Social Conditioning of Dominicans through History?? What Do You Think??

[Africaida]

Both our children have had that 'discussion' a multitude of times. Some people come right out and say 'You can't be Dominican, you're white!'

Yeah, right, they just made that up because they thought being Dominican is cool. People can really be moronic sometimes.

AE

If there is one thing I could eradicate, it would be ignorance....But, what can you do ?

I get the same all the times: Apparently, because I am not midnight black, I don't look African :tired: My 2 yr-old daughter is light skin, I can't even begin to imagine....

 

[NALs]

MY point was that it is not unique to the DR, in most of the ex colonies blackness is frond upon in some form or another and this even in the most blacks of the ex colonies, as illustrated in my example of such behavior in Haiti, weather one will admit it or not black societies in general have some sort of self hatred maybe even subconsciously, because of their past, as one person told me once, the black race has been thought to see beauty true the eyes of the white man, and since to the whites during the slave trade society black was not beautiful hence cannot be beautiful the blacks themselves, it is with time and eventual self awareness and knowledge of where you come from and who you are that slowly we see that this is changing, black culture has come a long way and has influenced all cultures in the Americas which would not be what it is today without it.

It's not 'black culture,' but rather 'mulatto culture.'

Let me explain.

Everybody has a dual reality, biological and cultural; and it may or may not coincide.

To be a true black, one would have to be biologically black (ie. no mixture) and culturally black (ie. no mixture either).

This is not always the case.

Within Dominican society, most of the population is biologically mulatto (at various stages of the mixture) as well as culturally mulatto. That, at least, is a consistency.

Within many African societies (or Haitian to take an American example), most of the population is biologically black (no mixture) but culturally mulatto (includes value systems of both black and white, and maybe something else).

Hence, most so called 'black cultures' are in reality mulatto cultures. This can be seen in everything from the music (genres that include African and European instruments, dances, themes), art (more hybrid styles), architecture, language, fashion, etc.

There are other types of discontinuities between the biological reality and the cultural realities of different peoples worldwide. For example, in Sudan you will find people that biologically are pure black, but culturally they are Arab. Speak Arabic, dress like Arabs, think like Arabs.

Dominicans, as mulattoes, think and live like mulattoes due to the mulatto nature of Dominican culture.

Pure black Africans or Haitians, also think and live like mulattoes due to the mulatto nature of their culture, but they are not biological mulattoes.

The same thing happens among whites. For example, when it comes to Dominicans, it becomes obvious that all Dominicans are culturally mulattoes. Doesn't matter if you're white, black, mulatto, of Asian origin, Arab origin, etc; the food your diet represents the mixture of cultures that have impacted the country, the same happens with the music, the art, pretty much everything.

Don't make the mistake of falling along the lines of negating the existence of the mulatto, which is heavily entrenched in U.S. society in particular. The strong negation of the reality of the mulatto (racial mixing/cultural mixing) has caused many people to label what essentially is mulatto culture as 'black culture,' but in reality they are not 'black culture' since 'blacks' didn't invent the European and/or other influences that later were injected into their culture.

In Africa I would guess that mulatto values and culture is much more heavily entrenched in the city (particularly cities along the coast) where the European presence was greater and the mulattoes are more numerous compared to the interior, small villages and rural sub-Saharan Africa where the 'black culture' remained 'black', it didn't went through a hybrid process.

Dominican society, by contrast, is heavily mulatto nationwide, city and country. Mulatto culture and train of thought, I say, was a natural result of the racial mixing, and coincides with the mixed racial reality of most Dominicans.

In essence, to be Dominican is to be form a part of Dominican culture, which in essence is a mulatto culture; hence to be Dominican, is to be a cultural mulatto.

That same train of thought is currently in used in other countries, particularly in Latin America. For example, in Mexico the official ideology is that all Mexicans are mestizos. Obviously, all Mexicans are not biologically mestizos, but cultural and in outlook all Mexicans certainly are mestizos, even the white, black and indigenous sub-sectors.

Having said all of this, whether the focus is on culture or race truly depends on whether the culture, at least in the Western Hemisphere, is based on the Latin (Spanish, Portuguese or French) or Anglo-Saxon (English) variety, respectively.

As I wrote this response, by thought process went all over the place and probably shows, but I hope everyone understands what I'm trying to say.

