The Haiti Syndrome

[Chirimoya]

If I am not mistaken, the OT was about whether the DR was becoming more like Haiti. Not about the relationship between the two countries. Beside the point that Haiti is our neighbour, the comparison was made because of Haiti's unfortunate claim to fame as the poorest in the western hemisphere and amongst the 10 poorest countries in the whole world.

I take on board Porfio's comments about alarming deteriorations in the rural areas here in the DR, but I still think we are a long way away from Haitian levels on the following counts, even though all would agree the Dominican Republic is sliding down the scale on each and every point, and that this is a cause for serious concern.

- Human development indicators: life expectancy, infant mortality, malnutrition levels, school attendance, etc

- Economic indicators like income per capita, GDP, employment

- Environmental problems like deforestation and pollution

- Evidence of affluence: car ownership, consumer activity, upmarket developments

- Social order, stability, crime rate

- Governance...

- Infrastructure: roads, electricity, water etc

I last visited Haiti 5 years ago and by all accounts things are far worse now, so I am using that as my yardstick. I don't think I need to spell out the comparisons, nor quote statistics, which as Porfio says are always a few years out of date anyway.

Just to say that for those of you who have never been to Haiti, the difference is between a country (DR) that more or less works, and one that seems permanently poised on the brink of total collapse. The miracle is that it keeps going at all.

Anyway I hope to have more first hand information about Haiti to back up my point of view soon.

Chiri

 

[sancochojoe]

well they are almost close. DR may not be last but
they are definately close.

GNI (Gross National Income)

Per Capita

DR - ~$2100

Haiti - ~$600

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

GNI (Gross National Income)

Per Capita

DR - ~$2100

Haiti - ~$600 [/B]

Add to that:

USA - $37,600

Costa Rica - $8,500

Botswana - $9,500

Mexico - $9,000

It may be difficult for us to accept, but the DR and Haiti don't appear that different to middle class American eyes.

Good point about deforestation, LT. Balaguer was a stalwart against it in the DR, thank God. Now he's gone. I already see people in the campo disconnecting their propane tanks and going back to charcoal, with horrible implications.





I know I said "don't cite statistics"

 

[mobrouser]

Consider this my own "dead horse"

one other statistic to think about:


the number of Haitians accessing medical services at Dominican public hospitals was roughly 31,000 in 2001. (DR1 news Feb.15/02)

The number of Illegal Haitians has been publihed as between 500K to close to 1 million.

between 3 and 6% of those illegals are using a service to which they are not entitled. and how many government officials are pocketing money to which they are not entitled?

mob

 

[mkohn]

Are you suggesting the Hatians are not the DR's biggest problem?
Hmmmmm.
mk

 

[ERICKXSON]

Yes they are! One of DR's Biggest Problems take a look at how much Money goes to them>>>>

DR BIGGEST PROBLEM IS POLITCOS CORRUPTOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we all know that

 

[XanaduRanch]

Well, If We're Back to This ...

one other statistic to think about: the number of Haitians accessing medical services at Dominican public hospitals was roughly 31,000 in 2001. (DR1 news Feb.15/02)

Those are the ones that stood up and said "Hey! I am a Haitian citizen here in the Dominican Republic illegally. Um. Could you please un-handcuff me and fix this bunyon before you throw me back in the deportation guagua?"

Please. If it's 3%-6% officially, it's 30-60% for real.

Tom (aka XR)

 

[mondongo]

Let me take candy away from the baby.

sigh....i must admit that you reasonable people succumb to the same old arguments much too readily.

Before Mejia took office, the DR was held up as a decade long positive econmic example in Latin America. We outpaced nearly every country in the Americas.


Three years later, we are on the verge of a meltdown. Here comes the punch line:

Choose the best answer to the following:

1. Year 2000 DR prosperity: Year 2003 DR Economic meltdown

a) Leonel: Hippolito
b) Year 2000 Hatian drain on the DR economy: Year 2003 Hatian drain on the DR economy

I'll go first: a)

 

[sancochojoe]

Here is another reason why..........

90% of DR's trade relationship is with.....guess who......the US.

And since the US economy is not all that great, DR is only reflecting the same downturn. Unfortunately US can recover,
but DR will take some heavy blows in the process.

Diversify DR.....Diversify

When you put all your eggs in one basket..........helloooooo McFlyyyy

 

[mobrouser]

Are you suggesting the Hatians are not the DR's biggest problem?
Hmmmmm.
mk

mary, i just wish that people here would cite facts. i am tired of reading time after time what a burden the Haitians are to the RD economy without anything to support the statement. i am very tired of hearing how since i don't live there i don't understand the "problem".

erickxson, how much money goes to "them"? what was the total health expenditure in RD in 2001?

xr, so sorry my schedule doesn't match yours. we'll have to work on that won't we.

