The Haitian Occupation of the Dominican Republic

[Gurabo444]

They were indeed at war with the French who controlled the eastern part who signed a treaty with the Cibaenos thus it was fighting for their freedom. How can one not connect the suffering of the Haitian people from the real savages who were the French/Spanish? We have to look at this event within the context of how the colonizers treated these slaves. Close your eyes and see the scenes of the African Slaves who face horrific accounts of this nature for centuries. I found it ironic how one can quickly utter savagery towards Haitians, while not doing the same towards the French and Spanish. Also it was not declared Dominican Republic during 1805 rather a possesion of the French who took over from the Spanish. As Americans, I think one would refrain to call these people savagery during that time frame as they were fighting for the dire life not to succumb to the savagery ways of the French and Spanish.

Look at what the savages did to the Cacos and Charlemagne Peralte who was Haitian-Dominican. I am reading nothing but bigotry by posters whose ancestors have more innocent blood on there hands than Haitians and Dominicans. Again, the Polish and Germans never suffered these accounts. Why?, well they didn't sign a treaty with the enemy to sell Haitians back into slavery. These people were casualty of war. Can we stop using condescending words to describe these heros? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

First, some said those accounts are "cuentos de mi abuelita" now that their validity is proven, the Santiagueros deserved what they got because they were slave traders. Ok, with so many Haitian sources about this event there has to be at least one mention of Santiagueros going all the way to the border to capture people, and then to sell them in the capital. I would love to see some evidence that this ever happened, until then your accusations of Cibaenos plotting with the french to capture people are just are just a desperate attempt to find fount in innocent civilians who were slaughter by your people. Just one single evidence about Cibaenos actually crossing the border to capture people.

Now here let me show you the relationship between Santiagueros and French at the time.

"Una carta del obispo Mauviel desde Santo Domingo al general Clerveaux inst?ndole a ir a Santo Domingo, pasando por Santiago, inspir? a los naturales sospechas de una traici?n a que no consideraban ajeno al general Devaux y el 15 de octubre se combinaron los oficiales para resolver la situaci?n prendi?ndolo para remitirlo a Ferrand.

El 16 a las dos de la ma?ana se reunieron los juramentados, present?ndose una parte en la casa de Gobierno, otra en el cuartel, otra en el Vivac y otra en el dep?sito de las municiones, a la entrada de la ciudad. Un tiro de pistola era la se?al. Todos llegaron a tiempo. Ljos 80 ? 100 soldados de l?nea acuartelados en una de las casas de la plaza fueron sorprendidos durmiendo y se entregaron, pero acobardado el capit?n abandon? la compa??a lo que observado por los prisioneros aprovecharon la ocasi?n para reaccionarse y salir a la plaza en orden de combate creyendo que los naturales estaban combinados con los negros. De aqu? que un golpe que pudo ser moment?neo terminara con sangre. Naturales y franceses en una noche oscura, metieron mano a las armas despedaz?ndose como leones y de este choque quedaron en el sitio 27, de ?stos un hijo de Puerto Plata, el capit?n don Melchor Rodr?guez asalt? el parque y auxili? a los que segu?an bati?ndose. Los franceses se dispersaron despu?s de hacer una resistencia vigorosa. Deveaux resisti? con un guardia pero tuvo que ceder. Al rayar la aurora enarbolaron el pabell?n espa?ol con salvas y alegr?a. El comandante Devaux y sus oficiales quedaron arrestados en supropia casa con el decoro debido a sus empleos. La tropa francesa qued? reducida a su cuartel respetada, menos los heridos que tomaron a pi? el camino de la capital para presentarse al general Ferrand a quien informaron exageradamente."

"A letter from Bishop Mauviel from Santo Domingo to Clerveaux urging him to go back to Santo Domingo, passing by Santiago, this inspired suspicions of treason among the natives which they would expect from the general Devaux and on October 15 officers combined.

on the 16 at two of dawn they all met, showing up a part in the government house, another in the barracks, another in the Vivac and another another in the ammunition depot at the entrance of the city. A pistol shot was the signal. Everyone arrived on time. Everyone arrived on time. the 80 or 100 line soldiers quartered in one of the houses in the town square were caught sleeping and surrendered, but cowardly the captain left the company the prisoners seeing this took the opportunity to react and march outside the city in combat order believing that the natives were combined with the blacks (Haitians). Hence, a blow that could have been quick had a bloody conclusion. Natives and French on a dark night, took up arms tearing each other apart like lions and from this clash only 27 were left in the place, out of these a son of Puerto Plata, The captain don Melchor Rodr?guez arrived in the park and gave his help to those still fighting. The french became disperse after putting up a vigorous resistance. Deveaux fought with a guard but had to give in. At the break of dawn the Spanish flag peaked with celebration and joy. The commander Devaux and his officers were arrested in their home . The French troops were reduced to its barracks, except for the wounded who took the road to the capital to present to General Ferrand an exaggerated report."