 

[BIGBOY21]

Very good point although i wouldn’t call it mullato culture but mixed culture witch crated a whole new culture end even within the mixing of European, African, and Indian or native Americans how ever you want to call them some very distinct cultures immerged from that, I would say you have Latin culture, north American culture and Caribbean culture, and the DR may be a mixture of Latin culture with Caribbean culture, there is one thing one cannot deny that the Caribbean has its own culture and there are many similarities between all the islands.

 

[caribNY]

I've never said skin colour/features are a non factor. What I said is I don't think COLOUR is as big a factor as many people, normally Americans, think. My opinion. As far as leaders name a Dominican leader that was pure white in the last 150 years.

I asked specific questions and used as a bench mark Samy Sosa. Do you have answers to those questions or dont you?

I believe that if you have answers this might shed some light about the DR instead of evading the question and making blanket comparisons with other countries. Because one country may be less "race obsessed" than another doesnt necessarily mean that it has more socio economic equality between peoples with different phenotypes.

 

[caribNY]

Well this is all twisted stuff , but I will say this, it is not a DR problem, I have seen this type of behavior everywhere I have been so far in this part of the world, with black Americans there is a hair issue, the less kinky the hair is the better it is as they refer to straight hair as good hair, in Jamaica the same thing, it seems most of the rich families there are lighter skinned if not white, same is true for Haiti, the white and mulato Haitians think they are superior while the black haitians wish they were mulatos and would jump at the first opportunity to marry a white or mulato to ''Ameliorer la race'' to better the race?? as their saying goes, between black Haitians you will find some less dark then others and even some light skinned ones with strong negroide features which are called ''grimo '' for the men and ''grimel'' for women, and among the lower classes a Haitian would consider himself lucky to end up with a grimo or a grimel, this is all very twisted stuff but I think it all has do with the history of slavery blacks have been put true and a self hatred spawned by colonist slave masters that created this self hatred and complex within them.

So this means that the DR has some similarities to Haiti and Jamaica. No one who knows those latter two countries will claim that race/color/phenotype or irrelevant on how some have more access to socio-economic opportunity relative to others. Indeed this is much spoken about in both societies.

 

[caribNY]

Very good point although i wouldn?t call it mullato culture but mixed culture witch crated a whole new culture end even within the mixing of European, African, and Indian or native Americans how ever you want to call them some very distinct cultures immerged from that, I would say you have Latin culture, north American culture and Caribbean culture, and the DR may be a mixture of Latin culture with Caribbean culture, there is one thing one cannot deny that the Caribbean has its own culture and there are many similarities between all the islands.

What he calls "mulatto culture" is called by others "creole" culture. A situation where peoples of different ethnic/racial backgrounds have impacted each other and been impected by each other, and in some cases miscegenated with each other. Often this exists as part of some cultural continuum where one's cultural behavior depends on the social contexts within which people operate so in the Caribbean the African influences are strongest in music and dance...least so at the instutional level dominated by the former colonial European power(s) and more recently the US Americans.

This represents the interaction of peoples of Indigenous, European, African and Asian ancestries (Middle Eastern, South and East).

Tell you what. Playing dominos on a saturday afternoon after a lunch of stew chicken, peas and rice, plantains, African provisions, cracking jokes and listening and/or dancing to rhythmic base heavy music. Can any Caribbean country or linguistic bloc claim this as unique to them? Only the fact that those in the English speaking Caribbean will douse this with a good dollop of hot sauce...the French speaking less so and the Spanish...not at all.

 

[caribNY]

For example, in Mexico the official ideology is that all Mexicans are mestizos. Obviously, all Mexicans are not biologically mestizos, but cultural and in outlook all Mexicans certainly are mestizos, even the white, black and indigenous sub-sectors.

.[/i]

And yet in Mexico there is a definite socio-economid heirarchy with white at the top, mestizo in the middle (the whiter they are the better) and the Indios at the bottom. This is a fact whether its openly spoken about or not.

So is there more or less discrimination in Mexico than the USA?

 

[Africaida]

It's not 'black culture,' but rather 'mulatto culture.'

Let me explain.

Everybody has a dual reality, biological and cultural; and it may or may not coincide.

To be a true black, one would have to be biologically black (ie. no mixture) and culturally black (ie. no mixture either).

This is not always the case.

Within Dominican society, most of the population is biologically mulatto (at various stages of the mixture) as well as culturally mulatto. That, at least, is a consistency.

Within many African societies (or Haitian to take an American example), most of the population is biologically black (no mixture) but culturally mulatto (includes value systems of both black and white, and maybe something else).

