The Real Haiti.

[JenniferDiaz]

Caught up in history.

We tend to get caught up in this easy fix mentality when it comes to problems of other countries. "Rome wasn't built in a day"

In order to build Rome you need the Romans.

Look what other countries had done in less than 200 years.
Give Haitians 200 more and they do even worse.

You are so caught up in history, and always looking for excuses.

Talking too much, doing too little.. That's the problem!

 

[sancochojoe]

Gee Diaz,

are you a long time user mascarading as a new user and think you know so much about me???

ok smart one, what is your solution?
I'm very interested to know since its easier to point out the problems

hmmmmm

 

[Criss Colon]

I have a "Solution" for the Haitian PROBLEM!!

Thank you, but "final solutions" are not welcomed in this forum.
Pib

 

[sancochojoe]

hmmm. Hey Colon, being on such a small island, that would take you out to. Now you would not want that to happen

But that may be your honorable sacrifice for the better good. Right?

 

[Chirimoya]

Excuse me, but this is the debates forum.

Chiri

 

[sancochojoe]

Again, Haiti needs time, but also needs help. The same countries that showed interest in the country in the past should continue to show interest in its rebuild. Thats includes France, Spain and the US. If this island was good enough to settle on, fight for and influence the political climate then they need to continue to influence in its rebuild. I think it is best for the region.

Maybe the US should allow Haiti to become the 51 st state in these United States. I bet you money Bush would turn the whole country around and I can't stand Bush but with a country like Haiti, Bush and his Hawks would turn the country around for the better in the short run.

Obviously it cannot stand up on its own, so why not assume it as another state.

 

[JenniferDiaz]

It is in the mind.

Gee Diaz,

are you a long time user mascarading as a new user

Why would I do that?

Also, Haiti as many other things, is not only a country but also, a state of mind. If you think like a Haitian, I would respond to you like a would respond to a Haitian.

And that's what I saw in your littler "educational" history.

 

[Pib]

WTF?

Why would the US do that? If we are going to protest because they "have become the police of the world" then we should equally dislike that they become the "welfare bureau" of the world. Your proposal is so wrong in every aspect that I don't know where to begin.

Have you been reading "A Modest Proposal" perchance?

 

[sancochojoe]

Well when the average salary is $400 a year and pretty much everyone is poor. What state of mind would you expect anyone. Not just Haiti.

I have to sit and think If I was born filthy poor, what possible state of mind would I be if everyone around me is just as poor.
Not much stimulation there.

So Outside help is needed. That is the only way. It is impossible to do it alone. Remember they had ther FIRST Democratic election in the mid 1990's. The people again are only the result.

I could be more quick to say DR is at fault for some of their failures simply because they had several decades of some form of a Democratic process in electing who controls their country.

but with a mindset of nothing but poverty in Haiti, could they even pick a leader who would control them on emotions alone without having any form of strong platform. It is easy to sway the mindset of a deprived group of people with emotions and false promises.

But there is still some parallel between the two countries. i.e. DR and Haiti.

 

[Chirimoya]

Like all countries living in poverty and conflict there are multiple reasons for Haiti's plight. Some historical, some structural (like unfair trade rules), and much of it down to bad government, repression and corruption. These are the main reasons a large percentage of the people are uneducated, dispossessed, helpless and powerless. What Haiti and other countries need from the rest of the world as well as from its own people - and believe me there are plenty of capable people with vision there - are solutions and support, not fatalistic condemnation.

Having said that, I don't think it is worth debating with someone who appears to have materialised on this forum to espouse a clear anti-Haitian agenda, spouting the belief that Haiti is in the state it is as a result of some innate quality of its people. Even though this is the Debate forum - I have to say this: this uninformed and racist BS should not even be dignified with a counter argument.

Chiri

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Here we go again!

I could be more quick to say DR is at fault for some of their failures simply because they had several decades of some form of a Democratic process in electing who controls their country.

This is very typical in the Haitian way of thinking: always looking to blame someone else for their own faults.

 

[sancochojoe]

Re: WTF?

Why would the US do that? If we are going to protest because they "have become the police of the world" then we should equally dislike that they become the "welfare bureau" of the world. Your proposal is so wrong in every aspect that I don't know where to begin.

Have you been reading "A Modest Proposal" perchance?

Pib,

it is simply a Theory nothing more. Sometimes you have to do the unthinkable to get things done. US has invested so much time in the country, and have influenced and selected who runs the country. Why not take the next step. US has seemingly become a emperialistic type country. Who would stop them. FRANCE? I think not.

I know i'm going against my philosophy.

Annexing a country is not a form of welfare. What we are doing now you can call a form of welfare and with little effect. Maybe the idea would take away interest from DR. Is that the problem.
We have the skills and technology. "We can build the worlds first bionic man" woops got a little carried away with the 1970s.


Jennifer

How can you twist what I said around like that

"his is very typical in the Haitian way of thinking: always looking to blame someone else for their own faults."

You don't think the political environment dictates the state of a country, need I say IRAQ? Do you vote? You must not. Come on Jen.

