Social Conditioning of Dominicans through History?? What Do You Think??

[NALs]

You say tomato(to-may-to) i say tomato(to-ma-to).

I think it's more along the lines of I point to an apple and say "that's an apple," while you point to an orange and say "and that's an apple too, let's ignore the different colors, taste, texture and focus that they are both spheres, which means they are both the same," and then I say "no, it's perfectly clear that this is an apple and that's an orange; while similar, they are still very different things that merit very different understandings and acceptances."

But, I could be wrong... or not. :cheeky:

 

[bob saunders]

Thanks for your input, all opinions and viewpoints are welcome. However, to say that my statements don't hold water based on your Dominican's wife circle of friends seems to me a stretch. Even if your wife was extremely popular and actually did have a VERY large circle of friends, that would still probably represent LESS than 1% of the Country, there are at least a Million Haitians alone. [/U]

I didn't say there was no validity to your statements; what I said was in my experience they didn't. As far as my wife; My wife is extremly popular, and her friends DO cover every strata of Dominican society. She grew up very poor with her mother a cook for a rich white Dominican family, the Mirabels. These people are not pure white but are considered so under Dominican society rules. I have been to several Bateys and they are horrible places, and there are Dominicans also living in them, not just Haitians. I've also been on a submarine.

 

[bob saunders]

Now, am I a race-obsessed Black sista in need of self-help too because I see it ?

No, but if you are focused on finding something, then go out of your way to look for it, you'll probably find it.

 

[AlterEgo]

I didn't have time to read all the posts, especially NAL's. :cheeky: Sorry, too long.

Hi OP. You?re looking at DR with your USA Goggles. Take them off.

Everything in the US is about race & ethnicity. When I left the US for greener and saner pastures, it seemed that most black people would strongly identify with their race. White people that lived in urban setting strongly identified with their ethnicity i.e. Italian, Russian etc. I always found it a shame that most people that I met never strongly identified with being American (excluding non urban areas).

I am not Dominican, but after having lived in DR a while I see that there is no big deal about how white or how dark somebody is, they are all Dominican. It doesn?t mean that they are denying their heritage or that they have been brainwashed or conditioned. It?s just not an important issue to them, as they strongly identify themselves as being Dominican, period.

If somebody is white, he is called Rubio, very dark, he is called Moreno. Nobody is insulted, because these are not insulting terms. I think Americans can learn a lot from Dominicans in this area.

Dominicans see themselves collectively as Dominicans. They see Haitians as Haitians and Gringos as Gringos; All unrelated to skin tone.

Sometimes I think that all of this constant preoccupation that the ?civilized? world has with race is a result of them being brainwashed or conditioned. :ermm:

Hi Toober. While I agree with all your points, I wanted to say that those Americans with ancestors who came to the USA in the 1900s [I think that's an important distinction] DO identify themselves by their ethnicity - when they are in the US. If someone in NY or NJ asks me what I am - I'm obviously American so they mean my ethnicity - I say I'm Italian. But I'm American first, and American ONLY when I'm outside the US. It's one of the reasons that I only carry an American passport, although I'm entitled to an Italian one and/or a Dominican one [I'm told triple citizenship isn't recognized].

I'll bet I'm not unusual. I wonder why we do the ethnic thing only at home?

In DR I'm simply 'la gringa Americana' :cheeky: I'd be called the same thing no matter my color or genetics. I agree with you, it's refreshing and America could use some more of that.

AE

 

[Major448]

As a comparison, when it comes to opportunity and equality (or lack thereof), I am surprised that no one has used the example of a country that had similar issues .... but with race never being the main factor.

In all fairness, there is a country that was "colonized" by African Americans, and ruled by their descendants until more "recent changes" in government. (Yes, WE have also been guilty of being the oppressor!)

The issues there were caused more by the imposition of the "colonial" model learned in the US, rather than by race. In this particular instance, everyone was of the SAME race.

Some things are racially motivated, and some things are not. Some things are just about "power". Time will tell. (However, it's really not too hard to "objectively" determine what's what.)

