Tainos in the DR?

SuperConejo

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Link

Here is the link to the video i was talking about, Notice the kid on the left, he is playing the guira. I think its testament to the African Maroon and Taino connection. He looks like a straight up Zambo with strong indegenous features.
zSHARE - palos3.wmv


For those who dont know, Palos or Atabales is an Afro-Dominican music genre. I personally consider it our real national music. Probably the oldest genre on the island. Very lively, gets to you soul.
 
C

Chip00

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I'm, not saying there isnt any Taino dna on the male side, i'm just saying its very miniscule.

I think that Lyn Guitar's work will someday dispel that myth. Please understand that I am not making that reference to ALL Dominicans but to certain groups or people that remain that have still a large part of Indian blood.

Not just that, but when Boyer re-settled the countryside with Africans via Haiti they probably ended up in the same areas as them.

The Haitian occupation was hardly more than a generation and it's influence in the outlying regions is disputable.

Also, the original intent of this thread was NOT to say that ALL Dominicans have Taino blood - but that there are STILL certain groups or people today that have a large percentange of Taino blood.
 

Baracutay

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Hello Everyone, my name is Jorge Estevez and I am very interested if not intrigued by your dialogue on Taino survival in the DR. I see that my name has been mentioned once or twice on here and that of my colleagues. Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Pedro Ferbel.
If anyone is interested, I can be reached via email at Estevezj@si.edu or Baracutay12@aol.com.
I would like very much to be a part of this conversation.
Thank you all in advance.
Jorge
 

jalencastro

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Wow

As promised, here is a picture of the guy who looks like he stepped out of the Brazilan jungle. He works for Edenorte and all the guys who work with him call him "El Peruano".

2iatulh1600x450.jpg

he looks EXACTLY like someone I know from Santiago!
I take it you are referring to the person on the right correct?

Jaime
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Hello Everyone, my name is Jorge Estevez and I am very interested if not intrigued by your dialogue on Taino survival in the DR. I see that my name has been mentioned once or twice on here and that of my colleagues. Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Pedro Ferbel.
If anyone is interested, I can be reached via email at Estevezj@si.edu or Baracutay12@aol.com.
I would like very much to be a part of this conversation.
Thank you all in advance.
Jorge
If you want to join this conversation, simply jump in and give us your insights.

You can expand on the following topics, if you like:

- What challenges have you encountered in the process of reviving the Taino heritage?

- How/when did you realized of your Taino roots? DNA testing? Family stories? Etc.

- How widespread do you think the Taino genes are within the Dominican population?

Or you can read the various responses here and if someone said something you either want to expand upon or, perhaps you may see misinformation, you can try to present the other side of the coin.

Here are other threads regarding this topic:

Taino words in Dominican Spanish

DNA Test on Race Identity

Dominicans and their Ancestry

Arawak/Taino descendants: Dead or Alive?

You can search other threads by using the search feature.
-NALs
 
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Baracutay

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Thank you very much for your cordial invite. Please know that I understand that there are differences of opinions, but I do feel at times that there are certain notions that once ingrained seem very hard to dispel. I will do my best to answer and share as much as I know on the subject. To start I will answer some of your questions:

- What challenges have you encountered in the process of reviving the Taino heritage?

The biggest challenge for me has been showing, demonstrating and explaining what I feel are obvious Taino cultural, linguistic and genetic continuities in the DR and other Islands of the Caribbean. For example, most historians have claimed that our Taino ancestors died within 30 years after contact with the Spanish, but seem to be at a loss at explaining the plethora of Taino words in Dominican Spanish. 800 is the number of place names, common words, names of rivers, flora and fauna that have persisted on the island. At first glance one would assume that the Spanish simply copied the names of things that they did not know. And this of course has always been implied, but a closer look reveals differently. Note the following excerpt from Bartolome de las Casas:
All? ver?ades (en las minas o lavadores de oro) hacer sus mochilas cada uno de vizcocho de la harinilla que les habia sobrado o train de Castilla I llevarlas a cuesta con sus azadores I gamellos o dornajos, que ac? llamaban I hoi llaman bateas. De Las Casas, p.35 TomoIII
In this case you see that the Spanish had not one word but two for an average tray that the Taino called Batea. Anyone familiar with our island would note that we still use the word Batea to describe an object that the Spanish were similarly familiar with. Why? Did the Spanish collectively decide to drop not one name but two in favor of the Taino Batea? This is just one example. In Jamaica where the Tainos were depopulated to a greater extent, one finds that there are very few Taino words left. What we call Guanabana, the call ?soursop? which is English. Is it possible then that the English were more astute in creating names than the Spanish?

