sancochojoe said:
Ok How about the US and Canada?
Any Denial that illegal immigration of Haitians into the DR is a problem is either political correctness or just plain ignorance.
The DR is closer to being another Haiti than another US.
- Thread starter ltsnyder
- Start date
The Haiti Syndrome
Ok How about the US and Canada?
Any Denial that illegal immigration of Haitians into the DR is a problem is either political correctness or just plain ignorance.
The DR is closer to being another Haiti than another US.
XT has it about.....
right. Illegal immigrants, no matter their skin color/religion/etc, can absolutely kill another country's economy. May not obtain down in DR if there aren't many Haitians, but other examples aren't hard to find:
Germany even with its weak economy is struggling to keep up with not only the East Germans and all those associated problems, but factor in the Kurds, Bosniaks, etc and the average tax payer is near revolt at the moment. France is swamped with North Africans, but can't seem to find a policy that works, so it just flounders about.....now hostage to the Muslim vote. Things they are a'changin' however, and its damned hard to show up in the EU and claim "political" asylum these days.
The situation gets awful when the illegals enter a country that has an anemic economy to start with: Djibouti with Somalis and Ethiopians; Ghana with Ivorians; etc.
Mexicans that cross over to the States may be illegals, but there are other considerations:
[1] They take mainly jobs that no one else will
[2] They pay taxes for the most part
[3] The US economy is big enough to absorb them
QUESTION: Do the Haitians in DR go to work and if so, do they take jobs that Dominicans would otherwise have? Or do the Dominicans refuse to do certain kinds of labor? Predict that nothing will change until the kleptocratic government I think I hear you all talk about, is out of there.
Best, P
right. Illegal immigrants, no matter their skin color/religion/etc, can absolutely kill another country's economy. May not obtain down in DR if there aren't many Haitians, but other examples aren't hard to find:
Germany even with its weak economy is struggling to keep up with not only the East Germans and all those associated problems, but factor in the Kurds, Bosniaks, etc and the average tax payer is near revolt at the moment. France is swamped with North Africans, but can't seem to find a policy that works, so it just flounders about.....now hostage to the Muslim vote. Things they are a'changin' however, and its damned hard to show up in the EU and claim "political" asylum these days.
The situation gets awful when the illegals enter a country that has an anemic economy to start with: Djibouti with Somalis and Ethiopians; Ghana with Ivorians; etc.
Mexicans that cross over to the States may be illegals, but there are other considerations:
[1] They take mainly jobs that no one else will
[2] They pay taxes for the most part
[3] The US economy is big enough to absorb them
QUESTION: Do the Haitians in DR go to work and if so, do they take jobs that Dominicans would otherwise have? Or do the Dominicans refuse to do certain kinds of labor? Predict that nothing will change until the kleptocratic government I think I hear you all talk about, is out of there.
Best, P
Lets see, what does US complain about
one example
"They are taking our jobs!!!"
I would love to see a bunch of Americans out in the fields working and picking fruit and and plucking chicken feathers to put in a supermarkets. There doing work most Americans are too proud to do.
Another example
"There bringing in drugs"
Americans stop using it and they wont supply it.
About DR
If it is such a big problem, then manage the border correctly.
Immigrants are not wondering if it is politically correct if they cross the border. They are thinking about feeding their stomach.
So don't get mad at them. I'm pretty sure if DR bordered the US, there would be illegal Immigrants crossing the border as well.
You believe DR will be another Haiti...is that Haiti's fault or DR's fault.
one example
"They are taking our jobs!!!"
I would love to see a bunch of Americans out in the fields working and picking fruit and and plucking chicken feathers to put in a supermarkets. There doing work most Americans are too proud to do.
Another example
"There bringing in drugs"
Americans stop using it and they wont supply it.
About DR
If it is such a big problem, then manage the border correctly.
Immigrants are not wondering if it is politically correct if they cross the border. They are thinking about feeding their stomach.