Hence, most so called 'black cultures' are in reality mulatto cultures. This can be seen in everything from the music (genres that include African and European instruments, dances, themes), art (more hybrid styles), architecture, language, fashion, etc.

There are other types of discontinuities between the biological reality and the cultural realities of different peoples worldwide. For example, in Sudan you will find people that biologically are pure black, but culturally they are Arab. Speak Arabic, dress like Arabs, think like Arabs.

Dominicans, as mulattoes, think and live like mulattoes due to the mulatto nature of Dominican culture.

Pure black Africans or Haitians, also think and live like mulattoes due to the mulatto nature of their culture, but they are not biological mulattoes.

The same thing happens among whites. For example, when it comes to Dominicans, it becomes obvious that all Dominicans are culturally mulattoes. Doesn't matter if you're white, black, mulatto, of Asian origin, Arab origin, etc; the food your diet represents the mixture of cultures that have impacted the country, the same happens with the music, the art, pretty much everything.

Don't make the mistake of falling along the lines of negating the existence of the mulatto, which is heavily entrenched in U.S. society in particular. The strong negation of the reality of the mulatto (racial mixing/cultural mixing) has caused many people to label what essentially is mulatto culture as 'black culture,' but in reality they are not 'black culture' since 'blacks' didn't invent the European and/or other influences that later were injected into their culture.

In Africa I would guess that mulatto values and culture is much more heavily entrenched in the city (particularly cities along the coast) where the European presence was greater and the mulattoes are more numerous compared to the interior, small villages and rural sub-Saharan Africa where the 'black culture' remained 'black', it didn't went through a hybrid process.

Dominican society, by contrast, is heavily mulatto nationwide, city and country. Mulatto culture and train of thought, I say, was a natural result of the racial mixing, and coincides with the mixed racial reality of most Dominicans.

In essence, to be Dominican is to be form a part of Dominican culture, which in essence is a mulatto culture; hence to be Dominican, is to be a cultural mulatto.

That same train of thought is currently in used in other countries, particularly in Latin America. For example, in Mexico the official ideology is that all Mexicans are mestizos. Obviously, all Mexicans are not biologically mestizos, but cultural and in outlook all Mexicans certainly are mestizos, even the white, black and indigenous sub-sectors.

Having said all of this, whether the focus is on culture or race truly depends on whether the culture, at least in the Western Hemisphere, is based on the Latin (Spanish, Portuguese or French) or Anglo-Saxon (English) variety, respectively.

As I wrote this response, by thought process went all over the place and probably shows, but I hope everyone understands what I'm trying to say.

I lost you here

One thing though, there is no such a thing as black culture. Is there a white culture ? Nope. I would assume you and Bigboy meant African culture. And again, it is not correct. Although, sub-saharan Africa is often perceived as a monolithic block, it comprises of many cultures. It comes as a surprise to many, but culturally, being from West Africa, my culture have nothing to do with someone from South Africa or Ethiopia (different food, values, languague, history, religion and so on). Why would they? Does a sicilian has anything to do with a Scotish ? Again, nope. So to call, Black culture even for African makes no sense.

Culture has never been based on the way you look or the color of the skin. Hatians might look like us, but they are not African. They left a couple of century ago and have their unique history.

No one in their right mind are trying to claim that Dominicans are African. It is obviously a mix of a mix of Spanish, Taino Indian and African. However, it seemed that the African part is always downplayed or even negated. In the same token, anything coming from that continent is viewed as negative.

Just my 2 cents

 

[bienamor]

I lost you here

One thing though, there is no such a thing as black culture. Is there a white culture ? Nope. I would assume you and Bigboy meant African culture. And again, it is not correct. Although, sub-saharan Africa is often perceived as a monolithic block, it comprises of many cultures. It comes as a surprise to many, but culturally, being from West Africa, my culture have nothing to do with someone from South Africa or Ethiopia (different food, values, languague, history, religion and so on). Why would they? Does a sicilian has anything to do with a Scotish ? Again, nope. So to call, Black culture even for African makes no sense.

Culture has never been based on the way you look or the color of the skin. Hatians might look like us, but they are not African. They left a couple of century ago and have their unique history.

No one in their right mind are trying to claim that Dominicans are African. It is obviously a mix of a mix of Spanish, Taino Indian and African. However, it seemed that the African part is always downplayed or even negated. In the same token, anything coming from that continent is viewed as negative.