Archivo OrbeQuince: Historia de mi salida de la isla de Santo Domingo el 28 de Abril de 1805 | Por Gaspar de Arredondo y Pichardo

After this the french retreated the few troops they still had in the Cibao, and left the people to their own fate. All this happened a year before the massacres took place, you guys are crazy to believe an unprotected people would try to go to Haiti and abduct people.

 

[mountainannie]

French Capitulation in Saint-Domingue (1803) - TLP

letter of acceptance of the French surrender of the French on the Western side signed by Dessalines

 

[mountainannie]

The people of the Cibeo had most likely never seen the Haitians fight, the French had. Perhaps indeed they had not heard of how the haitians had killed almost all of the whites already on the other side, otherwise, perhaps they would not have been so calmly at church.

Perhaps the French thought it would be a simple enough thing to convince them to become slave traders. They were poor, evidently. Simple cattle ranchers. Not many were well educated.

Perhaps they did not even know the form of slavery that the French practiced.

I do not know if Dessalines would have invaded then.. if Ferrand had not posted that letter? Would they have allowed the French to simply live on this side in control, with slavery reinstated? Allow them to build up their forces?

What would any military commander do in their position? Confine themselves in the western one third of the island or, while the army was still in formation, or, press on to see if they could take out the last of the remaining French?

They pressed on.

they did what damage they could but they could not root out the French.

 

[Quisqueya]

First, some said those accounts are "cuentos de mi abuelita" now that their validity is proven,duct people.

They still aren't validated. That one source of yours isn't enough in my opinion to confirm how this event took place. We know something happened which was the effect of signing treaty with the french to make the eastern part a place where blacks were captured and sold to other places. These were Spanish "Cibaenos" were casualty of war. I am not condoning this account in our history but these are the repercussions of the savagery behaviours of the Spanish/French. We were not there and one can say for sure these ex=slaves and mulattoes didn't want to go back to the brutal ways of these savages (French/Spanish). I can close my eyes in feel the whips and torment my ancestors endured. Looking at my family pictures and wonder why so many hues from dark to almost white. Most like a product of rape from these brutal savages.

Can anyone find more personal accounts and other sources? Again 1805 Dominicans where not even a nationality yet thus one can argue these were Spanish casualties not Dominicans. Time of war bad things happen just this time it wasn't the Africans that were at the end of the stick. Please provide more references as all I can find are Dominican accounts. I am sure the descedants of the Spanish and French would have written memoirs after all they were the literate ones as oppose to the majority of the criollos.

 

[mountainannie]

Guarbo or NS.. K mel do you have any information, any sources that talk about any consultations between the settlers in Azua and the Cibao and the French?

 

[delite]

AE,

I suggest you take a look at Chip carefully. Whenever he posts, there's always an effect contrary to a civil discussion. Even Gurabo444 is proffering research which is enriching the debate about the era. This is healthy...you bring your papers, and I'll bring mine.

Chip on the other hand, is bent on taking this lively thread downhill with his constant accusatory, drivel filled posts. I've noticed him recently with the definition of a "mulatto" and now this other outbreak.

I am powerless here since I am not a moderator. Even if I were, my goal is t to sanction or reprimand, but simply to draw attention. Sure there are strong opinions, but overall the main contributors acknowledge or reject each other in a civil manner. However, this gentleman Chip is simply here to derail and to cause conflicts.

This thread, being historical in nature, is a medium for sharing, debating, learning and teaching.

I've learned so much from NS, MA, K-Mel, Quisqueya and Gurabo444. I've learned absolutely nothing from Chip!

 

[Gurabo444]

The people of the Cibeo had most likely never seen the Haitians fight, the French had. Perhaps indeed they had not heard of how the haitians had killed almost all of the whites already on the other side, otherwise, perhaps they would not have been so calmly at church.

Perhaps the French thought it would be a simple enough thing to convince them to become slave traders. They were poor, evidently. Simple cattle ranchers. Not many were well educated.

No they knew this very well, they knew what Haitians were capable of and they had been constantly bullied by Dessanes since 1803, asking for outrages sums of money, which they tried to pay him by giving away most of their valuables, they knew very well not to awake the wrath of such monster, thus going into Haitians terretory to kidnap people is just unreasonable, if you read Gaspar, these people were in constant fear of the Haitians ever since the 1801 invasion. It wuld be great if you would stop assuming things and actually look for concrete evidence that Cibaenos were hunting Haitians in Haitian territory as some of you here want to claim.