Chirimoya

I agree, I think thats where it is going unfortunately.

God, the helpless are always the easy victim and the brunt of the attacks.

 

[JenniferDiaz]

We must say it.

I don't think it is worth debating with someone who appears to have materialised on this forum to espouse a clear anti-Haitian agenda, spouting the belief that Haiti is in the state it is as a result of some innate quality of its people. Even though this is the Debate forum - I have to say this: this uninformed and racist BS should not even be dignified with a counter argument.

Dear Chiri,

I think it is very important to debate Haiti's problems, specially for Dominicans. Opinions come and go, one may not like the tone in which they are express but that is part of the process and they are all necessary.

We are all equal, and all capable, what makes the difference is the way we think.

To say that "racist BS" is the reason for the debates is contra productive. It seems like a way of silencing opions, by labeling it as racism when one points out the problems produced by the Haitian way of thinking.

We must talk about it and debate it. It is a growing problem and D.R. is the most affected by it.

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Let's go to the souce.

You don't think the political environment dictates the state of a country

Dear Sancochojoe,

Political environments are created by people, and by the way they think.

 

[Squat]

Interesting thread, I am glad to see that valuable DR1ers understand that Haiti?s situation is part of the DR?s destiny... If things get worst in Haiti, it?s dangerous for DR...
Anyway, the UN, with blue helmets, will have to intervene soon, because, as bad as Aristide may be, he is the only person around, nobody in the opposition is charismatic enough to stand him... Andy Apaid looks intelligent, but he?s almost white, and he has a US passport...

Aristide?s Lavalas party is like the PRD here... They are powerfull, and masters of fraud...

 

[Chirimoya]

Re: We must say it.

We are all equal, and all capable, what makes the difference is the way we think.

Dear Jennifer,

Thank you for your polite response. I take back the "racist BS" statement and give you the benefit of the doubt. Especially if you are willing to apply the above statement to our Haitian neighbours.

My opinion is that there is no such thing as a "Haitian way of thinking" no more than there is an "Albanian way of thinking" or a "Zimbabwean way of thinking" and all other countries in-between.

There are differences in ways of thinking within countries, the place where fate determined you were born does not define your mindset to such an extent.

What makes you so knowledgeable about the Haitian so-called way of thinking? Your Haitian maid? A construction worker you once spoke to?

I base my assessment of Haitians on direct knowledge of the country, a considerable amount of background reading and the many friends I have both in Haiti and in the DR, who are Haitian, or of Haitian origin. Many of them display a level of education, culture and manners that would leave most people, not just Dominicans, in the shade.

Those who live or have lived in the DR speak fluent Spanish, as well as English. How many Dominicans speak French, let alone Creole?

Even though the Haitians I know were the target of prejudice in the DR, they still love and respect the country that is a political and economic haven for so many of their compatriots. Not unlike Dominicans and the US.

They work tirelessly for the improvement of their country, which is to say the least a thankless task. But their vision and commitment is indisputable.

On the other end of the spectrum, I know a poor Haitian family who have lived in the DR for about 20 years. They are not educated in the academic sense but they possess dignity and manners that no finishing school in Switzerland could bestow. Their capacity for hard work is impressive, and not least their honesty and loyalty.

Don't get me wrong, as a "Dominicana-por-adopcion" I also worry about the consequences for the DR of a worsening of the situation in Haiti. I repeat, what both countries need to avert this are constructive solutions, not negative judgements about some so-called innate Haitian weakness.

The only thing the DR has to lose if the situation in Haiti improves is its unlimited source of dirt-cheap labour!

Chiri

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Contradictions!!

Dear Chirimoya.

You just said many things and they are full of contradictions.

And that's is part of the problem in the Haitian way to thinking,
they do not have a real sence of nation. That's why you see so much contraste in their different social groups.

 

[Chirimoya]

On the contrary. They have an extremely strong sense of nation, as well as pride in their roots and identity. The contrasts in the social groups are equivalent to many of the world's poorest countries. It has little to do with mindset, unless you wish to say that all countries where there is severe inequality, this one included, are in that situation solely due to some supposed innate, incurable weakness of its people.

I really wonder what you are basing these incredible judgements on, and whether you are going to offer a solution instead of repeating this limp thesis in every post. If I see this happening I will rejoin the debate.

Chiri

 

[JenniferDiaz]

It is difficult to see.

They have an extremely strong sense of nation, as well as pride in their roots and identity.

Dear Chiri,

It is difficult to see, but it is true. The sense of nation, comes from the building of the nation, not from the building of personal pride.

Just look at Haiti, no social services. Just a little group well educated that have a personal Haiti, not a social Haiti.

They all want to be Haiti. And that's why the have so much problems.

 

[sancochojoe]

I really wonder what you are basing these incredible judgements on, and whether you are going to offer a solution instead of repeating this limp thesis in every post. If I see this happening I will rejoin the debate.

Chiri

The solutions to the problems is never the basis of post such as these. As you have noticed, there tends to be more pride in pointing out the problems. I think it makes people feel good that they are removed from the problem. Who knows.