bailarin, do you ever regret your decision? You didn't mention that you love your husband which plays a big part when trying to work through the hard times. $$$ can detroy a marriage but only if you let it. I hope you can make things work. best of luck!
- Thread starter trina
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Relocating a Dominican 101
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poochie77 said:
Poochie, It's not about the money or love. It's about his contribution and the amount of effort he is putting into their marriage. It's about him being more concerned about his wife and child and household here in Canada, and less concerned about how he looks to his family by sending money home in the DR until they are financially able to do so. My ex has the same mentality. He would want to send money home when we didn't even have money for groceries and then be upset with me because we didn't have any money. He had no idea how things worked and could not get his head around it. I know what you are going through Bailarin. I really do. Very challenging, indeed!
Sadly at times yes!!!
I feel like I didnt take more time to get to know him maybe in such conditions but then how do you know for sure about the future???
I dont feel that love is always enough but maybe I'm not in the best moods to be writing this now so I might change my mind-hey I'm female I'm allowed to change my mind
Yes $$ can destroy a marriage if you let it but I feel that our family should be his ultimate concern after all he did marry me not his family back home.
I feel like I didnt take more time to get to know him maybe in such conditions but then how do you know for sure about the future???
I dont feel that love is always enough but maybe I'm not in the best moods to be writing this now so I might change my mind-hey I'm female I'm allowed to change my mind
Yes $$ can destroy a marriage if you let it but I feel that our family should be his ultimate concern after all he did marry me not his family back home.poochie77 said:
bailarin said:I dont feel that love is always enough but maybe I'm not in the best moods to be writing this now so I might change my mind-hey I'm female I'm allowed to change my mind
I think we can all relate to you on this one...
...like I said, it's sometimes a roller coaster. Thank God for us it's not as scary as it used to be, but believe me, I've been where you are right now.Maybe I sound like a sucker for sending money every month, but I do understand where he is coming from. His mother has been very sick all her life; his father has passed away; his sister is in school. If we didn't send money, they wouldn't eat. period. Sure, neighbors and family would help them once in a while, but ALL the time? never. No one around has the resources to do so. To me, it's a small price to pay, but then we're okay financially. I think if I had less of a connection to his family, and we had less $$$ to live on, I could definitely resent it. Luckily, hasta ahora, we're in the position that we are able to do so without missing that money. Angel's family also never asks for anything, we just do. That helps. One of his cousins has a bankcard to our account and withdraws (bailarin, you may want to open a bank account and put whatever $$$ you are going to send into it. Give his family a bank card, and save all the WU chgs.) whatever we tell him to withdraw monthly. He phoned us to tell us that Angel's mom's shoes were all wrecked, and she was walking around barefoot. Angel had talked to his mother, and she didn't say a thing. It helps, I guess, that they don't ask for it all the time.
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I was thinking for those that are reading this thread and haven?t gone through the process yet the following might be helpful.
The person immigrating needs to have a clear idea about money. Put it all on paper. An income and expense sheet to show what comes in and what goes out every month. What your debt load is and what you will incur for sponsoring him/her.
Write down what they realistically will be earning depending on his/her experience and education.
Explain the deductions the government of your country will be taking from their paycheck.
Make it very clear how much is expected to go towards the household expenses.
And here?s an idea. Unless the family back home is starving to death the debt load you incurred to sponsor him/her should be paid off first. At least if the relationship doesn?t make it in the first couple of years you?re not left with all the debt. This of course depends on your income and surplus. It's just an idea.
I know this will put a damper on the romance but it?s best they know how things work and not how they might imagine things will work.
I?m sure it must be hard for them to think there isn?t an endless supply of money somewhere when they see you coming to visit every month or every few months and the money you spend while on holidays.
Explain about credit cards and how they have to be paid back and no it?s not free money.
The person immigrating needs to have a clear idea about money. Put it all on paper. An income and expense sheet to show what comes in and what goes out every month. What your debt load is and what you will incur for sponsoring him/her.
Write down what they realistically will be earning depending on his/her experience and education.
Explain the deductions the government of your country will be taking from their paycheck.
Make it very clear how much is expected to go towards the household expenses.
And here?s an idea. Unless the family back home is starving to death the debt load you incurred to sponsor him/her should be paid off first. At least if the relationship doesn?t make it in the first couple of years you?re not left with all the debt. This of course depends on your income and surplus. It's just an idea.