Last they were not calmly in church, most people in church were there asking god to safe them from what was to fall upon them, what do you think an unarmed religious people would do in such situation? go to church, pray and expect some sort of miracle. That's exactly what many Santiagueros did, some of course were smarter and tried to scape into the hills.

"Los negros entraron a la ciudad como una furia del averno, degollando sable en mano, atropellando cuanto encontraban, y haciendo correr por todas partes la sangre. Fig?rese cu?l ser?a la consternaci?n, el terror y el espanto, en que de momento call? aquel vecindario, tan descuidado, a vista de unos hechos semejantes, cuando casi todos estaban reunidos en la iglesia mayor, con su pastor implorando el auxilio divino, mientras se representaba en el altar el sacrificio de nuestra Redenci?n"

"The blacks entered the city like fury from hell, slitting throats with sword in hand violating everyone the found and making the blood run everywhere. Imagine the consternation, terror and horror, what moment did such town fell, so abandoned, at the view of such events, when almost all where gathered at the main church, with their pastor imploring divine aid, while represented on the altar the sacrifice of our redemption."

Archivo OrbeQuince: Historia de mi salida de la isla de Santo Domingo el 28 de Abril de 1805 | Por Gaspar de Arredondo y Pichardo

 

[Quisqueya]

Gurabo,

You're only speculating the sentiments of these Cibaenos(Spanish settlers). Where is your proof that they were bullied. For some afraid people, why did they sign a treaty with the French? You have one source which is arising all types of emotions which is understandable but let's try to figure out why with references. We are doing pretty good and I have learnt a lot thus far sauf a Gringo instigating as if he's Dominican. NS, please put into your opinions. I would like to here from my compatriots Tizozo, Roody etc. The history of this island is very complicated and we must make sure these atrocities doesn't ever happen again.

 

[bronzeallspice]

No one need not fear that these atrocities will ever happen again, for I can assure you
that Dominicans today will make sure of that. This is the reason why Haiti and the DR
will never see eye to eye, too much bitterness and hatred from BOTH sides. The only
thing they do is share an island that's about it. Both countries need to look out for
their own welfare and maintain some civil semblance but that's about all that can be
gained from this revision of history, which is stirring up very unpleasant memories.

 

[Gurabo444]

They still aren't validated.

Well how so? to me this source is more accurate than any other I've read about these accounts, it's an eyewitness account.

That one source of yours isn't enough in my opinion to confirm how this event took place.

Well Naked-Snake I think posted the accounts of Antonio del Monte, but the thing is you're not going to find another detailed account like this one, the others who have written about these event were not there when it took place, Gaspar de Arredonde was there. In the link provided by me if you care to read it actually states how this lost document was discovered, and how it was treasured by the descendents of the Gaspar de Arredondo in Cuba who didn't want to give it away. besides so much oral history about these event could have not jsut come out of nowhere, Haitian throwing kids in the air and catching them with their bayonets, and the massacres in the church, these stories just don't come out nowhere.

We know something happened which was the effect of signing treaty with the french to make the eastern part a place where blacks were captured and sold to other places. These were Spanish "Cibaenos" were casualty of war. I am not condoning this account in our history but these are the repercussions of the savagery behaviours of the Spanish/French. We were not there and one can say for sure these ex=slaves and mulattoes didn't want to go back to the brutal ways of these savages (French/Spanish). I can close my eyes in feel the whips and torment my ancestors endured. Looking at my family pictures and wonder why so many hues from dark to almost white. Most like a product of rape from these brutal savages.

Yes the Ciabenos had to pay for the behavoir of the French, they had nothing to do with how your ancestors were treated yet they pay with their life's, heck most were to poor to even own slaves. I can also close my eyes and imagine the terros, the fear, the horric things my ancestors had to go through at the hands of Haitian soldiers, the sad part is, that even if you guys don't want to admiited, they never did any harm to Haitians, most were minding their business in the CIBAO, they never mounted an invasion to Haiti, there's no record of the slaving Haitians, yet their only fault was to be in the middle of to forces battling for the control of the island.

Can anyone find more personal accounts and other sources? Again 1805 Dominicans where not even a nationality yet thus one can argue these were Spanish casualties not Dominicans. Time of war bad things happen just this time it wasn't the Africans that were at the end of the stick. Please provide more references as all I can find are Dominican accounts. I am sure the descedants of the Spanish and French would have written memoirs after all they were the literate ones as oppose to the majority of the criollos.

