The Real Haiti.

[JenniferDiaz]

We are not just point out problems.

As you have noticed, there tends to be more pride in pointing out the problems.

We first have to understand the problems, and what generates those problems. If you read carefully, we had passed the stage of pointing out the problems, now we are at trying to see what is generating those problems.

 

[sancochojoe]

Re: We are not just point out problems.

We first have to understand the problems, and what generates those problems. If you read carefully, we had passed the stage of pointing out the problems, now we are at trying to see what is generating those problems.

I agree with you Jen, but your understanding of why seems to rest solely on the poor masses. When an attempt of a timeland of the evolution of the country was presented. You slammed that and said, "blaming others". Nobody was blaming others. But to solve the problem, you have to analyze historical events that led up to the problems at hand. You would have to agree with that.

Given the historical events, time is really the key to solving part of the problem. They have to get a since of true Democracy for one which is only only six years old. Please show me a country who can turn around in 6 years when previously it was ran by Dictators, "Other country" appointed leaders and the like. Then the people have to feel comfortable and safe to even go to the ballot boxes and make the right choice who runs the country. DR hasn't seem to do that either. Before you can convince a people to appreciate and preserver the natural resources in the country, they first need to satisfy there needs, which is a roof over their head, food and safety. Once that is met, there may be attempts to show concern about their surroundings. If you have taken Psycology 101, you would understand things such as human needs.

My point is it is a cycle. And again, time is needed.

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Haiti is not a real nation.

Dear Sancochojoe,

All those problems that you just mentioned are only products of the way they think: No real sense of nation = no social agenda.

When countries have this problem at the level that Haiti has it,
you will have: poverty, deforestation, social unrest, etc..

To really solve things, you have to go to the source of things.

That is not easy, because you will have to face your ego, instead of always blaming France, the USA, or D.R. for your problems.

 

[Farmer]

Thanks Jennifer

Thank you for starting what most contributors to this debate have called and interesting thread. Don't be intimidated by those who would shoot first and apologize later. Its a debate, not their lecture forum.

The problems in Haiti are real and do and will impact the DR. The leadership of the DR should be at the front of efforts to secure more investment and multi-national humanitarian aid for Haiti. Every dollar spent there will indirectly take pressure off of the DR. The Clinton Administration took a baby step in the 90's but never followed up. The current administration won't do much because there are no natural resources to exploit and the only WMD that Haiti possesses is the AIDS crisis, and thats a weapon they have pointed at themselves.

In the early 70's I traveled through Haiti and learned the definition of the word ignorant. Before that, I would probably have told you that it was synonomous with stupid. I travelled with a young Haitian boy whose picture shows his tattered t-shirt with the label facing forward (yes, that makes it both backwards and inside-out).However, when I realized that the young man who had "adopted" me could speak English, Spanish, French and Creole, I realized his linguistic superiority. With my two university degrees, I wasn't stupid, I was ignorant. Ignorance comes from lack of opportunity only.

Haitian aren't stupid to whats going on in their country, but they are ignorant of many of the solutions. They are going to need a whole lot of external help to provide opportunity. And proper husbandry of the soil and environment is a good place to start.

Farmer

 

[sancochojoe]

Re: Haiti is not a real nation.

Dear Sancochojoe,

All those problems that you just mentioned are only products of the way they think: No real sense of nation = no social agenda.

When countries have this problem at the level that Haiti has it,
you will have: poverty, deforestation, social unrest, etc..

To really solve things, you have to go to the source of things.

That is not easy, because you will have to face your ego, instead of always blaming France, the USA, or D.R. for your problems.

Jen, I guess you will never get it. For some reason you are so caught up the the word "Blame". Yet you are using the blame game just the same by saying its the Haitians fault and them alone.

Currently they are simply losing in the world of economics which is the defining factor of a succesful and non successful country.

Cuba Budget 15.6 billion export 1.8 billion
Puerto Rico Budget 9.6 billion export 38 billion
DR budget 3.2 billion export 5.5 Billion
Jamaica Budget 2.5 billion export 1.6 billion
Haiti budget 361 Million export $326.6 million

Basically they need some more or better business partners.
Haiti needs to deversify, because with the animosity from Americans and Dominicans it just isn't good business since.

Jamaica appears to do well in diversifying their business with other countries.