- How/when did you realized of your Taino roots? DNA testing? Family stories? Etc.
My Identity was fostered by both my mother and grandmother whom passed away at the age of 104. Since I was young they always referred to their abuelos as Indios. I also noticed that being from the campo we spoke many words that were not common with other Latin American people (I grew up in NY). Out of curiosity I took a DNA test, one that tests for nuclear markers and was surprised to find that my percentages for Native Ancestry were higher than I expected.
But Identity does not start in a test tube, There is a deeper connection to our Native past.

- How widespread do you think the Taino genes are within the Dominican population? In 2003 I and others including Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Martinez Cruzado who did the DNA testing in Puerto Rico, did some field research in the DR. Although we could only gather a few samples (around 150) 33% of these showed Native mitochondria. Dr. Cruzado is set to conduct a wider study in the more isolated areas of the island this summer.
For me it boils down to this, as a people with tripartite origins we will always have four identities: there will always be people claiming to be white, honoring the Spanish and seeing the world through Hispanic eyes. There will always be Dominicans with an affinity to things African and that part of their heritage. Then there will always be, and hopefully with the new revisionist histories and scientific data that supports Taino survival, people who honor the roots of being from the island of Kiskeya. And then of course there will be those who see themselves as a mixture of all three and embody simply being Dominican.
Sorry if I made this too long!
Jorge
 
C

Chip00

Guest
Hello Everyone, my name is Jorge Estevez and I am very interested if not intrigued by your dialogue on Taino survival in the DR. I see that my name has been mentioned once or twice on here and that of my colleagues. Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Pedro Ferbel.
If anyone is interested, I can be reached via email at Estevezj@si.edu or Baracutay12@aol.com.
I would like very much to be a part of this conversation.
Thank you all in advance.
Jorge

Jorge

Greetings. We communicated via email a couple of years ago. I live in Santiago now and sent Lynne an email recently.

Please add to this post if you would like - I'm sure the information would be very enlightening for many. Again - glad to have you on board!

Chip
 
C

Chip00

Guest
Thank you very much for your cordial invite. Please know that I understand that there are differences of opinions, but I do feel at times that there are certain notions that once ingrained seem very hard to dispel. I will do my best to answer and share as much as I know on the subject. To start I will answer some of your questions:

- What challenges have you encountered in the process of reviving the Taino heritage?

The biggest challenge for me has been showing, demonstrating and explaining what I feel are obvious Taino cultural, linguistic and genetic continuities in the DR and other Islands of the Caribbean. For example, most historians have claimed that our Taino ancestors died within 30 years after contact with the Spanish, but seem to be at a loss at explaining the plethora of Taino words in Dominican Spanish. 800 is the number of place names, common words, names of rivers, flora and fauna that have persisted on the island. At first glance one would assume that the Spanish simply copied the names of things that they did not know. And this of course has always been implied, but a closer look reveals differently. Note the following excerpt from Bartolome de las Casas:
All? ver?ades (en las minas o lavadores de oro) hacer sus mochilas cada uno de vizcocho de la harinilla que les habia sobrado o train de Castilla I llevarlas a cuesta con sus azadores I gamellos o dornajos, que ac? llamaban I hoi llaman bateas. De Las Casas, p.35 TomoIII
In this case you see that the Spanish had not one word but two for an average tray that the Taino called Batea. Anyone familiar with our island would note that we still use the word Batea to describe an object that the Spanish were similarly familiar with. Why? Did the Spanish collectively decide to drop not one name but two in favor of the Taino Batea? This is just one example. In Jamaica where the Tainos were depopulated to a greater extent, one finds that there are very few Taino words left. What we call Guanabana, the call ?soursop? which is English. Is it possible then that the English were more astute in creating names than the Spanish?