Check out/Google the history of Liberia ...

__________________________________________

"... if you are focused on finding something, then go out of your way to look for it, you'll probably find it. "

Please, don't go there ...........

 

[Lando calrisian]

Africaida mi amor, I appreciate your concern. I'm just very passionate because I don't like this trying (of many) to place Dominican color/race issues in a nice neat box, with a pretty bow on top. Don't try to define our 500 year struggle. Don't attempt to even try to equate the Dominican multicultural experience with the African American experience. The first multi-racial family I ever met was MINE!!! My aunt who is white and her children, my father who is looks like Don Cheadle, my mother who looks like Jessica Alba. WE don't say and have never said look at my primo el prieto, or my brother el blanquito, or el javaito. This multi-racialness is a fact and has always existed in DR and no issue is made about it. When living in the USA seeing a multiracial family was something that had to be discussed on Oprah!!!! It had to be discussed on National TV because it was a BIG DEAL!! Whereas in the DR it had been taking place for CENTURIES!!!!!!!

So it BOTHERS me when I hear American's whether they be of African or Caucasian stock try to IMPOSE their imperialistic civil rights struggle, definitions, articles and viewpoints on the DR. We don't harp on it like many in North America do, we don't shy away from it, we discuss color openly in DR and SO WHAT if we are allured by the native american mystique. It's a fact that has been corroborated that there is a native american phenotype (I love that word) in our Dominican blood. It's there, the choza's, bohios, yucayeque's and areito's may all be gone but the genetic code still hold's true and that doesn't lie. The academics that have studied this, put forth the evidence, some just need to go gather that info for themselves. It's not my job to do that.
In the USA term's like Cr@cker, we're hurled at me by AA's, (me being called a Cr@cker, by black person?) "Oye", Julio, Sp!c by whites and these are terms that I think are clearly racist. So was I then being conditioned by American culture? I don't know, I don't care. I just know that article's or thread's BUG the heck out of me becuase of my own experience. I think that concerning Dominican culture yes, in particular, yes we could always polish ourselves more, be less bruto in some cases. WE can all do more to follow the golden rule as stated in the Good Book. The classification's and proccess that are used in North America, we can do without here in the DR, thank you very much.
I didn't mean to offend, if I did, perdon
But muchas gracias Ida por tue preocupacion, cuidate

 

[bienamor]

Cracker

Term used to describe someone born in the State of Florida, like a Hoosier is from Indiana, or a Jayhawker from Kansas.

Comes from the Florida Cowboys using a whip, note COWBOYS, not SLAVE DRIVERS.

Not sure when the AA's co-opted the term to mean whites.

 

[Major448]

Term used to describe someone born in the State of Florida, like a Hoosier is from Indiana, or a Jayhawker from Kansas.

Comes from the Florida Cowboys using a whip, note COWBOYS, not SLAVE DRIVERS.

Not sure when the AA's co-opted the term to mean whites.

Although I don't see how this relates to DR history .... I think Wikipedia may have a more "complete" definition.

 

[bob saunders]

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28730583@N02/5087303057/" title="JARABACOA OCTOBER 2010_0192 by rsaunders2008, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5087303057_2798b075db_z.jpg" width="640" height="640" alt="JARABACOA OCTOBER 2010_0192" /></a>

One of those white Dominicans, who has a white Dominican father, and a black (American definition) mother. She has one dark brother, two cafe con leche brothers, and one sister who is blonde. This is quite typical as Lando states.

 

[Africaida]

Thank me later

Africaida mi amor, I appreciate your concern. I'm just very passionate because I don't like this trying (of many) to place Dominican color/race issues in a nice neat box, with a pretty bow on top. Don't try to define our 500 year struggle. Don't attempt to even try to equate the Dominican multicultural experience with the African American experience. The first multi-racial family I ever met was MINE!!! My aunt who is white and her children, my father who is looks like Don Cheadle, my mother who looks like Jessica Alba. WE don't say and have never said look at my primo el prieto, or my brother el blanquito, or el javaito. This multi-racialness is a fact and has always existed in DR and no issue is made about it. When living in the USA seeing a multiracial family was something that had to be discussed on Oprah!!!! It had to be discussed on National TV because it was a BIG DEAL!! Whereas in the DR it had been taking place for CENTURIES!!!!!!!