I've heard this from so many people, so just because in that period Dominicans were not a nationality, we should just forget about it, and say nah those were just Spaniards who were slaughter. How about you forget about what Haitians went through under the french before the 1800's because after all Haitians were not even a nationality prior to the 1800's, you see things like nationality are just in paper, in 1805 there was already a Dominican identity, heck there was people calling themselves Cibaenos in the early 1700's, gaspar himself always refers to everyone as "natives" instead of Spanish. Unlike Haitians most Dominicans, most of those victims had been in the island for centuries, calling the Spanish when all they knew was this land, is in my opinion unfair and ridiculous. You guys also like to forget that it wasn't just white criollos the ones killed in this massacre, many many people of color and blacks were also killed, just read a few pages back, how some black Dominicans were taken back to Haitia as prisoners, and how Henri had a bunch of color people against the edge of the river along with everyone else.

 

[Gurabo444]

Gurabo,

You're only speculating the sentiments of these Cibaenos(Spanish settlers). Where is your proof that they were bullied. For some afraid people, why did they sign a treaty with the French? You have one source which is arising all types of emotions which is understandable but let's try to figure out why with references. We are doing pretty good and I have learnt a lot thus far sauf a Gringo instigating as if he's Dominican. NS, please put into your opinions. I would like to here from my compatriots Tizozo, Roody etc. The history of this island is very complicated and we must make sure these atrocities doesn't ever happen again.

I've posted references about this before, about how Dessalines requested a large sum of money to be paid by Santiago, or else they would be invaded, and how they send cattle jewelry etc.. to him because they didn't have so much money, yet he rejected this, even though he did keep all the cattle and jewelry send to him. I've posted the accounts of how the natives were treated during the Haitians occupation of the city in 1801. I'm not speculating anything, all I've stated here is base on what I've read, and all throughout Gaspar's memoirs the fear of the general population towards the Haitians is constantly reminded. You're always telling me to get more souces, yet for the sopose treaty with the French there's only one source, no Dominican ever mentions this treaty, nor Gaspar in his memoirs, and he was part of the Santiago Government.

Later I'll post references, of the sum of money asked by Dessalines and the other events, the first one was even noted in another document posted by MA.

Again for the last time why not post evidence that Santiagueros were kidnapping people to sell them into slavery. Yes, I know that the Haitians went through hell during the French, but never in this thread, have I defended the French or even felt pity for what happen to the slave owners. But Dominicans did't have anything do with this, why can;t you gusy admit, that what happen to them was just wrong and horrific. I for one can admit that my people are not all benevolant, and I'm sure some of my ancestor probably committed some horrible acts.

 

[Chip]

They were indeed at war with the French who controlled the eastern part who signed a treaty with the Cibaenos thus it was fighting for their freedom.

Please provide a reference of this treaty.

How can one not connect the suffering of the Haitian people from the real savages who were the French/Spanish? We have to look at this event within the context of how the colonizers treated these slaves. Close your eyes and see the scenes of the African Slaves who face horrific accounts of this nature for centuries. I found it ironic how one can quickly utter savagery towards Haitians, while not doing the same towards the French and Spanish.

What the French did to the slaves was savagery. However, the Spanish were only savage with the original inhabitants in the island, and even then most of the deaths were due to disease which was not the Spanish fault. Furthermore, the Spanish had long since abandoned sever forms of slavery on the islands per the directive of the Catholic Church.

Still, this has nothing to do with the established fact of recorded history that Dessalines massacred thousands of innocent people in Cibao. I understand why a Haitian would find this troublesome. I also understand why Dominicans have problems trusting Haitians when persons like yourself want to change their history.

 

[Chip]

AE,

I suggest you take a look at Chip carefully. Whenever he posts, there's always an effect contrary to a civil discussion. Even Gurabo444 is proffering research which is enriching the debate about the era. This is healthy...you bring your papers, and I'll bring mine.

Chip on the other hand, is bent on taking this lively thread downhill with his constant accusatory, drivel filled posts. I've noticed him recently with the definition of a "mulatto" and now this other outbreak.

I am powerless here since I am not a moderator. Even if I were, my goal is t to sanction or reprimand, but simply to draw attention. Sure there are strong opinions, but overall the main contributors acknowledge or reject each other in a civil manner. However, this gentleman Chip is simply here to derail and to cause conflicts.

This thread, being historical in nature, is a medium for sharing, debating, learning and teaching.

I've learned so much from NS, MA, K-Mel, Quisqueya and Gurabo444. I've learned absolutely nothing from Chip!