I agree at least for now, that Haitians do not represent a significant problem.

does this:

If it's 3%-6% officially, it's 30-60% for real.

mean you've changed your stance?

the use of medical and other Dominican government services by illegals to which they are not entitled does represent a net cash loss

either it is significant or it's not. please make up your mind.

mob

 

[mkohn]

mary, i just wish that people here would cite facts. i am tired of reading time after time what a burden the Haitians are ...

mob, i'm with ya 100%. It's easy to put the blame on the illegal immigrant. we do it in the us ALL the time. they take jobs - nobody wants the job. they use the services - it's a drop in the bucket as far as the big money is concerned. etc. etc. etc.
the illegal Hatians don't appear to be getting rich off of their 'schemes.' maybe a little education for their children. maybe a little hope. and i think the point is that the polititians and big business are raking in the dough from maybe even greedier polititians and businesses who are looking for their big pay off.
The stakes just seem to be a lot higher at that level.
mk

 

[XanaduRanch]

Dang it people, read my posts. You need to understand them and not selectively ignore information that jus doesn't happen to fit your personal misconceptions before you make a response to avoid coming off looking like an idiot.

ONE I have stated in previous posts in this thread and continue to have to repeat that the money drain caused by illegal immigration is the fault of the host government. As far as I am concerned the DR does not have the resources to provide Western European socialist style services to its citizens. THEY SHOULD STOP because they can't afford it. They especially can't afford to provide those services to illegals.

TWOMy position is completely consistent. You don't understand the numbers you posted apparaently. Let me help you. The post said that 3-6% of the Haitian population in the DR used these medical service in that year. Not that 3%-6% of all free medical services were used by Haitians. That's 3%-6% of 500,000 to 1,000,000 population, or anywhere from 15,000 to 60,000 free visits. Knowing that legal Haitians, and even American citizens who look like Haitians here often face severe harrassment I am positive that number is far far higher and stand by my estimate.

THREEOne of my last posts also said that Haitians are not profiting from their stay here in the same way Mexicans or Asians in the U.S. do. But MaryKohn it cuts both ways. If the population isn't doing anything but subsiding while using resources needed to help Dominicans then there isn't any great benefit to the economy and the result is still a net drain. And that net drain is coming at the expense of poor Dominicans, and helping those corrupt businessmen and politicians get richer. Think about that.

When considering education, schooling, and all the other free services the government here doles out with promises to pay while incurring more debt to pay for them, that becomes a significant impact on the medical system and those other free services, yes. In terms of the other galaxy-class problems this administration has created, probably no. But, fixing a nightmare like the Dominican economy has become requires thousands of little fixes. There is no one big fix. Have you ever budgeted? Same thing. It's the little things that add up to the solution. But it's ignorant in the extreme not to realize that handing out free services to people that aren't paying for them is not a smart idea.

My last word on the subject. I do not blame Haitians at all. Some of my best friends are Haitian or Dominican of Haitian origin. But the way this government has run the Dominican economy into the ground ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that drains money from the system needs to be corrected or they will never be able to climb out of this hole.

Tom (aka XR)

P.S.
Why did I know that we couldn't just be smart enough to let SAMIAM have the last word. He said everything that could be said perfectly and succinctly.

 

[sancochojoe]

Generally stating,

its amazing how the middle and low class people bicker among themselves no matter the topic when it comes to the problems of the country and yet, a lot of it has to do with the Government or the top 10% that create an facilitates these problems.

Why do we direct our anger and blame others who are only using and doing what the system allows us to do.

The governement and wealthy people are just laughing at us.

"look at those petty subjects fighting among themselves, blaming each other for the problems we created, honey please pass the crumpets and tell my secretary to call HR and hire more haitians for cheap labor so we can maintain our bottom line. Oh and Bob, if we can't maintain our bottom line, make sure we shutdown our Chicago plant and open it up in a Barrio in Mexico"

 

[XanaduRanch]

"look at those petty subjects fighting among themselves, blaming each other for the problems we created, honey please pass the crumpets and tell my secretary to call HR and hire more haitians for cheap labor so we can maintain our bottom line. Oh and Bob, if we can't maintain our bottom line, make sure we shutdown our Chicago plant and open it up in a Barrio in Mexico"

And BULLY for them! The workers in those impoverished areas get jobs at the going local rate at minimum and usually much better. My responsibility is to my comapny and my shareholders not to a ntaion, city, state or other locality.

You people keep missing the point.

It's the FREE handouts everyone demands as their birthright from governments only to willing to provide that narcotic in exchange for a vote that is the problem. That includes $40/hr UAW workers who apparently aren't smart enough to buy their own health insurance so they have to demand that their company deduct the money from their checks and buy it for them, or want the government to provide it, or want free daycare, right on up to the graft that the Dominican government hands out to its cronies to keep itself in power.

 

[Chirimoya]

Moderators, this thread has gone in two directions. The OP was about whether the DR is becoming more like Haiti, but it has also evolved into a discussion about the impact on the DR of having Haiti as a neighbour.

There are two main points I would like to contribute to the second strand of the discussion:

1. Every nation needs its "Haiti". Think about it. If the worst comes to the worst, declare war on it!

Whether the threat is real or not, what better than to have a next door neighbour that we can blame for all our problems and thus divert attention from the government's home-grown mistakes?