So it BOTHERS me when I hear American's whether they be of African or Caucasian stock try to IMPOSE their imperialistic civil rights struggle, definitions, articles and viewpoints on the DR. We don't harp on it like many in North America do, we don't shy away from it, we discuss color openly in DR and SO WHAT if we are allured by the native american mystique. It's a fact that has been corroborated that there is a native american phenotype (I love that word) in our Dominican blood. It's there, the choza's, bohios, yucayeque's and areito's may all be gone but the genetic code still hold's true and that doesn't lie. The academics that have studied this, put forth the evidence, some just need to go gather that info for themselves. It's not my job to do that.
In the USA term's like Cr@cker, we're hurled at me by AA's, (me being called a Cr@cker, by black person?) "Oye", Julio, Sp!c by whites and these are terms that I think are clearly racist. So was I then being conditioned by American culture? I don't know, I don't care. I just know that article's or thread's BUG the heck out of me becuase of my own experience. I think that concerning Dominican culture yes, in particular, yes we could always polish ourselves more, be less bruto in some cases. WE can all do more to follow the golden rule as stated in the Good Book. The classification's and proccess that are used in North America, we can do without here in the DR, thank you very much.
I didn't mean to offend, if I did, perdon
But muchas gracias Ida por tue preocupacion, cuidate

No offense taken !

You made good and interesting points and obviously that is a side that most of us can't see.

AIDA :tired:

 

[2dlight]

I didn't say there was no validity to your statements; what I said was in my experience they didn't. As far as my wife; My wife is extremly popular, and her friends DO cover every strata of Dominican society. She grew up very poor with her mother a cook for a rich white Dominican family, the Mirabels. These people are not pure white but are considered so under Dominican society rules. I have been to several Bateys and they are horrible places, and there are Dominicans also living in them, not just Haitians. I've also been on a submarine.

Bob, did you mean Mirabal? If so, what city(town) was that where your mother-in-law performed the duties mentioned? Thanks.

 

[bob saunders]

Bob, did you mean Mirabal? If so, what city(town) was that where your mother-in-law performed the duties mentioned? Thanks.

You are correct. Jarabacoa. The Mirabal sister's father was my mother-in-laws Patron.

 

[Major448]

One of those white Dominicans, who has a white Dominican father, and a black (American definition) mother. She has one dark brother, two cafe con leche brothers, and one sister who is blonde. This is quite typical as Lando states.

Not so different in the US ... except by American Definition these are black women. Of course, you'd have to find the person who came up with that definition if you want to dispute it. (And that would not be related to this post.) And that would also not be me. I, for one, would just say that color should not matter, and that they are (all of them) beautiful women.


Halle Berry


Vanessa Williams


Lena Horne

 

[Exxtol]

Take a trip to the museum of man in the cultural center in Santo Domingo, lot of the third floor taken up with display on how they got here more so than any museum I have seen in the USA.

You just haven't been to the right museum's. For starters try DC....then make up your way to Baltimore. Again, you clearly haven't been to many museums in the US.

Now if the African Americans would quit trying to overlay their philosophy on the Dominicans everything would be cool

Yes because there's such a huge African-American lobby in the US that actually gives a crap about what's going on in the DR........or hell, even knows what or where the "DR" is.

 

[bob saunders]

Not so different in the US ... except by American Definition these are black women. Of course, you'd have to find the person who came up with that definition if you want to dispute it. (And that would not be related to this post.) And that would also not be me. I, for one, would just say that color should not matter, and that they are (all of them) beautiful women.


Halle Berry


Vanessa Williams


Lena Horne

We have been conditioned almost from birth to notice the difference in skin colour, but we all bleed the same colour. All are beautiful women. To be one of the most beautiful Black American wonen is Toni Braxton. I know, off topic.