So don't get mad at them. I'm pretty sure if DR bordered the US, there would be illegal Immigrants crossing the border as well.
You believe DR will be another Haiti...is that Haiti's fault or DR's fault.
Thanks, Pasha.
You really just read my mind with that post. I was organizing my thoughts to make one more attempt at a rational explanation of the benefits and pitfalls that wouldn't provoke any more boilerplate responses and you beat me to it. Excellent.
I was going to make the point that illegal immigration can cut both ways. Illegal (note this word it's important) Haitian immigrants in the Dominican Republic do indeed take jobs that Dominicans wouldn't dream of doing. This provides a source of inexpensive labor without which the DR economy might completely collapse, if it hasn't already. On the other hand because of the lax tax system here the government collects little in benefits from these workers while at the same time is paying out money for services that they use. That's a very bad thing for a cash poor, overspending, 1st world wannabe, Dominican government. It's quite a burden on other countries like the US, Germany, France, etc. that actually know how to collect taxes! That makes it a much worse problem here.
There is a solution to the dilemma here though. Free government services such as medical care, susidized food and housing, education etc. should be provided only to those with legitimate cedulas. Only emergency medical care should be exempt. Anyone who wants to pay for services should be allowed to resident or not. In this way the benefits of an inexpensive labor pool are retained while the cash drain is largely plugged.
Tom (aka XR)
You really just read my mind with that post. I was organizing my thoughts to make one more attempt at a rational explanation of the benefits and pitfalls that wouldn't provoke any more boilerplate responses and you beat me to it. Excellent.
I was going to make the point that illegal immigration can cut both ways. Illegal (note this word it's important) Haitian immigrants in the Dominican Republic do indeed take jobs that Dominicans wouldn't dream of doing. This provides a source of inexpensive labor without which the DR economy might completely collapse, if it hasn't already. On the other hand because of the lax tax system here the government collects little in benefits from these workers while at the same time is paying out money for services that they use. That's a very bad thing for a cash poor, overspending, 1st world wannabe, Dominican government. It's quite a burden on other countries like the US, Germany, France, etc. that actually know how to collect taxes! That makes it a much worse problem here.
There is a solution to the dilemma here though. Free government services such as medical care, susidized food and housing, education etc. should be provided only to those with legitimate cedulas. Only emergency medical care should be exempt. Anyone who wants to pay for services should be allowed to resident or not. In this way the benefits of an inexpensive labor pool are retained while the cash drain is largely plugged.
Tom (aka XR)
It's only logical in my view, that given the circumstances in Haiti, some are slipping into the DR. And since DR is not a rich country, I would expect that it DOES hurt the economy one way or another. Those who say any country (including US) can just absorb endless streams of people without effect would in my opinion, be very misinformed.Tony C said:
I wonder if Tony would consider others (e.g. Cubans) showing up uninvited on the beach to also be a problem? Especially when they get (at least here in Florida) treated differently than say, when a Dominicano arrives. Ah...but I'm being politically incorrect and starting to stray off topic.
Randy
Any massive influx of immigrants, Legal(Cubans) or illegal(haitians) is a burden on an economy.
The migratian of Haitins can not be described as "some are slipping into the DR." Hundreds are crossing the Border every day. The number of Illegal Haitians has been publihed as between 500K to close to 1 million. Seeing as the DR is a poor country of less than 10 million this is more than just a burden.
The migratian of Haitins can not be described as "some are slipping into the DR." Hundreds are crossing the Border every day. The number of Illegal Haitians has been publihed as between 500K to close to 1 million. Seeing as the DR is a poor country of less than 10 million this is more than just a burden.
Don't know if.....
I don't hear much these days about "taking our jobs" since it's been pretty much dispelled that that's true. Mexican/Central American illegals tend to work the fields and do menial labor that US citizens will not do. And that's not bad. Everyone benefits I believe.
I really haven't heard that drugs is a problem directly linked to illegal workers in the States. Perhaps at the street level peddling on the corner, but those people are at the absolute bottom of the food chain. The real deals are at levels about 10 above them...would you not agree?