I know this will put a damper on the romance but it?s best they know how things work and not how they might imagine things will work.
I?m sure it must be hard for them to think there isn?t an endless supply of money somewhere when they see you coming to visit every month or every few months and the money you spend while on holidays.
Explain about credit cards and how they have to be paid back and no it?s not free money.
off topic
I hope I'm not getting too off topic but isn't there a level of guilt involved? when moving to Canada has improved their quality of life drastically and their family is back home. They may not be starving but put yourself in their shoes, how would you feel if you were the one leaving your family? I personally don't think I could do. Family is everything to them.
I hope I'm not getting too off topic but isn't there a level of guilt involved? when moving to Canada has improved their quality of life drastically and their family is back home. They may not be starving but put yourself in their shoes, how would you feel if you were the one leaving your family? I personally don't think I could do. Family is everything to them.
poochie77 said:
I don?t think it is guilt involved, but maybe some of the girls who have written about their relationships can tell better.
I think it is a clear culture issue. Family bonds are extremely strong here, and it stays strong no matter if you live in the same house or in another country.
It is about them being in new cultural situations, but still keeping the strong bonds to their families, and in many ways also the way they are used to relate to money.
In the Dominican Republic there no such things as planning, putting money aside, paying off by a schedule for families that don?t have much money.
It does hardly exist in families that have money, as they don?t think this way either ( and don?t need to, things goes well anyway... )
It is a process, I don?t believe it is possible to explain to anyone "the western way", it is about learning in real life and by time understand. I am sure it takes time, and I am sure it can be hard on any relationship. But I think it is the only way.
Same as for us, living here, adapting to a new culture, learning to relate to issues in completely other ways than we are used to.
poochie77 said:
Speaking from my experience, my husband does have a lot of guilt if there is a chance that we can't send money one month. Over the pregnancies and births, money was running tight, and he couldn't stand the thought of his family suffering. He would rather not eat himself than think about his family going without.
I don't think it is self guilt either....
I don't think it is self guilt either.... as much as it is the guilt imposed by those that remain behind in the DR and preconceived notions of what their new life will be like. And maybe a bit of pride in not wanting to admit that the preconceived notion wasn't exactly reality immediately.
I did all of the things that Anna suggested above and more. We had all of those conversations, I went through the finances, we talked about cultural differences and adaptation issues... and on and on.... I told my husband not to promise anyone that he would send money for a least a year... and explained that even though I was established in Canada, that it would take him about a year to get established in a way that would enable him to help his family financially back home. I even told him I wouldn't marry him until he visited Canada IN THE WINTER and decided whether or not he could handle it (which he did). But having it explained and wanting to understand and believe it are two completely different things.
He had a job waiting for him when he landed and has worked ever since. He is also in ESL classes. But the calls started coming the first week he was here... and don't get me wrong, most Dominicans don't ASK for money outright.... they complain about all of the things in their lives that aren't going well and how "dura" life is... and they make the Dominican here feel guilty.
They share the preceived notion that life here is easy and money and cheap food are abundant. They share the preconceived notion that upon landing, every Dominican is immediately able to live a "rich and famous" lifestyle... a life of leisure... regardless of how much effort we put into educating them on the realities of immigrating to a different culture, and neither the Dominican who landed nor the family back home are immediately open to revising that idea. (And yes, that idea is perpetuated by all the trips we made to visit our spouses, all the gifts we brought, all the money our spouses have sent home, and the money they flash around back home when they go to visit ... so why would the family/friends back home think that there was a different reality?)
Unlike Bailarin's husband, mine is educated and has a post-secondary education. He was bilingual when we met, but his German doesn't help him much here. He was in English classes there when we met also... but he had just started. He is intelligent and does understand all of the issues, but he also understands that the people back home have a vision of his new life that is more glamorous than it actually is and simply telling them what the reality is won't change their minds. Maybe it is partly his pride that won't let him admit that he didn't achieve instant success once he landed here. We cope.
