haven?t even met a "confessed" prostitute in my life. So I guess you guys have an advantage there. But... a sum of anecdotal experiences doesn't make up for facts and statistics. I don?t even know where Jim heard the 40+ year old woman(en) opposing prostitution. But if he heard it from one or ten it doesn?t even really matter, that?s not enough evidence. Moreover, this same source I quoted mentions the fight of some other feminists trying to de-regularize prostitution, in the belief that it is interference of the government in the right over women?s bodies. There are women on BOTH sides of the fence; that?s normal.

You mention Jim Baker and J. Swaggart, well it so happens that they publicly preached differently. If they hadn?t been caught we would have never known, huh? But even if the most vocal and effective opponents of prostitution were women (and I think not), how comes they get to pass laws against it yet fail to pass other laws that benefit women. C?mon Criss it?s not like we have had so much power.
 

Criss Colon

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"PIB" I would gladly use pragraphs,don't know how

My point about "Tele-Evangelist" is that you can't use them as being men against prostitution,because the don't, "Practice what they Preach"!In fact they are not good to use as examples of anything,except of hipocracy,and greed! Will this be a "new" pragraph?(I guess not)It's "Hands On",not "Hands Down"! That is unless since we were discussing sex,maybe you didn't want to say "Hands On"!!!! I,and I think that Jim as well"speak from years of experience on the "Dark Side" of the street.We'"Been der,dun dat",and in some areas continue to "do dat"!That said,It is usually two groups of North American women who protest the loudest against prostitution,married women (the older the woman,the louder the outcry),and "Feminists" of all ages,mostly single,ALL HETEROSEXUAL!!!none of them are "GAY" or ever have been, or will be!! gay!(OK BUGSEY "69")I bet we get some responses now!I did not say that most "Feminists" are gay,so let it go!(Little known fact;Many prostitutes,and nude dancers are gay!) I would say that I have made the "acquaintance" of 1 to 2 thousand prostitutes in the last 40 years.I have "dated" them,dined them,gone on vacations,with them,lived with them,counseled them,liked them,and "loved" them.And most of all,gotten to know them.My apartment on Beacon Hill in Boston was a gathering place for lots of girls after 2 am.,when the bars closed.The only difference between a "Prostitute" and a suburban housewife is the number of clients she has per day!!!!CRISCO
 
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Bugsey34

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Feb 15, 2002
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Criss Colon said:
I did not say that most "Feminists" are gay,so let it go!

No, what you did say was this...

Criss Colon said:
That said,It is usually two groups of North American women who protest the loudest against prostitution,married women (the older the woman,the louder the outcry),and "Feminists" of all ages,mostly single,mostly gay!

Which is equally wrong. Don't speak about what North American women want unless you are a North American woman, or at the very least married to one. Let's get a show of female DR1 hands who are pro-prostitution. How many would want their daughters to be prostitutes or even support a friend or distant family member doing so? It's completely wrong in my experience that feminists who oppose prostitution are mostly gay. It doesn't even have anything to do with their sexual preference. Wait a minute... scratch that... I've never met a woman who supports prostitution in my whole life, so I guess I don't have any 'experience' with the other side of the argument.

Criss Colon said:
My apartment on Beacon Hill in Boston was a gathering place for lots of girls after 2 am.,when the bars closed.

Oh please, Beacon Hill apartment, give me a break. Why don't you put the words 'Combat Zone' before the word 'bars' to clarify, Crissssssco.:p
 

Pib

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[B]Bugsey34[/B] said:
I've never met a woman who supports prostitution in my whole life...
When you put it that way...

Let's see. I don't support prostitution. But I support a woman's right to prostitute herself. It goes like this: I don't drink a lot, maybe a glass of beer or wine, I am against drinking and getting yourself drunk and all that. But I recognize that people do have a right to drink, get themselves drunk and wake up on the sidewalk (well, not so literally). I just don't have the intention to impose my beliefs on others. I'd rather give people education, opportunities and choices.

If you go out and ask women "do you support prostitution?" I'd be really surprised if you get many positive answers. Darn, I'd be surprised if you get many positive answers from men. What I really disagree on with Jim (maybe too loudly) is his trying to pin women's disagreement with prostitution on "age" and "envy". But, oh well... I hope I don't change that much in 9 years from now.

And Criss you are right about "hands-down" and "hands-on", but by now you should know I make up my own words when I don't find one I like. :)
 

AnnaC

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I'm tired of this whole thing!
I say" More power to the men" Yes go out and pay for sex while we get it for free from young guys. They're only interested in sex and someone who has experience and isn't going to bug them about marriage, blah blah blah.......LOL :ermm:

And may I add who can get it up and keep it up all night with very little stimulation. THERE! I said it. Now I'll slither away for the rest of the week. My secret is out.
 