As you see Puerto Rico is almost completely married to the states with a 38 billion dollar export. I figured my theory of Haiti being annexed or considered just an American Territory, business opportunity would be a whole lot better

Cuba takes the lickins but keeps on tickin'

With DR, its all about who is running the country when it comes to how the money is handled in the country. Simple as that. As you can see, DR absolutly cannot piss off the States. The US calls the shots in this country or DR will absolutely become another Haiti

Top business partners are
Haiti
US 60%, EU 10.5%, Dominican Republic 3.7% (2000)


Dominican Republic
US 87.3%, Netherlands 1.1%, Canada 0.7%, France 0.7% (2000 est.)

Puerto Rico
US 60% (2000)

Jamaica
US 35.7%, EU (excluding UK) 15.9%, UK 13%, Canada 10.5% (1999)

Cuba
Spain 12.7%, France 6.5%, Canada 5.7%, China 5.3%, Italy 5.0% (2001)

 

[Chirimoya]

Farmer, you enter the fray! Good to see a poster with something constructive to say, clearly based on real-life experience of the topic.

Spare your praise and encouragement for the person who started the thread, though. Her agenda was clear from the start, and all who joined in initially attempted to override this negativity with more constructive perspectives. She kept on coming back with the same statement that "the Haitian way of thinking" is to blame, and offered not a single insight or solution.

That, my friends, is not debate.

Sancocho makes some very valid points about fledgling democracies. Having just emerged from a lengthy dictatorship and a series of military leaders, the Haitian people were taken in - and later betrayed by - Aristide. Who could blame them? At the time he appeared a reasonably credible prospect, not just to his beleaguered compatriots but to many non-Haitians across the globe. Most Haitians wised up to his decline into corruption and incompetence soon enough, and alerted the rest of the world to this predicament. Let us hope that they are more successful than their neighbours to the east, who have put up with a series of corrupt, clientilistic and often authoritarian governments since they got rid of their dictator - over 40 years ago!

The uncertainty, as has been said before, is who steps in if Aristide is ousted. Haiti, like all countries in crisis needs a combination of strong leadership and firm, long-term international support. In my previous work I sat in on more than one high-level discussion on what the international community should do in Haiti. Throwing money at the problem was never enough. There are some situations where there are so few options that international intervention (a la former Yugoslavia), in the first phase at least, has to be an consideration once again.

Chiri

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Lost in data.

Dear Sancochojoe,

You are lost in data. Plus, the "Blame" as you put it, is been used by them everyday. What do you think is their president is doing when asking France to play back their money, and saying "that is the reason why Haitians live in porverty"?

They are always playing the victims, and you are helping them.

It is like all nations should feel guilty for Haiti's incompetence.

Who is playing the "Blame" game?

 

[sancochojoe]

Again Jen like Chirimoya said no solution coming from you.

Data is sometimes needed as the basis of ones opinion. We can't just go by JenDiaz's opinion alone. Now can we.

Please provide some info of everyday blame made my Haitians as you so put it. Any links, References, news clippings.

And who is they. Haitians in general, political leaders????

Also what country is your guage of how Haiti should be. What is this benchmark of the perfect society that has adjusted well after years of Dicatorship. Give me a benchmark I can work with in order to accept your argument. There is not much to work with if your continual response is "blame this and blame that".

 

[JenniferDiaz]

lol, just read the news.

 

[sancochojoe]

I figured that would be your response.

Simple Fluff. Full of air. No Debate like Chirimoya said.

Chirimoya

you were right

 

[Chirimoya]

Joe, I am always right.

But I wish there was more that we could do about this issue, for the sake of Haiti, the DR and all their inhabitants. Haiti is what is known as a "basket case" and it will take greater minds than ours to come up with a solution.

I have seen some very good initiatives on a small-scale level in Port-au-Prince and in the rural areas that provide a livelihood and some hope for a limited number of people, but it's the big picture that needs to be tackled and it seems that there is no easy answer.

Chiri

 

[ltsnyder]

That article refered to in the link mentioned adding spice to clay

Or dirt made to look like flat bread and it being sold on the street, has anyone actually witnessed this (how long has that been going on?)? I find it hard to believe things like this would be wide spread. Is this something new? I know I'm dwelling on this one point but I don't understand it, for all I know there might be some health benifits too this. Or maybe just a symptom of destitute poverty (the obvious answer).

-Lee

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Read the News

I figured that would be your response.

Dear Sancochojoe,

Reading the news is the right answer. And you figured that would be my answer because you formulated it to be that.

I can not provide you with Haiti's news everyday so you will change your view. I can only provide you with a different viewing angle for your consideration. You have to do your homework on this matter. Read the news and try to look at the whole picture.