- How/when did you realized of your Taino roots? DNA testing? Family stories? Etc.
My Identity was fostered by both my mother and grandmother whom passed away at the age of 104. Since I was young they always referred to their abuelos as Indios. I also noticed that being from the campo we spoke many words that were not common with other Latin American people (I grew up in NY). Out of curiosity I took a DNA test, one that tests for nuclear markers and was surprised to find that my percentages for Native Ancestry were higher than I expected.
But Identity does not start in a test tube, There is a deeper connection to our Native past.

- How widespread do you think the Taino genes are within the Dominican population? In 2003 I and others including Dr. Lynne Guitar and Dr. Martinez Cruzado who did the DNA testing in Puerto Rico, did some field research in the DR. Although we could only gather a few samples (around 150) 33% of these showed Native mitochondria. Dr. Cruzado is set to conduct a wider study in the more isolated areas of the island this summer.
For me it boils down to this, as a people with tripartite origins we will always have four identities: there will always be people claiming to be white, honoring the Spanish and seeing the world through Hispanic eyes. There will always be Dominicans with an affinity to things African and that part of their heritage. Then there will always be, and hopefully with the new revisionist histories and scientific data that supports Taino survival, people who honor the roots of being from the island of Kiskeya. And then of course there will be those who see themselves as a mixture of all three and embody simply being Dominican.
Sorry if I made this too long!
Jorge

On the contrary very interesting. BTW if you ever in Santiago look me up. Send my regards to Lynne please.
 

Baracutay

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I think I do remember you Chip! That was a few years ago. Lots has happened since then. Please do contact Lynne.I sent her the picture of you and "el peruano" and she pointed out that you too have Indigenous features.
I am awaiting the "official" results of a recent Cardiological study that was conducted by a medical team here in the USA. The study was to localize and compare the different cardiological problems facing Caucasian Americans and Afro-Americans. Both of which would then be compared to a "mulato" population to see if the same cardiological problems are found in a population with this mixture. Naturally, they used Dominicans to compare their analysis. But to the utter surprise of the team, most of the Dominicans did not match the "mulato" criteria. The team then decided to look into the genome of the Dominicans and found that most had Indigenous genetic markers.
I am supposed to receive the official results in a few months and will make it available to all that are interested. Although, certainly not difinative with the small numbers involved in the study,it nontheless very intriguing.
Taiwei Waitiao
Jorge
 
C

Chip00

Guest
I think I do remember you Chip! That was a few years ago. Lots has happened since then. Please do contact Lynne.I sent her the picture of you and "el peruano" and she pointed out that you too have Indigenous features.
I am awaiting the "official" results of a recent Cardiological study that was conducted by a medical team here in the USA. The study was to localize and compare the different cardiological problems facing Caucasian Americans and Afro-Americans. Both of which would then be compared to a "mulato" population to see if the same cardiological problems are found in a population with this mixture. Naturally, they used Dominicans to compare their analysis. But to the utter surprise of the team, most of the Dominicans did not match the "mulato" criteria. The team then decided to look into the genome of the Dominicans and found that most had Indigenous genetic markers.
I am supposed to receive the official results in a few months and will make it available to all that are interested. Although, certainly not difinative with the small numbers involved in the study,it nontheless very intriguing.
Taiwei Waitiao
Jorge

Jorge

Sorry to let you down but I'm not in the photo. That was another guy who worked for Edenorte. I didn't know how to ask for a photo so I took some photos of all the crew in order to be able to get one of "El Peruano" haha!

Sorry to let you down but I'm just an ugly gringo!(see below) however, my wife and her family appears to have some Taino traits. Also, believe it or not supposedly my family in my father's mother's side was dark - enough so that my Mom says they were part black! Another thing to is I found out recently that our namesake was a relatively famous privateer (contracted pirate) from Sainte Domingue - so I'm still Quiskeyano!

Also, I sent an email to Lynne but didn't get answer - could you send me a private message with her info?