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trina

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Envy comes from those unable to compete. Eliminate the ability for a man to purchase sex, and the wife holds much more power - the ability to withhold one of the only remaining options for him to get sex. Ditto for other sources of envy. Eliminate the competition, thus maintain power.

That makes you sound like you have a pretty low opinion of women, Jim. Any self-respecting married woman wouldn't want a man who uses prostitutes, and would kick him out on his a** the second she found out he did, never to take him back. Perhaps married women are against prostitution in the event that if her husband was with a prostitute, she didn't know about it, and they passed a disease onto her. This happens too often, and unless one knows that their husband is cheating, how do you prevent this from happening? No one uses condoms with their husband for protection against STDs.
 
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Jim Hinsch

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Well, my research so far also says I was right. The most vocal groups against prostitution fall into 3 categories: Feminists claiming it is abusive and exploitive, religeous proponents (that should tell you something right there - we are on this earth to suffer, spread the word of God, and await judgement day), and men who say one thing and do another but if they are not found out will win the support of the prior two groups.

I didn't mean women over 40, I meant men and women over 40. Sexual exploits are NOT first on their list of things to do and they are just trying to protect the rest of us (see Hillbilly and fatherly advice in other threads). 40 is an arbitrary number. Fathers don't want their daughters involved in this - they don't want her dating that bad boy she had over the other day either.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the link PIB posted.

Look at two of the comments and form your own opinions:

"Whatever may be said for the rights of prostitutes in the abstract, streetwalkers don't do much for a neighborhood's property values."

"But even among defenders of prostitutes' rights, the fundamental reaction to the business itself remains: ick."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Street walkers are only one very small category of prostitutes.
And why "ick"? Sounds like somebody has some misguided preconceived notions about what a prostitute is. I can see the issue about property values, but why then go after escorts? Internet sites that give a venue for prostitutes?

On another note, I found that most of the big "raids" on Boca Chica that show up in the media are the result of a nun (religeon and older woman) that runs a project called "Caminante". Since few would support her cause against prostitution as a general concept, the "child abuse" and "HIV" spin is always thrown in there.

More to support my unresearched perceptions later. And thank you Chris C.

While PIB may not relate to the envy issue, a lot do. Think back at who also is against beauty contests, pornography, wet t-shirt contests, strippers, the no-contact laws regarding strip bars in many localities in the USA, the anti-thong laws at some beaches in the USA, ...

As for the men who make the laws, who controls the men? Their wives! A man can justify ignoring various demands of their wives on many counts, but hell hath no fury like that which the wife will bring upon a married man that vocally supports prostitution.

Most of the most vocal proponents of prostitution are ALSO womens' groups. Go figure.
 

Pib

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The thing is Jim that even men who either defend prostitution, or the right of women to engage in it, would not like to see their daughters, sisters or wives in that line of work. I mean, it's not like I see a lot of fathers wanting their daughters to grow up to be hookers. It is not an honorable profession, especially from a men's point of view. So, let's make that distintion, defending a person's right over his/her body does not mean one agrees with what they do with it.

How I see it prohibition has never worked quite so well, and it shouldn't. If a woman's reason for defending prohibition/regulation is her wish to keep her husband from having sex with a prostitute, I say she's married to the wrong man. Trust and loyalty are paramount in a marriage. If she doesn't trust the guy, a good kick in his rear will suffice.
 

MommC

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Bravo PIB!!!

I wasn't going to comment here but I must congratulate you on your insight.
I personally don't have a problem with prostitution (but then again I know my husband would never seek one out). I do have a problem with the "chulo's" who sometimes force the women into prostitution.
What a women chooses to do with her body is her business and her business only!! For many prostitutes it is the best way they can support their families (especially in the DR.) and themself.
I wouldn't want to see my sons prostitute themselves anymore than I would wish to see them become criminals involved in crime especially the drug trade but then again I really have no say in how they live their lives. As long as they do nothing to harm me (since I'm not into prostitutes that's highly unlikely) I see no reason why they cannot ply their trade to those who for whatever reason need the service they provide just like a plumber of electrician does.
My only concern is that they practise "safe" sex to protect themselves as well as their customers. This is where more education is needed particularly in the DR.
 