While his father was alive, we had an obligation to ensure that he had adequate medical care. As there is no universal health care in the DR, the children take care of their parents... that is the culture.... accepting that is part of accepting a marriage with a Dominican. I support the concept of helping someone get an education so that they can improve their circumstances. However, I do not support sending regular amounts of money to able-bodied people simply because they expect it. I believe that will create people with lowered self esteem who believe they should be able to sit on their a$$es and sponge off of others. I agree with Bailarin, it is less likely for anyone in the DR to starve or be evicted than it is here. I agree with Anna that the immediate focus should be the family here and debt reduction. The family there survived on their own devices before our spouses immigrated and they can do it until the debt is paid off and the Dominican is established here (ill parents and grandparents aside).
Didn't confucious (Chinese philosopher) teach that if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... teach a man to fish and he eats for the rest of his life? I wholeheartedly agree with his philosophy.
poochie77 said:
I don't think it is self guilt either.... as much as it is the guilt imposed by those that remain behind in the DR and preconceived notions of what their new life will be like. And maybe a bit of pride in not wanting to admit that the preconceived notion wasn't exactly reality immediately.
I did all of the things that Anna suggested above and more. We had all of those conversations, I went through the finances, we talked about cultural differences and adaptation issues... and on and on.... I told my husband not to promise anyone that he would send money for a least a year... and explained that even though I was established in Canada, that it would take him about a year to get established in a way that would enable him to help his family financially back home. I even told him I wouldn't marry him until he visited Canada IN THE WINTER and decided whether or not he could handle it (which he did). But having it explained and wanting to understand and believe it are two completely different things.
He had a job waiting for him when he landed and has worked ever since. He is also in ESL classes. But the calls started coming the first week he was here... and don't get me wrong, most Dominicans don't ASK for money outright.... they complain about all of the things in their lives that aren't going well and how "dura" life is... and they make the Dominican here feel guilty.
They share the preceived notion that life here is easy and money and cheap food are abundant. They share the preconceived notion that upon landing, every Dominican is immediately able to live a "rich and famous" lifestyle... a life of leisure... regardless of how much effort we put into educating them on the realities of immigrating to a different culture, and neither the Dominican who landed nor the family back home are immediately open to revising that idea. (And yes, that idea is perpetuated by all the trips we made to visit our spouses, all the gifts we brought, all the money our spouses have sent home, and the money they flash around back home when they go to visit ... so why would the family/friends back home think that there was a different reality?)
Unlike Bailarin's husband, mine is educated and has a post-secondary education. He was bilingual when we met, but his German doesn't help him much here. He was in English classes there when we met also... but he had just started. He is intelligent and does understand all of the issues, but he also understands that the people back home have a vision of his new life that is more glamorous than it actually is and simply telling them what the reality is won't change their minds. Maybe it is partly his pride that won't let him admit that he didn't achieve instant success once he landed here. We cope.
While his father was alive, we had an obligation to ensure that he had adequate medical care. As there is no universal health care in the DR, the children take care of their parents... that is the culture.... accepting that is part of accepting a marriage with a Dominican. I support the concept of helping someone get an education so that they can improve their circumstances. However, I do not support sending regular amounts of money to able-bodied people simply because they expect it. I believe that will create people with lowered self esteem who believe they should be able to sit on their a$$es and sponge off of others. I agree with Bailarin, it is less likely for anyone in the DR to starve or be evicted than it is here. I agree with Anna that the immediate focus should be the family here and debt reduction. The family there survived on their own devices before our spouses immigrated and they can do it until the debt is paid off and the Dominican is established here (ill parents and grandparents aside).
Didn't confucious (Chinese philosopher) teach that if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... teach a man to fish and he eats for the rest of his life? I wholeheartedly agree with his philosophy.
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trina said:
I have met a few successful women here in Toronto that have fell in love with Dominican men and have made a go of their marriages. The common denominator in these relationships was and equivalent level of academic education, similar age and willingness to success in life. These are similar rules to Hillbilly?s comments on dating, but my comments apply to successful mixed marriages living outside DR. Dating and marriage are two very different things, as many of us know.
I have been witness to relationships where there is a big gap in education and goals in life. 100 % of this relationships end up in less than 3 or 4 years. Increible pero cierto.
In many cases is very difficult to make a good life here in Canada, even if it considered a paradise for immigrants. We have a lot of skilfull / proffesional immigrants in Toronto driving taxis. What do you thing those ones without the equivalent of High School education do?. Not much, a life of minimum wage and menial work is always perpetuated.