To this government's credit (duck!) one of the things that they have not sunk to is playing the Haiti card. If anything, Hipolito has often raised the point at international meetings that the international community must take some responsibility for Haiti as opposed to leaving it to self-destruct, which would lead to a sad state of affairs in the DR as well as in Haiti itself of course.

2. Off the top of my head, could we do a cost/benefit analysis of having Haiti as a neighbour? I remember golo once said he would never employ a Haitian maid if he were to be true to his principles about not encouraging illegal immigration. If all Dominicans were to follow suit, what would the extra cost be to the individual Dominican and the economy as a whole? The middle and upper classes would have to pay more to employ Dominican maids and gardeners. Housing would be even more expensive if we were to depend on Dominican labourers. Not to mention agriculture... what would the sugar industry do without its batallions of slave labourers?

I was surprised to see my old acquaintance Charles Arthur here. I wonder what he thinks of all this...

Food for thought, anyway.

Chiri

 

[ltsnyder]

XanaduRanch be careful your colors are showing . . . . .

As Chirimoya said clearly, and all others in this thread seem to see clearly, the origional point was that "whether the DR is becoming more like Haiti", the fact that you can only discuss the Haitian impact on the Dominican economy belies some prejudice on your part I beleive, for you can only see something similar happening in the Dominican Republic if the Haitians have something to do with it. Let me speculate here, you feel the Haitians are poor, not due to the high population level, or effects of an embargo, but simply because they are Haitian, therefore the Dominican Republic could never go that way unless Haitians infiltrated the DR, and no Bank collapse , no corrupt govenment, no forign owned ElNorte could ever do to us, what happened to Haiti.

I mean X, out of all the things you could talk about when talking about a bad economic situation today in the DR, the only thing you can dwell on is the effect of Haitians on the economy.

If Haitians are in the DR it is because many want them here, during the boom years of the DR in the 90s , every hotel, hospital, school (you name it) was built with large number of Haitian workers. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Editted to add:

I really don't even feel like mentioning the word Haitian, it's just an easy out for all you who can't be introspective. Feel like I am in the old south.

-Lee

 

[pasha]

Exactly so....

It's the FREE handouts everyone demands as their birthright from governments only to willing to provide that narcotic in exchange for a vote that is the problem.

Tom -- and it's these blood suckers that killing developed economies world round.

Best, P

 

[mobrouser]

lee i accept full responsibility that XR is still on illegal Haitians. my webtime and his don't match, big deal.

XR that number is 31,000. not 15,000, not 60,000 but 31,000. i fully understand numbers. so what was total health expenditure in 2001?

mob

 

[XanaduRanch]

Some of You Folks need a Reading Comprehension Course

It's impossible to have a debate where folks have that selective hearing syndrome so common here on the message board. Or selective memory. This is true in person, but doubly-so on a message board. This debate drift was not started by me. In fact, I have tried on three seperate occasions now to bring this back on to the main topic from a side issue. No one's listening.

SamIam was the first to reference the Haitians. Typically, those who consider themselves 'liberal' - which I have come to understand is an old Taino word meaning 'one who can't carry a thought from the beach to the Brugal bottle without losing it' - immediately jumped on that quote and dismissed it as baseless.

I don't want to hear a blame it on the increasing Haition population cliche. Population increases no matter what color, go to portugal and tell me it is a happy healty country due to it's whitness.

Rememebr this post? By the way I am still waiting for an answer on what the hell skin color has to do with anything and why you mentioned that here. My 'colors' are always showing, Lee, and I am proud of them. Unfortunately so are yours. Read that post above about color and a white Portugal. You should be ashamed of that.

If you're unwilling to read the previous posts, then to summarize: I simply pointed out why illegal immigration and the handouts that help foster it should not be dismissed out-of-hand because it is indeed one factor at play. The rest of this train wreck was my atempt to wedge a little light into those closed rooms so that could be seen. Not to blame the economic mess on any immigrant population. And I did not.

Read the posts, please. Now for the second time I will suggest that you take SAMIAM's and CHIRI's post as the last word on that subject and move on?

Unfortunately once rid of the Haitian Bogeyman you'll have to deal with much thornier issues for liberals as posted above regarding businesses, consitituencies, and governments, by yours truly and Pasha. The road will not get any easier for you.

Tom (aka XR)

 

[Criss Colon]

The highest form of Ignorance,and Arrogance!!!

Just as some people never listen when someone else is talking,some people never read,when someone else is "Posting"!and you "DON"T" know who you are!!! If you did,you MIGHT not do it!!!

I read the posts over and over again,searching for the slightest nuance that I can use "against" the poster!!!Takes time,but well worth the effort! But then there are guys like AZB,Golo,Tony C,and others who are as subtle as a nuclear warhead!! Both are FUN aren't they!!!

Isn't it "Miller Time" in Sosua yet????????????????? CC