Jim Hinsch

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Most men don't won't their daughters to date motley looking rock group band members, participate in wet t-shirt contests, work as strippers, or pose nude in "big titts" magazine either. Nor do most men want their daughters marrying 80 year olds for the inheritence or doing sexual favors to move up the ladder of success. Or their sons getting the better of the elderly through life-insurance sales or selling stereos out of the back of a van or being door-to-door born-again christians trying to convince people to find God, or promoting communism, or visiting cancer wards to sell cemetary plots, or working as sankies in Sosua. None of those things are predominately honorable. That really has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I'm not for locking people up for selling drugs, but I would not especially want my offspring specializing in the trade either. I don't see what that has to do with whether or not men trumpet making these things illegal. I don't think used car salesman or back-injury lawyer is especially honorable either. Nor do I want these things to be illegal.

The womens' organizations that vocally denounce prostitution want to make it ILLEGAL.

What is with the push in Tampa, FL to keep men a certain distance from the strippers? Or making them were plastic things over their nipples? Or make it illegal to sport a woody in a strip bar? You may not be familiar with the recent happenings down there but it has made nationwide news recently. It is essentially the same mentalilty. I guarantee it has nothing to do with honor. It is pure envy and political posturing.

Men in general are NOT the one's calling for such, except in as much as it garners them support from a certain segment of the population (the segment mentioned earlier, including their wives, girlfriends, and elderly consitutuents). Men almost universally denounce prostitution as part of political correctness while personally having a different opinion but most of the women supporting these anti-whatever issues REALLY DO feel they way they say.

Prohibition (drugs and alcohol) has always been about money and is not related to this issue.

Now my research finds that prostitution laws originated with the fall of Babylon, the spread of disease (back then, sexually transmitted diseases were untreatable and often fatal) and the general public health, as was the denouncing of eating pork and having children with your relatives. But over time, the public spin has taken on a life of its own - exploiting women, abusing children, spreading disease, unwed mothers, the breakdown of the family, etc., much as the spin given for the war on drugs - promotes crime, promotes laziness, destroys minds, makes people crazy, leads to worse things, ...

Today's advocates against prostitution are very different from the originators. So, concentrating on who it is that is vocal against prostitution TODAY, it is just as I originally said. It was an opinion without facts to back it up but now I see I was right. It is the "feminazis" as I like to call them, the religious, and governments that see it as bad publicity, as in Thailand and Costa Rica (once again, money enters the equation!). So we have two reason. Money, envy/competition. None of which are part of the "spin" used in the public basis for the arguments.

I'd like to hear how many people are against drugs and prostitution here on the forum, and their reasons why. I bet most that are against will echo the public spin: Prostitution is exploitive, abusive, hurts are children, and spreads disease. Illegal recreational drugs are addictive, unwravels society through laziness and craziness, causes brain damange, promotes crime, and leads to worse things.

Wow. None of these are the original reasons for the laws. Sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy were mostly unpreventable, and the drug laws came about because it was bad for certain businesses and an easy way to randomly lock up the riff-raff (Jazz musicians, Negroes, and Mexicans at the time).

How many young males want to see prostitution abolished world-wide, given a choice of let it go or stamp it out? How many women outside of their prime and "mature" men want it that way?

Am I right or wrong here. Are we in disagreement?

As far as "trusting" your man? What a joke. People cannot be trusted to do ANYTHING they don't believe in, based solely on a "promise" and their integrity to uphold a promise because "they promised". Are people that naive or what. I think yes.

I forget who said it, but someone here pointed out than just about any man would cheat, given ideal circumstances - fantastic opportunity (awesome babe offers herself) with little or no chance of getting caught (alone and out of the country maybe?).

That's the fact.
 

MommC

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Hmmmm........

While I agree with a lot of what you've said Jim I must take exception to your "what a joke" comment about trusting your man. You're right there aslo however as many women cannot trust their men which is why so many are against prostitution.
I trust mine for the same reason he trusts me. We have an understanding......It is not acceptable to either one of us that the other should have extramarital affairs (for several of the reasons both you and Pib have stated). We have both given the other the "right" to call off the marriage at anytime should they wish to partake of "Forbidden Fruit". I have had many opportunities over the years as has my husband (women strip for him all the time as he is a clothing designer and does fittings with partially made garments on partially nude figures every day) however neither one of us is willing to give up what we have together for the sake of a 5 minute "thrill" that we can get at home anytime we want.
Define love.......it's many things from the first pheremonal attraction, to being friends,companions, soul mates,sharing,caring, sex etc. but mainly it's trust. If there is no trust, there is no relationship.
I also know many women who don't mind their husbands "playing the field" as long as they don't bring any diseases home and "bring home the bacon". I personally would not want to live like that but many do. I believe that there is nothing my husband can get "outside" the home that he can't get at home and he feels the same way. So if we truly respect and care about our "other" half we listen to the others wishes and conduct ourselves appropriately.