Careful planning before relocating you Dominican man to USA or Canada.
- If your fianc? is a High School drop out; encourage him to get the equivalent diploma in DR BEFORE leaving to CANADA/USA.
- If he has a post-secondary degree, make sure that all diplomas and marks are translated to English and notarized in DR. Even if he?s in the middle of obtaining his degree, make sure this is done with his marks.
- Talk to your fianc? about how much money he is expected to send home once he arrives in CANADA/USA. A little opinion about this issue; if average salary in DR is about $ 90.00 a month; Why would your fianc? have an expectation that his DR family should receive $ 200.00 or $ 300.00 a month. My suggestion would be for him/both of you to send the equivalent in Canadian/US dollars as to the amount in pesos he was contributing to the support of his family when he was living and WORKING in DR
Love and romance can cloud our objective vision of reality and make us see the future as an attainable ?happy for ever? life.
Great comments and advice. As to this statement, however:
I think only sugar cane workers make that little. My best friend Denny works for a little beach shop, and she makes 4,000 RD/month. We don't send more than what Angel was contributing in the DR, and I think that's excellent advice. We will also pay for his sister's University education; she plans to go into Education. She is very bright, and if we can help, why not? I wouldn't do so if I thought she wasn't going to follow through with it, but I had help from my father with education, and if I can pass the gift along, I will. It will set her up to someday be self-sufficient and self-reliant.
I think only sugar cane workers make that little. My best friend Denny works for a little beach shop, and she makes 4,000 RD/month. We don't send more than what Angel was contributing in the DR, and I think that's excellent advice. We will also pay for his sister's University education; she plans to go into Education. She is very bright, and if we can help, why not? I wouldn't do so if I thought she wasn't going to follow through with it, but I had help from my father with education, and if I can pass the gift along, I will. It will set her up to someday be self-sufficient and self-reliant.
Nelly said:
even if you live with someone for 6 months let's say,, that
doesn't mean you'll get to know the person really well. The person will always be in his/her best behavior. Also, one will never know the past of a person; yeah, i know the past is the past. But it's good to know what kind of person he/she was in the past to know his/her character/beliefs.
I dont completely agree
:tired: From my experience with my husband prior to him coming here to Canada since I had put all the efforts obviously to send what $$ was needed for Immigration papers/process etc my husband was going to sell his moto to purchase his airline ticket....well that was my first experience of how Dominicans take no shame in playing one over....anyhow so he was short a lil and to prove a point I told my husband well then you are going to have to figure it out cuz that was all you had to do. SO he went from family member to family member and not a soul gave him a dime/peso whatever-So I disagree that to Dominicans "Family is everything"
If this was true even if a bro here and a sis there could even have given up a measly 50 pesos that would be 50 pesos less that he would have to come up with!! Also you would think that they would gladly want to pitch in what they could to help him now cuz he's going to CANADA-land of $$$ trees, so he'll want to be gracious to me later!!
Also in being here now in Canada 3yrs this December-family, friends etc rarely call-to see if my husband is alive or not-to find out how our newborn is-you know the drill, but like DianaC when they are struggling or someone is ill-even if it is a minor cold they sure seem to recall our digits.
And just to mention befoe i get attacks that they dont have $$ to pick up a fone and call-true to some point but when its time for the cerveza and brugal 5-10 drinks later they could have had 1-2 drinks less and spent 50 pesos for a 3min call to their family.
:tired: From my experience with my husband prior to him coming here to Canada since I had put all the efforts obviously to send what $$ was needed for Immigration papers/process etc my husband was going to sell his moto to purchase his airline ticket....well that was my first experience of how Dominicans take no shame in playing one over....anyhow so he was short a lil and to prove a point I told my husband well then you are going to have to figure it out cuz that was all you had to do. SO he went from family member to family member and not a soul gave him a dime/peso whatever-So I disagree that to Dominicans "Family is everything"
If this was true even if a bro here and a sis there could even have given up a measly 50 pesos that would be 50 pesos less that he would have to come up with!! Also you would think that they would gladly want to pitch in what they could to help him now cuz he's going to CANADA-land of $$$ trees, so he'll want to be gracious to me later!!
Also in being here now in Canada 3yrs this December-family, friends etc rarely call-to see if my husband is alive or not-to find out how our newborn is-you know the drill, but like DianaC when they are struggling or someone is ill-even if it is a minor cold they sure seem to recall our digits.