Cuidate primo

Chip

2qxnrsj.jpg
 

Baracutay

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Beautiful Family Chip! Please forgive me for not realizing that the handsome young man was not you! Trust me Chip next to me you look like Brad Pit! I am trying to insert a picture of my family but am unbale to.
I will send you Lynne Guitar's information on Monday when I return to work.
Hasta pronto paisano
 
C

Chip00

Guest
Beautiful Family Chip! Please forgive me for not realizing that the handsome young man was not you! Trust me Chip next to me you look like Brad Pit! I am trying to insert a picture of my family but am unbale to.
I will send you Lynne Guitar's information on Monday when I return to work.
Hasta pronto paisano

For posting pics here is an easy FREE way. go to TinyPic - Share The Experience!? and upload the picture you want from your computer to tinypic.com and afer it is uploaded a screen will appear with the internet adress that starts with "[IMG".... Just paste the whole mess into your post and voila it appears!
 

A.Hidalgo

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Apr 28, 2006
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Population decline
The main catalyst for Taino society's drastic decline was due to smallpox. Constant attacks by the rival Carib tribes had and harsh treatment by the Spaniards merely accelerated the process. Taino society collapsed, but their bloodlines became woven in with those of new settlers, mainly Europeans and Africans.

The above quote is taken from Wikipedia and I think it sums up the matter pretty well of the Taino culture in the Dominican Republic. I do have an issue with the anthropologist Lynne Guitar's statement that she hopefully has cleared up the myth that all Dominicans and their culture are Spanish. Where did she get that from. Even a campesino knows this not to be true.
---------------------
Also the following is from the same article.
Survivors
Most scholars believe that of the Island populations of Ciboney, Taino and Carib, only the Carib survive today. On the mainland of South America there are some 2,450 (1980 census) Arawaks living in Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, and French Guyana with 2,051 in Suriname. The Caribs on mainland South America number 10,225 (2000 WCD) in Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, and French Guyana.

I'm presuming these Carib's who survive till present day are descendants with no blood line mixture. In other words pretty much pure bred.


Arawak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

A.Hidalgo

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Hey guys I'm so happy you found yourselves again, but lets get back to the subject of the OP. Nice families...congrats.:cheeky:
 

Baracutay

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I did not quite understand the last post, but I would like to explain a little about Dr. Lynne Guitar's work and how she came to her conclusions. Also I find Wikipedia to be an un-reliable source of information since anyone can go in and do edit information.
Dr. Guitar and I met over 13 years ago when she was an African Studies major working on her dissertation based in part on the relationships between the 3 races on the island before 1545. At that time she believed what was taken for granted by most scholars that the Taino had become extinct. She later moved to the DR and after visiting the campo noticed a very obvious contractiction between what has been said academically about the Taino and what can be visually witnessed of the campesino material culture, customs, etc.
It was this intial realization that led her all the way to Sevilla, Spain for two years to look through the archives. Within the archives there were further inconsistancies. One of these happens to deal with the diseases that were decimating the Classic Taino. The Spanish never controlled the whole island in its entirety, leaving many areas where the Taino would flee too. The only Indians dying from disease were the ones living in the peripheral areas. Also the census records tend to be un-reliable as well. Today in the age of computers we cannot get an accurate count on the island, imagine then 500 years ago, when people were deliberately hiding from the Spanish....
Other facts she's uncovered deal with racial classification. For example the term "mestizo" was used for the first time in 1586, almost a hundred years after Columbus landed. That leaves a whole lot of people left out of the census records that were mixed blood Indians living very much like our campesinos live today. The term mulato is another whos meaning is not static. The Spanish originally used the word mulato for ANY mixture of different races. This of course included mixtures with Indians.
But to get back to the original threads: the question was are there people in the DR today with Taino blood? The answer is yes. Now the discussion is not about whether there is but rather how much there is. By this time next year we will have an accurate number due to DNA sequencing studies that will be conducted this summer on the island. Already from an initial study 33% showed Taino mitochondira. If this number is accurate (it can be lower or higher) then 33% of 9 million Dominicans showing Taino genes is a very large number indeed and begs for a deeper understanding of our roots and our history.
Again my apologies for making these posts so long!
Jorge