Just my 2 cents

Take a trip to the museum of man in the cultural center in Santo Domingo, lot of the third floor taken up with display on how they got here more so than any museum I have seen in the USA.

Not downplayed just not all consuming like in the US.

Now if the African Americans would quit trying to overlay their philosophy on the Dominicans everything would be cool

 

[pkaide1]

I lost you here

One thing though, there is no such a thing as black culture. Is there a white culture ? Nope. I would assume you and Bigboy meant African culture. And again, it is not correct. Although, sub-saharan Africa is often perceived as a monolithic block, it comprises of many cultures. It comes as a surprise to many, but culturally, being from West Africa, my culture have nothing to do with someone from South Africa or Ethiopia (different food, values, languague, history, religion and so on). Why would they? Does a sicilian has anything to do with a Scotish ? Again, nope. So to call, Black culture even for African makes no sense.

Culture has never been based on the way you look or the color of the skin. Hatians might look like us, but they are not African. They left a couple of century ago and have their unique history.

No one in their right mind are trying to claim that Dominicans are African. It is obviously a mix of a mix of Spanish, Taino Indian and African. However, it seemed that the African part is always downplayed or even negated. In the same token, anything coming from that continent is viewed as negative.

Just my 2 cents

You need to do a lot of reading. Just my two cents.

 

[Chip]

I find it odd that we've gotten this far and nobody has mentioned the belligerant historical relationship between the Dominicans and Haitians and how that has caused the outlooks that are evident today.

In fact, I think each country that has an issue of "self hate" of color should be analyzed individually. For example, apparently Haiti has it's own issue with color. How could that be, after all the whites were kicked off the island over two hundred years ago and were discouraged from emigrating to Haiti due to laws to prevent their citizenship? Yes, there is still a lot of animosity towards white people in Haiti but then again lighter skin is preferred if I understand correctly. It could be due then to the association with affluence with lighter skin. So how could this come to be? Could it have been influenced by the fact successful foreigner businessmen came and intermarried with Hatians and their offspring inherited the businesses or are attitudes from 200 years ago still prevailing today? It's probably a combination of both.

I think each country should be analyzed in this way or at the very least the DR because it is relatively unique because it's history of occupation by Haiti and relatively small slave population.

 

[Africaida]

You need to do a lot of reading. Just my two cents.

Don't we all do :ermm: ??

Any suggestions ?

 

[bob saunders]

I asked specific questions and used as a bench mark Samy Sosa. Do you have answers to those questions or dont you?

I believe that if you have answers this might shed some light about the DR instead of evading the question and making blanket comparisons with other countries. Because one country may be less "race obsessed" than another doesnt necessarily mean that it has more socio economic equality between peoples with different phenotypes.

Of course I don't have answers to those questions, and either do you or anyone else. Many people have partial answers and even then it's seen through their telscope, not with total impartiality and objectiveness. I'm not rich enough nor interested enough to spend my time studying this. I'm certainly under no obligation to answer anything for you. Draw your own conclusions because it seems you already have. There are no countries that have socio-economic equality between peoples with different phenotypes. There is always someone that has less than another. The number of factors include race, education, opportunity, history, immigration - legal and illegal, culture...... the DR has all these factors.

 

[NALs]

I asked specific questions and used as a bench mark Samy Sosa. Do you have answers to those questions or dont you?

I believe that if you have answers this might shed some light about the DR instead of evading the question and making blanket comparisons with other countries. Because one country may be less "race obsessed" than another doesnt necessarily mean that it has more socio economic equality between peoples with different phenotypes.

- Highly successful blacks (and there are many) concentrate in and reach their positions via politics, the military or foreign sources (ie. baseball). Very few make it in business, I don't know why although I do know that few blacks ever even try to develop big businesses. Thus, it could be simple arithmetic, a small starting pool will give an even smaller successful results. Having said that, the blacks that have reached success in business today are perhaps the highest number of them in that endeavor than at any other time in Dominican history. But the first three mentioned is where the bulk of successful blacks make their money.

- Highly successful mulattoes tend are found in politics, the military, foreign sources and business (mostly midsized businesses, albeit there are a few big businesses that are owned by mulattoes).

- Highly successful whites (including those of Middle Eastern descent, mostly from Lebanon) tend to derive their wealth from business (most big businesses are white owned), politics (usually tied to their business interests), and foreign sources (usually investments). The military has a few, but in general the military is the domain of blacks and mulattoes, for the most part.

The Dominican upper class is not monolithic at all. It's segmented into cliques depending on the various interests, which are not always the same.