 

[Exxtol]

But it's not racism, there is a clear distinction between racism and colorism.

Here are the differences I see between American racism and Dominican colorism:

1. DR: determines an omission dependent on the personal characteristics such as instruction, occupation, etc.

USA: determines an unconditional exclusion to the members of the group regardless of personal characteristics.

2. DR: identification is based on appearance depending on the mixture level, lacks a race consciousness.

USA: identification is based on an inherent original notion of non-white inferiority that makes it impossible for the mix sector to be seen as anything other than part of the inferior race; race consciousness is constantly vivid (creating almost a caste-like situation) in which the racial minority seeks racial solidarity.

3. DR: it?s much more intellectual and aesthetic, impersonal and doesn?t involve the ego or the sense of self in the identity construct. Hence, it?s broken along the notion of beauty and ugliness, very superficial. The intensity of the prejudice varies depending on all the factors of the individuals? appearance, attitude, education level, etc. There is a continuum.

USA: it?s much more emotional, irrational, and integral to the identity of the person. It?s broken along the attribution of genetic inferiority. Prejudice is equally applied to anyone that shows the most minimum signs of having a genetic link to the perceived inferior group; its very adept to creating racial hatred (i.e. Rise of groups like KKK or Black Panther). Due to this, its manifestation is much more conscious (i.e. segregation ? whether implied by law or through habit of people is irrelevant ?). There is an us vs. them attitude.

4. DR: personal relationships, friendships and admiration easily and much more commonly cross the color issue. Hence, when people of different colors marry, no major conflicts arise in the way either of the two (or the offspring) is seen by the community.

USA: strong taboos and negative group sanctions severely restricts (or at the very least creates a permanent tension) relationships between individuals of the two groups. Hence, when people of the different races marry, the white person socially is considered black, may be peyoratively referred to as a ?negrolover? or ?wigger?, and is relegated to the social world of the ?inferior? race.

5. DR: the ideology is assimilating and encourages mixing with the result of homogenizing the population (culturally and in appearance), thus eliminating the extremes.

USA: the ideology is segregationist and racist, with an expectation that the minority group remains isolated and highly concentrated, constituting a social world apart from mainstream society in order to maintain ?racial purity.? Any idea of homogenizing is rejected by both, the white and the black group, due to an entrenched belief that each ?race? needs to be preserved.

6. DR: differences between minority groups occur from the cultural sphere more than racial or color. There is a marked preference for minority groups that are less prone to endogamy and ethnocentrism.

USA: differences between minority groups occur from the racial sphere more than cultural. There is a marked preference for minority groups that are prone to endogamy and ethnocentrism.

7. DR: there is greater emphasis on controlling the behavior of individuals that may practice discrimination in order to protect from humiliation or susceptibility the individuals that could be subjected to discrimination. Hence, everyone is careful to not call someone black, but instead moreno, etc. depending on the continuum.

USA: the emphasis is to control the behavior of the discriminated group in order to appease to the sensibilities of the discriminator. There is greater emphasis on expressing the inequality in the relationship between the two rigidly defined groups. Those catalogued as white have their own culture, behavior pattern, food, music, dress styles, etc. that is differently from those who are catalogued as black; and anyone from one group that crosses into the style of the other is seen as trying to deny or betray their ?race.?

8. DR: on the individual subject to being discriminated, being conscious of the prejudice is intermittent. The person hardly thinks of his color in terms of being part of his identity, it?s simply a feature similar to having black or blonde hair. No further implications.

USA: on the group subject to being discriminated, being conscious of the prejudice is constant and obsessive. The person constantly reaffirms his identity along racial lines; his identity is intimately intertwined with his ?race? to such a degree that it?s (a) a permanent need of auto affirmation, (b) constant defensive attitude, and (c) being very sensitive to any reference, explicitly or implicitly, relating to his ?race.? This last part includes a constant monitoring and judging of the attitudes of those who are part of the ?race,? as well as those who are not; and if there is any inconsistency or discrepancy, it will be brought to everyone?s attention.