And just to mention befoe i get attacks that they dont have $$ to pick up a fone and call-true to some point but when its time for the cerveza and brugal 5-10 drinks later they could have had 1-2 drinks less and spent 50 pesos for a 3min call to their family.
poochie77 said:
bailarin said:
My gut response to this is "are you sure he was even asking?" He might've known that you'd give in, and didn't want to shame himself by going to his relatives. I'm not trying to bash your husband at all, but that is a more likely scenario in my mind. If he was trying, the Dominicans were probably saying that his wife, a "rich gringa" (we're all rich to them), could pay more easily than they could.
If you don't agree that to Dominicans "family is everything", I hate to say it, but I think maybe the family you've married into is not typical. When I took my brother and his wife to the DR in April, my Auntie invited us over for supper. They are a working family, but every peso they have is spent the minute they get their paychecks, due to the cost of living. They invited my family over for supper. First, they brought out the red wine. Dinner was like a smorgasboard. Dessert was habichuelas con dulce. Then, they gave gifts to all the women there. How gracious is that? And they wanted nothing from us, other than for my family to enjoy themselves in their country. From my experience, this is a typical Dominican family.
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Can one EVER be 100% sure?
All I can say is my gut response to that is YES. As he did not get to Cananda on my buck re:flight ticket anyways. Again you are blessed to have who you have as a husband and as family!!
I have never been invited to any family's house for dinner-only to our best man's for Xmas dinner and he is not family-very very good friend!!!
So as you said it may not be typical family as per your view but from my point of view it is.
Just another point to further stress my point that from my perspective Family is NOT everything to them.
When $$ does get sent down they cant even take 30-50 pesos or whatever to say thanks or is your family ok to do that? Many down there know that we are in debt-that my husband's income hasnt been steady-that past employers have bounced cheques on him etc but that doesnt seem to matter.
So all I can say Trina is count your blessings !!!
I know many Dominicans that are here and have been here for many years and they have the same complaint that their own family only seems to know to call when they need money-without flat out asking for it but using health/economy or whatever as a means of getting $ sent down!!!
All I can say is my gut response to that is YES. As he did not get to Cananda on my buck re:flight ticket anyways. Again you are blessed to have who you have as a husband and as family!!
I have never been invited to any family's house for dinner-only to our best man's for Xmas dinner and he is not family-very very good friend!!!
So as you said it may not be typical family as per your view but from my point of view it is.
Just another point to further stress my point that from my perspective Family is NOT everything to them.
When $$ does get sent down they cant even take 30-50 pesos or whatever to say thanks or is your family ok to do that? Many down there know that we are in debt-that my husband's income hasnt been steady-that past employers have bounced cheques on him etc but that doesnt seem to matter.
So all I can say Trina is count your blessings !!!
I know many Dominicans that are here and have been here for many years and they have the same complaint that their own family only seems to know to call when they need money-without flat out asking for it but using health/economy or whatever as a means of getting $ sent down!!!
Re:this smorgasbord of food, well then to that I have to say that this family is well off cuz I know my husband's family doesnt have dinners like that. I guess the barrio where my husband is from only does smthg like this feast at Xmas and its with taking out loans at the supermarket-well Dominican style loan-if you know what I mean! So again all I have to say is you are quite blessed! ENJOY!!!trina said:
I can understand your frustration. I'm not trying to change your point of view at all, you are right, I am blessed with the family I married into. As a sidenote to my auntie's family, they are far from well-off. In a family of six, my uncle can't work due to back problems, my aunt and 2 girls are housekeepers in a hotel, one girl works in a beach shop (and has 2 children of her own), and the other is unemployed. They have all finished or are finishing high school, and one is in University. With what little they have, they have done well. What they have, they share...and because they treat me so well, I always bring them gifts and buy groceries when I come. After all, it's the least I can do because we are always (probably 50% of our meals) at their house. They would never ask for it, and they would never expect it. They don't call, ever, either, but it's because I tell them not to, we'll call them because it's cheaper for us. They often write on e-mail, and that's enough for me.