Yes, I believe absolutely that Haitians in DR are most like economic refugees looking to find a full stomach. So, what's to be done about it? Seems like the US screwed it up royally in Haiti and now we've got to do something meaningful to make it right.
Best, P
you are responding to my comments and since much of my life is spent outside the US I want to be careful about my remarks [I do try, however, to keep up with major issues and trends in the States].sancochojoe said:
I don't hear much these days about "taking our jobs" since it's been pretty much dispelled that that's true. Mexican/Central American illegals tend to work the fields and do menial labor that US citizens will not do. And that's not bad. Everyone benefits I believe.
I really haven't heard that drugs is a problem directly linked to illegal workers in the States. Perhaps at the street level peddling on the corner, but those people are at the absolute bottom of the food chain. The real deals are at levels about 10 above them...would you not agree?
Yes, I believe absolutely that Haitians in DR are most like economic refugees looking to find a full stomach. So, what's to be done about it? Seems like the US screwed it up royally in Haiti and now we've got to do something meaningful to make it right.
Best, P
Can someone tell me what the burden would constitute?
I would like to hear what has about 500k Haitians stripped from
Dominicans Of those 500k. do you beleive that all of the 500k Haitians have jobs in DR. What is the WORKING population of Haitians in DR.
What is the answer for the 10% of Dominicans that have over 40% of the wealth in the country. How do you address that.
Are they stimulating the economy with jobs and infrastructure.
As far as US the total illigal immigration count is
estimated at 7 million. 90 thousand are Dominicans. That 7 million constitutes 2.9% of the so called US BURDEN. Most are probably working and stimulating the economy. After all who else wants to make $5 and hour in the States.
I would like to hear what has about 500k Haitians stripped from
Dominicans Of those 500k. do you beleive that all of the 500k Haitians have jobs in DR. What is the WORKING population of Haitians in DR.
What is the answer for the 10% of Dominicans that have over 40% of the wealth in the country. How do you address that.
Are they stimulating the economy with jobs and infrastructure.
As far as US the total illigal immigration count is
estimated at 7 million. 90 thousand are Dominicans. That 7 million constitutes 2.9% of the so called US BURDEN. Most are probably working and stimulating the economy. After all who else wants to make $5 and hour in the States.
Tony C said:
That's a big hit for sure Tony. I did not know it was so large.
To answer some of the other comments about the U.S., I agree with you all - a minimum wage earner generally is not "taking our jobs", in the U.S. or DR. However there are other costs. Sombody has to pay for the drain on the health care system, school system and available housing, but to name a few.
Pasha, the latest concern is about U.S. companies, as a result of globalization, being able to export white-collar high tech jobs overseas (e.g. India, China, Malaysia) where they can exploit the workers at will, meanwhile giving Americans with college degrees a pink slip. Hope this won't happen in the DR. It sucks and will likely happen to me!
Randy
Hi there......
Yours is a valid question concerning percentage of Haitians working versus unemployed in DR. Maybe someone will come up with a reasonable answer for you.
If 10% of Dominicans have 40% of the wealth, that's not good, but those're not the worst figures I've ever seen. In some places 1% have 90%. How about them apples? Now, what you do about it is a local issue.
Best, P
I hope you're not wound up over something I said....if so, you're arguing with yourself. I tend to agree that the illegals in the US, particularly if you're correct in your percentages re Dominicans, is not of much concern.sancochojoe said:
Yours is a valid question concerning percentage of Haitians working versus unemployed in DR. Maybe someone will come up with a reasonable answer for you.
If 10% of Dominicans have 40% of the wealth, that's not good, but those're not the worst figures I've ever seen. In some places 1% have 90%. How about them apples? Now, what you do about it is a local issue.
Best, P
no I'm not wound up Pasha, it was not directed at you.
It was a general response to the whole post. I'll try to put someone's name down if I'm specific.
But..