The hacendados (large cattle ranchers/plantation/large land) owners (mostly white and old money, especially in the Cibao), don't always share the same interests with the industrialists (the bulk are capitale?os and in second place santiagueros; the former has a greater mix of whites and mulattoes compared to the latter which in general is whiter. There are other groups in other parts of the country but together they pale in size with SDQ and STI), and these don't share the same interests with the service giants (retail, etc) who themselves are quite a mix bag of people, albeit the largest businesses are owned mostly by whites.

Then you have the political class which sometimes are tied with the business class, but in general live in a world of their own.

Then there is the military class who are, in essence, the most powerful of the bunch, because if the military general's interests are compromised; rest assured that there will be some sort of civil/political instability, and with that everything else is halted.

Then it breaks even further by region (capitale?os vs. cibae?os), by origin (Dominican vs. foreigners), etc.

Some families are in everything (not just in investments, but also have a presence in everything, this is when you see the same last names popping everywhere from business to politics to military, etc).

As a general rule of thumb, old money are almost entirely white families (they are a minority within the upper class) while the newer money is much, much more diversified.

The professions tend to be the domain of mulattoes of different hues, however some profession tend to attract more white/lighter skin people (lawyers, bankers, etc) while others are extremely mixed (civil engineers, etc).

Regarding whether there is a greater presence of whites/light skin in the better neighborhoods vs. the poorer one's really depends on the city, and the differences are more or less marginal.

In Santo Domingo, while you will find all types of people everywhere (even in the poorest neighborhoods there are many white/light skin Dominicans), in the wealthier areas among the mass of mulattoes you will see more whites here and there. However, many poorer neighborhoods do have a large presence of illegal immigrants from Haiti and they are almost completely absent in wealthier neighborhoods unless there is a construction site nearby, hence that could also play a role in intensifying the slight darkening trend in poorer neighborhoods. Despite this, most of the people in the streets, regardless of the neighborhood, are mulattoes of all hues.

In Santiago, the contrast is less noticeable, except in neighborhoods with a heavy Haitian presence, in which there is a slight darkening tendency. Overall, you'll see plenty of whites, mulattoes and blacks pretty much everywhere.

Personally, I think historical circumstance explains this phenomenon, albeit Dominican upper society has a greater percentage of mulattoes and blacks than you would find in any other Latin American country. Today there are also many more mulattoes and blacks in high ranking positions than say 30 or 40 years ago. Some ethnic groups simply have a greater devotion in some sectors more than others (example: the Chinese tend to dominate the caba?as, chinese restaurants and nail salon businesses, the descendants of Spaniards tend to dominate the import/export houses as well as the big supermarket chains, etc).

Being dark by itself is not a handicap to achieving wealth and prestige, instead coming from humble beginnings means you start with much less and only the most driven and stubborn reaches the top. The easiest way (not to say it's easy, but it is the easiest compared to the alternative), at least in business, is to develop be among the first to develop an industry that is still highly undeveloped or non-existent but with plenty of potential. If anyone (not just mulatto or black) tries to enter a business segment that is already developed with big players, unless you are extremely resilient and have deep pockets to out maneuver the big guys, you will be crushed and most people fail in their attempts. It's all about timing and being able to see opportunities where others don't see it.

A quick example is the wine industry at the retail level. A decade ago wine was not that big among Dominicans (mostly the ABC social sectors and the tourism sector consumes wine). There was hardly a wine retail/distribution industry until a handful of Dominican businessmen (of Italian/Arab/Spanish ancestry) decided that its time for the Dominican wine industry to become a reality. About a decade or so ago there have been greater efforts in creating a wine niche market including teaching Dominicans how to appreciate and consume a good wine, having wine tasting parties, etc. Today, wine consumption is at its highest it has ever been in Dominican history and is already quite a profitable business segment. However, the guys that started this trend pretty much dominate it, and trying to enter this market will be very difficult for any newcomer, unless you form an alliance with one of the established players. A decade or so ago, entering the wine industry was much easier, albeit only those with a little imagination and self-confidence decided to take the risk, since there wasn't much of a wine industry then. The players are mostly white/light skin because they started this industry, but had the players been mulatto or black, they would had been successful and they would had dominated this industry without a problem. This is why I say it's more a historical circumstance issue than anything else, since aside from established sectors, there is nothing in place to discourage or stop anyone, white, black, mulatto or otherwise; from trying their luck in developing a new Dominican industry and becoming a big player. Once you become the big player for a segment, you pretty much make the rules of the game.