The only answer I have for your husband's family's attitude is the common misconception that money grows on trees in foreign countries. They think that we make huge money, but our cost of living is much less than in the DR. And who can blame them? They see "rich" tourists flaunting and throwing out money all over. They see men and women in foreign lands sending money to sankies every week. They see Dominicans that come back home to visit, now decked out in beautiful clothes, necklaces, and jewelry - something they could never afford living in the DR. Of course they are going to think we're all rich and can afford it. They don't realize that most of us live paycheck to paycheck and are in debt. They see all the good and fail to see the bad - you know, the grass is always greener on the other side. So when they ask for money, they don't even consider the possibility that it could be a hardship to us. When they don't call, I don't think they're trying to be inconsiderate, but they think that it doesn't cost us nearly as much as it costs them. Again, not making excuses for his family, just another POV.
By the way, Bailarin, did you get my PM?
The only answer I have for your husband's family's attitude is the common misconception that money grows on trees in foreign countries. They think that we make huge money, but our cost of living is much less than in the DR. And who can blame them? They see "rich" tourists flaunting and throwing out money all over. They see men and women in foreign lands sending money to sankies every week. They see Dominicans that come back home to visit, now decked out in beautiful clothes, necklaces, and jewelry - something they could never afford living in the DR. Of course they are going to think we're all rich and can afford it. They don't realize that most of us live paycheck to paycheck and are in debt. They see all the good and fail to see the bad - you know, the grass is always greener on the other side. So when they ask for money, they don't even consider the possibility that it could be a hardship to us. When they don't call, I don't think they're trying to be inconsiderate, but they think that it doesn't cost us nearly as much as it costs them. Again, not making excuses for his family, just another POV.
By the way, Bailarin, did you get my PM?
Sorry I thought you said they were a working family
My husband was pretty much raised by his abuela as mom is in Spain and his brother lives there-works in a bar but rarely if ever helps out abuela-by my understandings. (sorry brother and sobrina live/stay with abuela)
His sobrina lives there-or at least spends much time there (recently has moved in nearby thanks to a man caring for her) and she has a daughter. She works at a pool or smthg along those lines. None have any schooling past highschool if that!!!
His sister and her 3 kids live nearby but they are a lil better off-yet it never seems to be that if all family members pitched in-as it should be part of their responsibilty it would take a great burden off of us!!!
My husband would never think of me staying there as he is quite proud and feels embarrassed for me to stay there. Mind you I havent been back since he's come to Canada-trying to prove to them that we dont have $$$ to throw away. SO abuela hasnt seen our son. When he's gone down and I've spoken to people and they ask why I didnt go I clearly stated for $$$ reasons and when they ask to this day when Im coming I still mention that we have no $$ for all of us to go!!!
My husband was pretty much raised by his abuela as mom is in Spain and his brother lives there-works in a bar but rarely if ever helps out abuela-by my understandings. (sorry brother and sobrina live/stay with abuela)
His sobrina lives there-or at least spends much time there (recently has moved in nearby thanks to a man caring for her) and she has a daughter. She works at a pool or smthg along those lines. None have any schooling past highschool if that!!!
His sister and her 3 kids live nearby but they are a lil better off-yet it never seems to be that if all family members pitched in-as it should be part of their responsibilty it would take a great burden off of us!!!
My husband would never think of me staying there as he is quite proud and feels embarrassed for me to stay there. Mind you I havent been back since he's come to Canada-trying to prove to them that we dont have $$$ to throw away. SO abuela hasnt seen our son. When he's gone down and I've spoken to people and they ask why I didnt go I clearly stated for $$$ reasons and when they ask to this day when Im coming I still mention that we have no $$ for all of us to go!!!
trina said:
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As for their point of view re: $ trees as I've stated earlier I totally agree and have to say if/when I do go back I am filming our trees to show them that they are just leaves. I do want to go back but at the same time I know that I'll want to sit them all done and explain to them our sitn not that it will make a difference but just to have my side heard. In the past I had one of his sisters be very very very rude to me because she called and of course when I answer she would hang up. SO I called back and asked why she did that-She had business to deal with my husband-that business being that my husband had to send $$ down. I said why and she said because he is obligated to. I was so pissed and told her that no he was obligated to his newborn son at the time and that if all the family pitched in thgs would be different-as it should also be part of their obligation too. She just called me "EGOISTA" Like yeah ok thanks-after all I have done for them and all I sacrifice me EGOISTA-WHATEVER!!!
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