The immigration statistics come
from the US's INS web site on statistics of
all illigal immigrants in the country broken down by
country and what state they assumed to be in.
It was a general response to the whole post. I'll try to put someone's name down if I'm specific.
But..
The immigration statistics come
from the US's INS web site on statistics of
all illigal immigrants in the country broken down by
country and what state they assumed to be in.
Absurdity at its best
Stone me if you will, but here is my new cents:
The DR is in part to blame for the so called "Haitian" problem that it is facing, but they will never admit that. True enough, illegal immigration is a problem that must be dealt with, but I for one do not believe that the solution for bad political leadership in the DR should rest on the back of Haitian immigrants. Lets be reasonable. Would those immigrants continue there arduous journey into a foreign land, if they did not believe that there would be a job waiting for them at the other end?
If every Haitian was rounded up and sent back to Haiti, would that solve the issue of the declining peso?
How are the Haitian immigrants responssible for the Baniter failings?
How many Haitian households are stealing electrical power to maintain the use of their TV, VCR and Air conditioning units thereby causing electrical shortage in the country?
How many Haitian immigrants in the DR drive big expensive SUV's that tear up the poorly maintained roads, yet complain about paying their fair share of tax dollars to repair them?
Again stone me if you will, but I think we're barking up the wrong tree.
As far as the immigration problem goes, I have a few suggestions that just might work :
The government of the DR should hold a high level meeting with the government of haiti to discuss the issue of border reforms. These reforms should include the following.
1- Immediate deportation (within 24 hours) of any illegal immigrants caught crossing the border.
2- strict penalties, to include jail sentence to anyone caught transporting human cargo across border lines.
3- High penalty fines and misdemeanor charges should be brought against any employer who knowingly hire an illegal immigrant.
4- Mandatory jail sentence and corrupt charges should be filed against any official who participates in the facilitation of immigrant smuggling.
5- Mandatory guest visas with return tickets required for any students travelling to either side of the border.
6- Extradition treaty between the two countries to prevent one nation from offering sancturary to goverment embezlers and military criminals escaping the other nation.
I dont expect that these reforms will solve all of the problems between the two nations, but it will at least dissmiss a whole lot of myths and finger pointings.
Stone me if you will, but here is my new cents:
The DR is in part to blame for the so called "Haitian" problem that it is facing, but they will never admit that. True enough, illegal immigration is a problem that must be dealt with, but I for one do not believe that the solution for bad political leadership in the DR should rest on the back of Haitian immigrants. Lets be reasonable. Would those immigrants continue there arduous journey into a foreign land, if they did not believe that there would be a job waiting for them at the other end?
If every Haitian was rounded up and sent back to Haiti, would that solve the issue of the declining peso?
How are the Haitian immigrants responssible for the Baniter failings?
How many Haitian households are stealing electrical power to maintain the use of their TV, VCR and Air conditioning units thereby causing electrical shortage in the country?
How many Haitian immigrants in the DR drive big expensive SUV's that tear up the poorly maintained roads, yet complain about paying their fair share of tax dollars to repair them?
Again stone me if you will, but I think we're barking up the wrong tree.
As far as the immigration problem goes, I have a few suggestions that just might work :
The government of the DR should hold a high level meeting with the government of haiti to discuss the issue of border reforms. These reforms should include the following.
1- Immediate deportation (within 24 hours) of any illegal immigrants caught crossing the border.
2- strict penalties, to include jail sentence to anyone caught transporting human cargo across border lines.
3- High penalty fines and misdemeanor charges should be brought against any employer who knowingly hire an illegal immigrant.
4- Mandatory jail sentence and corrupt charges should be filed against any official who participates in the facilitation of immigrant smuggling.
5- Mandatory guest visas with return tickets required for any students travelling to either side of the border.
6- Extradition treaty between the two countries to prevent one nation from offering sancturary to goverment embezlers and military criminals escaping the other nation.