There is also the illicit component, they are generally looked down upon by everyone. Anyone that is into that and manages to look 'legitimate' and later is known that they were involved in illicit activities, will be dropped from many of these social circles faster than you can say wow.

There are many grey areas in which none of this applies, but this is the overall picture.

 

[elbachatero6504]

yep

Well this is all twisted stuff , but I will say this, it is not a DR problem, I have seen this type of behavior everywhere I have been so far in this part of the world, with black Americans there is a hair issue, the less kinky the hair is the better it is as they refer to straight hair as good hair, in Jamaica the same thing, it seems most of the rich families there are lighter skinned if not white, same is true for Haiti, the white and mulato Haitians think they are superior while the black haitians wish they were mulatos and would jump at the first opportunity to marry a white or mulato to ''Ameliorer la race'' to better the race?? as their saying goes, between black Haitians you will find some less dark then others and even some light skinned ones with strong negroide features which are called ''grimo '' for the men and ''grimel'' for women, and among the lower classes a Haitian would consider himself lucky to end up with a grimo or a grimel, this is all very twisted stuff but I think it all has do with the history of slavery blacks have been put true and a self hatred spawned by colonist slave masters that created this self hatred and complex within them.

I agree with much of that. Everybody will see a thing from a different perspective, and that perspective is sometimes very realistic. But when you do the Math from a honest, non-biased, realistic, and subjective perspective what you get is this - African/Black culture in general is either frowned upon, avoided and/or denied to various degrees. The reasons for this may vary, and I think Social conditioning has had MUCH to do with this (just as it is in the States). Some people get all huffy and puffy at the notion of someone DARE saying that 'Darker skinned people are at a general Social disadvantage in the Dominican Republic', but its generally speaking it is true, period. You don't have to look far to see it. But perhaps since there is such a cultural and social difference, it simply does not stand out as being anything noteworthy. Again, I'm not saying its the fault of any one person, be them Haitian or Dominican, nor am I saying the Dominican Republic as a society is the problem. But what I AM saying is that a certain level of dislike, distrust does exist toward people with darker skin, be them Haitian or just darker skinned Mulatto people. Generally speaking, it certainly seems like Dominican's (and several other cultures for that matter) just DO NOT WANT TO BE CONSIDERED BLACK OR AFRICAN. Logically, History has had much to do with that, especially as it relates to the age old conflicts between Haiti and Dominican Republic. So I'm not saying its anyone fault, as if to imply that Dominican's themselves are partial or racist etc, because that is not the point I am trying to imply or make. My point is that it does exist, it IS evident, and it needs to be addressed for the benefit of both the Dominican Republic and Haiti. There should be more emphasis put on this issue, so that people in general can move forward and progress instead of the Dog chasing its tail and going nowhere. Its the EXACT same type of issue that has kept Black and White people in the States from progressing more than 'we' have. Discrimination, Racism, Hate, Violence......all they do is create destruction, be it directly or indirectly. The Dominican Republic and Haiti both comprise a beautiful place and beautiful people. So it is just disheartening to see such things handicap and impede the progress of those nations.

 

[elbachatero6504]

- Highly successful blacks (and there are many) concentrate in and reach their positions via politics, the military or foreign sources (ie. baseball). Very few make it in business, I don't know why although I do know that few blacks ever even try to develop big businesses. Thus, it could be simple arithmetic, a small starting pool will give an even smaller successful results. Having said that, the blacks that have reached success in business today are perhaps the highest number of them in that endeavor than at any other time in Dominican history. But the first three mentioned is where the bulk of successful blacks make their money.

- Highly successful mulattoes tend are found in politics, the military, foreign sources and business (mostly midsized businesses, albeit there are a few big businesses that are owned by mulattoes).

- Highly successful whites (including those of Middle Eastern descent, mostly from Lebanon) tend to derive their wealth from business (most big businesses are white owned), politics (usually tied to their business interests), and foreign sources (usually investments). The military has a few, but in general the military is the domain of blacks and mulattoes, for the most part.

The Dominican upper class is not monolithic at all. It's segmented into cliques depending on the various interests, which are not always the same.

The hacendados (large cattle ranchers/plantation/large land) owners (mostly white and old money, especially in the Cibao), don't always share the same interests with the industrialists (the bulk are capitale?os and in second place santiagueros; the former has a greater mix of whites and mulattoes compared to the latter which in general is whiter. There are other groups in other parts of the country but together they pale in size with SDQ and STI), and these don't share the same interests with the service giants (retail, etc) who themselves are quite a mix bag of people, albeit the largest businesses are owned mostly by whites.