Before Haiti's problems can be solved, a social conscience have to be formed.

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Think about it.

Plus dear Sanco,

What do you want me to say? ..
That the international community have to come to their aid?
Or that the Dominican goverment have to solve their social problem?
please..

That will make you feel better? then you will say: we are all in the same page. NO MY DEAR..

There are many international organizations in Haiti doing that. And it is a big business.

Let talk about the root of the problem no its branches. It branches are: poverty, illiteracy, deforestation, unrest, etc..

What I and others see as the root of the problem is that: Haiti is not a real nation, in the sense of not having a social conscience, which is to genarate a social agenda.

And that sounds imposible, but that's how me and others see it. AND IT IS IN THEIR HISTORY, think about it.

This is the only country in the Americas, and may be in the world, that was created by a revolt of slaves.
- The slaves wanted to be free ( whatever freedom was or is for them )
- The reason for their independence was NOT to create a nation,
they had to create a nation as a result of their revolution. But they just wanted freedom from slavery.

THE NOTION OF NATION, LIMITS THE NOTION OF INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM.

It is the classical confict between the individual and the society.

Every other country that fought a revolutionary war against colonialism, did it to form a nation.
In Haiti they did it for their sense of individual freedom, in this case: freedom from slavery.

This creates a big problem, a big disbalance. This means that Haiti will always find itself between dictatorships and revolutions,
because it does not have a sense of nation to balance those two extremes.

Look at the results of this. It is their passed and present history.

It is like a computer model.

 

[mountainfrog]

One island - one rule?

Dear Jennifer,
you have come up with a lot of criticism about Haiti.
But we have to face reality: Haiti exists and its problems are of concern to its neighbours and aid agencies alike.
What do you suggest?
- Forget about that country?
- Enslave them (again)?
- Force them into a union with the DR because they (in your view) were not able to build a nation?
- Send our wise leader Hipolito over there
to rectify their problems (and our problem with him)?
Froggy

 

[JenniferDiaz]

They need real leadership, something new have to be created.

 

[sancochojoe]

Do you think the elections have to be controlled by a third party country to insure there is not corruption? Well we've (US) done that and for some reason even we can't select the right leaders. We end up always choosing future dictators and greedy elitest.

So how do you convince a bunch of people, who are only focused on their primary human necessities, decide who should run the country. History shows that the poorer the country the more likely they will have a Dictator running the country.

So what do you do.

Actually Jen, I enjoyed you last post.

 

[Vainqueur_Noir]

Hmmm

I agree that the D.R. or no other country can be blamed for Haiti's state of evident delapidation. But Dominicans hating them isn't making things better. Most Dominicans hate blacks in general(or anyone who will darken the family)but they have a personal hatred of Haitians. I've read about the inhumane treatment they receive while in the D.R. A black Haitian mans home was broken into by two whiter looking Dominicans. He called the police hoping they would arrest the criminals but they arrested him instead. Latinos in general shamelessly and mercilessly hurl barbaric forms of racism at people of a darker hue. There's no denying it. The country speaks for itself. Anyone who is light skinned gets the royal treatment, and if you are dark you are expected to stay in your assumed lower class place.

 

[bob saunders]

overblown

This has not been my experience in the DR. I'm not saying there is no colour discrimination in the DR or that Dominicans are not very colour conscious, but my wife's family is every shade from milk white to midnight black and all are treated the same. There are also many Haitians living in Jarabacoa and although you would have to be one to experience their experience it doesn't seem like they get treated any different than anyone else. I'm sure there are Dominican Redneaks,, just as there are ignorant bigoted people in every country.

 

[sancochojoe]

Vainqueur_Noir I respectfully disagree. The only place so far in my whole life that I've heard that Domincans hate "Blacks" is from people on Dr1 and in general from whites. I don't know what color you are but the people making this claim seems to be consistent. For the most part you are saying many Dominiicans hate themselves or someone in their family who have that pigment. I think people hate the restrictions or limitations they are allowed access to based on the color. And people who are not of dark complexion use that to their advantage and marginalize others because of that. That is the extent I would go.

Sometimes I think if this is a marketing ploy just to get people of fair complexion to come and invest time on the island. Its really suspect.

If Dominicans kept the attitude you state, then the country as a whole goes against who they are, the music, culture, food etc that is so tied into that color you state they hate.

Like Spock says. its totally illogical
Like I say: It just does not make logical since.