I dont expect that these reforms will solve all of the problems between the two nations, but it will at least dissmiss a whole lot of myths and finger pointings.
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Asked, an answered. Just re-read the posts above.sancochojoe said:
The burden is not from illegal immigrants taking jobs from Dominicans unless the immigrants are in competition for the same jobs. In the Dominican Republic, illegal immigrants, mostly Haitian, are not competing for the same jobs. So a net plus.
The burden comes from the economic strain of paying for services for a population of illegals that do not contribute sufficiently to pay for the services. An argument can be made that they work, and the money they earn helps the economy. That's not a powerful argument here though because they jobs pay very little, so even taxed at 100% it'd be hard to see how that money finds it's way back to government coffers to pay for the social infrastructure demanded by Dominicans and erected by the government.
Further, there is a big difference in how illegals here from Haiti, and in California from Mexico or Asia behave economically. In the U.S. those illegals migrate very quickly in most cases from low paying jobs, to setting up their own business. Stores, day-cares, laundry's, cleaning companies. You name it. And owned by illegals or not, those companies pay taxes big time and that does contribute significantly to the economy there.
Here in the DR I have not seen any evidence that Haitian illegal immigrants form there own companies and businesses and provide that kind of an economic impact. Instead, they stay stratified and trapped in low-end, menial jobs that do little to help the economy other than providing a source for low-cost labor. And again, that's at the expense of everyone else who pays for legitimate government services and programs which disproportionately injure poor Dominicans at the expense of the illegals.
Yes. They are. What's the answer? Kick the other 90% in the butt and get them to be more productive. Oh, I know. It's just so much easier to reach into that 10%'s pockets and steal it to hand back to the other 90% that are playing dominos.sancochojoe said:
Tom (aka XR)
JWB, Please dont quote me out of context
What I said was:
They should just take em all, from Hippo to Leonel, from Lila to Pacheco and everyone in betwee, line'em up in the rio masacre and ........what was it that trujillo did way back then?
In reference to our politicians and their lack of efficiency in dealing with the problems that plague us.
With that said, I would like to point out that the so called Hatian problem is not something new. Ever since the French settled here to share the island with the Spaniards there has been migratory exodus from one side to the other. Time and time again they've settled to the east and the population of the east has attempted to push them back.
It is not a new problem we are talking about here people. Dominicans have dealt with this in the past before. The issue now is that Hatians are supplying an important labor service here and we are paying for that labor in other ways than one. They are cheaper, most work informally so they dont collect prestaciones or require a medical or dental plan but we have to put up with them settling for an undetermined amount of time here, using our resources and living exempt them from taxes they dont pay like the rest of us. If Hatians payed taxes and requested work formally, do you really think they would constitute a problem that would merit a discussion in a thread?
When dealing illegal immigrants accross the border no longer represents an economic endeavour from the congressman that coordinated their entrance with the military who let them thru the gates - to the driver who took them to the places where work is being found - to the ingeniero who hires them to work in your brand new condo, villa or golf course and saves a bundle (translate to bigger profits) not paying any prestaciones at the end of the construction or guaranteeing his workers a required by law insurance or medical plan, we'll get pissed off again and kick them out of the DR.
Untill then we are all aboard this little place we love so much thats going to hell ina a bucket as fast as Hippo can push us there.
What I said was:
They should just take em all, from Hippo to Leonel, from Lila to Pacheco and everyone in betwee, line'em up in the rio masacre and ........what was it that trujillo did way back then?
In reference to our politicians and their lack of efficiency in dealing with the problems that plague us.
With that said, I would like to point out that the so called Hatian problem is not something new. Ever since the French settled here to share the island with the Spaniards there has been migratory exodus from one side to the other. Time and time again they've settled to the east and the population of the east has attempted to push them back.