Then you have the political class which sometimes are tied with the business class, but in general live in a world of their own.

Then there is the military class who are, in essence, the most powerful of the bunch, because if the military general's interests are compromised; rest assured that there will be some sort of civil/political instability, and with that everything else is halted.

Then it breaks even further by region (capitale?os vs. cibae?os), by origin (Dominican vs. foreigners), etc.

Some families are in everything (not just in investments, but also have a presence in everything, this is when you see the same last names popping everywhere from business to politics to military, etc).

As a general rule of thumb, old money are almost entirely white families (they are a minority within the upper class) while the newer money is much, much more diversified.

The professions tend to be the domain of mulattoes of different hues, however some profession tend to attract more white/lighter skin people (lawyers, bankers, etc) while others are extremely mixed (civil engineers, etc).

Regarding whether there is a greater presence of whites/light skin in the better neighborhoods vs. the poorer one's really depends on the city, and the differences are more or less marginal.

In Santo Domingo, while you will find all types of people everywhere (even in the poorest neighborhoods there are many white/light skin Dominicans), in the wealthier areas among the mass of mulattoes you will see more whites here and there. However, many poorer neighborhoods do have a large presence of illegal immigrants from Haiti and they are almost completely absent in wealthier neighborhoods unless there is a construction site nearby, hence that could also play a role in intensifying the slight darkening trend in poorer neighborhoods. Despite this, most of the people in the streets, regardless of the neighborhood, are mulattoes of all hues.

In Santiago, the contrast is less noticeable, except in neighborhoods with a heavy Haitian presence, in which there is a slight darkening tendency. Overall, you'll see plenty of whites, mulattoes and blacks pretty much everywhere.

Personally, I think historical circumstance explains this phenomenon, albeit Dominican upper society has a greater percentage of mulattoes and blacks than you would find in any other Latin American country. Today there are also many more mulattoes and blacks in high ranking positions than say 30 or 40 years ago. Some ethnic groups simply have a greater devotion in some sectors more than others (example: the Chinese tend to dominate the caba?as, chinese restaurants and nail salon businesses, the descendants of Spaniards tend to dominate the import/export houses as well as the big supermarket chains, etc).

Being dark by itself is not a handicap to achieving wealth and prestige, instead coming from humble beginnings means you start with much less and only the most driven and stubborn reaches the top. The easiest way (not to say it's easy, but it is the easiest compared to the alternative), at least in business, is to develop be among the first to develop an industry that is still highly undeveloped or non-existent but with plenty of potential. If anyone (not just mulatto or black) tries to enter a business segment that is already developed with big players, unless you are extremely resilient and have deep pockets to out maneuver the big guys, you will be crushed and most people fail in their attempts. It's all about timing and being able to see opportunities where others don't see it.

A quick example is the wine industry at the retail level. A decade ago wine was not that big among Dominicans (mostly the ABC social sectors and the tourism sector consumes wine). There was hardly a wine retail/distribution industry until a handful of Dominican businessmen (of Italian/Arab/Spanish ancestry) decided that its time for the Dominican wine industry to become a reality. About a decade or so ago there have been greater efforts in creating a wine niche market including teaching Dominicans how to appreciate and consume a good wine, having wine tasting parties, etc. Today, wine consumption is at its highest it has ever been in Dominican history and is already quite a profitable business segment. However, the guys that started this trend pretty much dominate it, and trying to enter this market will be very difficult for any newcomer, unless you form an alliance with one of the established players. A decade or so ago, entering the wine industry was much easier, albeit only those with a little imagination and self-confidence decided to take the risk, since there wasn't much of a wine industry then. The players are mostly white/light skin because they started this industry, but had the players been mulatto or black, they would had been successful and they would had dominated this industry without a problem. This is why I say it's more a historical circumstance issue than anything else, since aside from established sectors, there is nothing in place to discourage or stop anyone, white, black, mulatto or otherwise; from trying their luck in developing a new Dominican industry and becoming a big player. Once you become the big player for a segment, you pretty much make the rules of the game.

There is also the illicit component, they are generally looked down upon by everyone. Anyone that is into that and manages to look 'legitimate' and later is known that they were involved in illicit activities, will be dropped from many of these social circles faster than you can say wow.