9. DR: everything functions on an individual level with demonstrations of attitudes and characteristics (physical beauty, elegance, talent, education, etc) that would increase the social approval of the person.

USA: everything functions as a group. Individual progress is seen as a real conquest of new positions in the name of the group. In every instance the individual has contact with a white person or an institution or public situation, they often feel and take the role of being a representative or ambassador of the entire ?racial? group.

10. DR: social mobility is within reach of the individual and he/she can change different characteristics (education, manners, etc) to make be much more favorable; hence, social-class takes precedence.

USA: the two separate groups (white vs. black) remain rigidly separate from each other, as if they were parallel societies not capable of reconciling. They are almost like two different castes, in constant friction and a relative ease that tensions can rise from the most basic and minute misunderstanding.

11. DR: social-class takes greater importance in restricting the individual, since his characteristics (education, speech pattern, consumption patterns, etc) can override any ?penalty? due to his physical appearance.

USA: the discriminated group acts like a national minority with a constant friction and tension of equalizing status but rejecting homogenizing in order to preserve the ?race.?


In conclusion, Dominican society can't be judge by American parameters. To do so will render you a skewed picture that doesn't correspond with the real workings and nature of Dominican society.

Nals today the US has a black president (or I'm sorry mulatto). It's 2010. The US you described sounded like the 1960's. Either you've never been to places such as LA or NYC....or other major cities, or your head is in the sand. People mix all the time. I can't even begin to count the number of biracial children that I see nowadays, especially black/white.

Cultural and social anthropologist you are not. Please stop trying.

 

[bob saunders]

Nals today the US has a black president (or I'm sorry mulatto). It's 2010. The US you described sounded like the 1960's. Either you've never been to places such as LA or NYC....or other major cities, or your head is in the sand. People mix all the time. I can't even begin to count the number of biracial children that I see nowadays, especially black/white.

Cultural and social anthropologist you are not. Please stop trying.

Exactly, and neither is the DR the same place the young black American girl experienced in 1994.

 

[Exxtol]

Exactly, and neither is the DR the same place the young black American girl experienced in 1994.

What young black American girl? I couldn't keep up with these marathon style posts.

 

[bob saunders]

What young black American girl? I couldn't keep up with these marathon style posts.

The one that wrote an article stating that when she was a student volunteering in the DR back in 1994 that nobody would dance with her because she was wearing African style clothing and wearing her hair Au natural.

 

[NALs]

Nals today the US has a black president (or I'm sorry mulatto). It's 2010. The US you described sounded like the 1960's. Either you've never been to places such as LA or NYC....or other major cities, or your head is in the sand. People mix all the time. I can't even begin to count the number of biracial children that I see nowadays, especially black/white.

Cultural and social anthropologist you are not. Please stop trying.

Indeed, Obama's white mother and black father certainly gave him an edge that previous black presidential candidates certainly didn't had. In fact, that Obama is still seen as 'black' despite everyone knowing of his mixed heritage speaks volumes of much of what I previous stated, particularly in #2. But, it is changing, slowly. Out of 300 million people, roughly 4 or 5 million are 'mixed', albeit what mixture represents most of that 'mixed' sector is not clear. In either case, it accounts for at least 2% of the population, give or take. As tempting as it is for many, 2% is not enough to merit ignoring what has been documented in multiple sociological studies.

Case in point:

"The study, to be released Friday by the Pew Research Center, found that intermarriage among Asian, black, Hispanic and white people now accounts for a record 1 in 6 new marriages in the United States. Tellingly, blacks and whites remain the least-common variety of interracial pairing."

"...he 'blending' of America could be overstated, especially given the relatively low rate of black-white intermarriage compared with other groups, and continuing racial perceptions and divisions, according to some sociologists."

?They?ll be black because that?s the way they?re seen. Barack Obama, Tiger Woods, Halle Berry, have all known that. Will that change? Don?t hold your breath.?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/us/04interracial.html?_r=1