It is not a new problem we are talking about here people. Dominicans have dealt with this in the past before. The issue now is that Hatians are supplying an important labor service here and we are paying for that labor in other ways than one. They are cheaper, most work informally so they dont collect prestaciones or require a medical or dental plan but we have to put up with them settling for an undetermined amount of time here, using our resources and living exempt them from taxes they dont pay like the rest of us. If Hatians payed taxes and requested work formally, do you really think they would constitute a problem that would merit a discussion in a thread?
When dealing illegal immigrants accross the border no longer represents an economic endeavour from the congressman that coordinated their entrance with the military who let them thru the gates - to the driver who took them to the places where work is being found - to the ingeniero who hires them to work in your brand new condo, villa or golf course and saves a bundle (translate to bigger profits) not paying any prestaciones at the end of the construction or guaranteeing his workers a required by law insurance or medical plan, we'll get pissed off again and kick them out of the DR.
Untill then we are all aboard this little place we love so much thats going to hell ina a bucket as fast as Hippo can push us there.
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Very Well Said, SAMIAM.
Now if we were all smart, rational, logical DR1'er human beings, that post would be the last word on the immigrant part of this imminent shipwreck the Bald Hippo is piloting us into.
What was the original question again? :: smile ::
Tom (aka XR)
Now if we were all smart, rational, logical DR1'er human beings, that post would be the last word on the immigrant part of this imminent shipwreck the Bald Hippo is piloting us into.
What was the original question again? :: smile ::
Tom (aka XR)
XanaduRanch
Hey, if I have time to play dominos, i'm playing....
Leave dominos out of this. It's not their fault that they are
constantly being slapped against the table all the time.
Hey, if I have time to play dominos, i'm playing....
Leave dominos out of this. It's not their fault that they are
constantly being slapped against the table all the time.
Seems like Haiti is a Hot Button word . . .
The tread was about what Jwb, sancochojoe (I think) and Porfio_Rubirosa all acknowledged as the primary problems with the on-going decline experienced in the DR. I personally feel it has nothing to do with Haiti or Haitian's and any one who claims there is a connection is making a leap of the imagination that defys all logic. I heard so many of you say how Dominicans can't face thier problems, but these X-patriats seem to be ready to place blame on some one else real fast. X even if the Hospital/Medical cost of these illegals were a burdun to the DR, can you think of a better issue to discuss when trying to finger how this decline could be stopped? (maybe oh hummmm . . . better banking regulations? ).
One other thought came to my mind last night, after some one mentioned deforestation of the DR, I remember some one mentioning that Deforestation in Haiti reached a point of no return during the US embargo against the country, which left the peasants of the country with no other fuel source. Could this devaluation bring about the same kind of consequences in the DR? Or has any one observed any indications of this direction in the campos?
-Lee
The tread was about what Jwb, sancochojoe (I think) and Porfio_Rubirosa all acknowledged as the primary problems with the on-going decline experienced in the DR. I personally feel it has nothing to do with Haiti or Haitian's and any one who claims there is a connection is making a leap of the imagination that defys all logic. I heard so many of you say how Dominicans can't face thier problems, but these X-patriats seem to be ready to place blame on some one else real fast. X even if the Hospital/Medical cost of these illegals were a burdun to the DR, can you think of a better issue to discuss when trying to finger how this decline could be stopped? (maybe oh hummmm . . . better banking regulations?
).One other thought came to my mind last night, after some one mentioned deforestation of the DR, I remember some one mentioning that Deforestation in Haiti reached a point of no return during the US embargo against the country, which left the peasants of the country with no other fuel source. Could this devaluation bring about the same kind of consequences in the DR? Or has any one observed any indications of this direction in the campos?
-Lee
Out of Context ?
Samian, it's not my style to take part in mudslinging brawls and I apologize if I missread your post.
However, my point from the very begining was that whenever this topic comes up, it is guaranteed that someone will mention the quote that you didn't post as the best alternative to the immigration problem.
Samian, it's not my style to take part in mudslinging brawls and I apologize if I missread your post.
However, my point from the very begining was that whenever this topic comes up, it is guaranteed that someone will mention the quote that you didn't post as the best alternative to the immigration problem.