There are many grey areas in which none of this applies, but this is the overall picture.

Good points.

 

[mountainannie]

In fact, I think each country that has an issue of "self hate" of color should be analyzed individually. For example, apparently Haiti has it's own issue with color. How could that be, after all the whites were kicked off the island over two hundred years ago and were discouraged from emigrating to Haiti due to laws to prevent their citizenship? Yes, there is still a lot of animosity towards white people in Haiti but then again lighter skin is preferred if I understand correctly. It could be due then to the association with affluence with lighter skin. So how could this come to be? Could it have been influenced by the fact successful foreigner businessmen came and intermarried with Hatians and their offspring inherited the businesses or are attitudes from 200 years ago still prevailing today? It's probably a combination of both.

I think each country should be analyzed in this way or at the very least the DR because it is relatively unique because it's history of occupation by Haiti and relatively small slave population.

The issue of race in Haiti is grounded in the historical fact that the children of the French planters and their slaves - who are the ancestors of the present day Mulattos- were born free. They were often sent to France to be educated and became the "elite" class - which today continues to write their major newspapers and laws in a language that only 15-20% can read and write.

Duvalier, pere, overturned some of this with his "noiriste" revolution but the roots are deep.

 

[caribNY]

I find it odd that we've gotten this far and nobody has mentioned the belligerant historical relationship between the Dominicans and Haitians and how that has caused the outlooks that are evident today.

In fact, I think each country that has an issue of "self hate" of color should be analyzed individually. For example, apparently Haiti has it's own issue with color. How could that be, after all the whites were kicked off the island over two hundred years ago and were discouraged from emigrating to Haiti due to laws to prevent their citizenship? .

Chip apparently if you followed your own advise and learnt about societies before commenting you would know that the color issues of Haiti have a historical basis. And that it still has relevance today. The mulattos under French rule were a priviledged bunch so much so that some even owned black slaves. They have always been quite powerful in Haiti despite their small numbers.

The Haitian color issue goes BOTH ways. Many Haitians mulattos arent too fond of their black countrymen.

I am sure that the thousands of whites living in Haiti and helping Haitians will be shocked to hear that they face these aggressive hatred from Haitians...ditto those who own factories and other properties there. You do know that many Polish soldiers settled in Haiti after their war of Independence and integrated into that country?

 

[caribNY]

Of course I don't have answers to those questions, and either do you or anyone else. rs.

Did I offer any answers or for that matter make any assertions except to say that MAYBE the DR has skin color issues as do other Caribbean nations? I asked questions.

I find your defensiveness amusing. You dont have the answers and yet you make very bold statements. Maybe you need to with hold opinions until you do have the answers.

I will offer this. In countries where there are socio-economic differences between peoples of different phenotypes its usually do to some or all of the following.

1. Historical racism which results in some groups being disadvantaged relative to others even though there may be few contemporary factors holding them back.

2. EXISTING racism favoring some groups over others.

3. Different ethnic identities and ethnocentrism which favors those from groups with more resources and penalizes others.

4. Different ethnic identities leading to the developing of sub cultures some of which might be disproportionately plagued by self defeating behaviors.

Folks like you claim that there are no separate ethnic identities within the DR except where Haitians are concerned. That what ever "colorism" exists is negligable and not sufficient to matter. And that Dominicans are united by ONE culture suggesting that subcultures with social pathologies limited to particular ethnic groups shouldnt exist except maybe among Haitians and there descendants who are culturally different.

So given that you will argue that points 1-4 are not applicable to the DR then why are there different outcomes for peoples with different phenotypes given that only these physical characteristics differ and that suich differences pose no problems to others?

 

[bob saunders]

Did I offer any answers or for that matter make any assertions except to say that MAYBE the DR has skin color issues as do other Caribbean nations? I asked questions.
Folks like you claim that there are no separate ethnic identities within the DR except where Haitians are concerned. That what ever "colorism" exists is negligable and not sufficient to matter. And that Dominicans are united by ONE culture suggesting that subcultures with social pathologies limited to particular ethnic groups shouldnt exist except maybe among Haitians and there descendants who are culturally different.

I find your defensiveness amusing. You dont have the answers and yet you make very bold statements. Maybe you need to with hold opinions until you do have the answers.

You have a strange sense of humour. Maybe you need to go troll somewhere else. You also don't read very well. No where have I said that there are no separate ethnic identities within the DR. What would I know, I 'm only married to and live daily with Dominicans. I guess you have all the answers.