With all due respect you are a newbee. I know MA, kmel and Quiskeya for years and am well aware of their propaganda, as are all the Dominicans.

For example, in spite of recorded history the aforementioned people are denying the atrocities committed against the innocent Santiagueros.

I would ask that you respect the history of the Dominican Republic from it's citizens eyes, and not foreigners who once invaded, occupied and massacred them.

 

[mountainannie]

Quiskeya, I do not think that you can make the assumption that the Spanish colonists were the same type of slave owners as the French. There is no evidence to support that whatsoever. If they had been, there would have been an uprising. So do not make the mistake of lumping the Spanish and the French together.

Do we know of the sort of class, race distinction here between mulattos and blacks as there was in Haiti. There were, most likely, no mulattos here who had univeristy educations in Spain, or wre large property owners, or perhaps, even owned slaves. I do not know this.. I am merely speculating.

And warning about the dangers of clumping the two colonys.. the French one, which was the jewel of the French colonies, and the Spanish one, which appeaars to have been a rather abadoned outpost in the Spanish Empire... into one colonial rule.

 

[Chip]

I think it is obvious that Haitians would not want to accept the atrocities committed by it's soldiers in 1805 because they are seen as heroes. This is a conflict that makes it impossible to accept the Dominican historical record.

In fact, the university built in Haiti by Dominican funds was named after the president who sent Dessalines to Santo Domingo, which is a big slap in the face to Dominicans. I expect the Haitian political leadership that perpetrated this offense against Dominicans also somehow expect the same Dominicans to believe their propaganda as well. You can't make this stuff up, that's for sure.

My advice to Haitians is to accept what their ancestors did and to apologize as a nation, and also rename the university. True reconciliation cannot be had until people recognize the wrongs that they have done.

 

[delite]

With all due respect you are a newbee. I know MA, kmel and Quiskeya for years and am well aware of their propaganda, as are all the Dominicans.

For example, in spite of recorded history the aforementioned people are denying the atrocities committed against the innocent Santiagueros.

I would ask that you respect the history of the Dominican Republic from it's citizens eyes, and not foreigners who once invaded, occupied and massacred them.

For the sanity of this thread, I am going to overlook you because I've already made my point to AE. I don't want to get into a tit for tat and contradict myself.

 

[Chip]

For the sanity of this thread, I am going to overlook you because I've already made my point to AE and I don't want to get into a tit for tat and contradict myself.

For the record AE agrees with me. And why not? History is history, my fren.

 

[delite]

For the record AE agrees with me. And why not? History is history, my fren.

Lets assume she is, this still doesn't excuse the fact that your goal isn't to edify but rather to denigrate the thread. Show some maturity.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Also it was not declared Dominican Republic during 1805 rather a possesion of the French who took over from the Spanish.

If we were to apply the same rationalization you use, then the "Haitians" fighting in the American Revolution weren't really Haitians, but French subjects. A nation/ethnic group doesn't need a state in order to exist, cuz' if you really think such, then go and tell the Palestinians, Kurds, Catalans and Basques that they aren't nations, and see how you fare after that. Or to put another example, the Finns were under Swede rule for centuries, yet that didn't stop them from seeing themselves as a different folk than the Swedes, or the Russians, for that matter.

 

[mountainannie]

Well how so? to me this source is more accurate than any other I've read about these accounts, it's an eyewitness account.


Well Naked-Snake I think posted the accounts of Antonio del Monte, but the thing is you're not going to find another detailed account like this one, the others who have written about these event were not there when it took place, Gaspar de Arredonde was there. In the link provided by me if you care to read it actually states how this lost document was discovered, and how it was treasured by the descendents of the Gaspar de Arredondo in Cuba who didn't want to give it away. besides so much oral history about these event could have not jsut come out of nowhere, Haitian throwing kids in the air and catching them with their bayonets, and the massacres in the church, these stories just don't come out nowhere.



Yes the Ciabenos had to pay for the behavoir of the French, they had nothing to do with how your ancestors were treated yet they pay with their life's, heck most were to poor to even own slaves. I can also close my eyes and imagine the terros, the fear, the horric things my ancestors had to go through at the hands of Haitian soldiers, the sad part is, that even if you guys don't want to admiited, they never did any harm to Haitians, most were minding their business in the CIBAO, they never mounted an invasion to Haiti, there's no record of the slaving Haitians, yet their only fault was to be in the middle of to forces battling for the control of the island.




I've heard this from so many people, so just because in that period Dominicans were not a nationality, we should just forget about it, and say nah those were just Spaniards who were slaughter. How about you forget about what Haitians went through under the french before the 1800's because after all Haitians were not even a nationality prior to the 1800's, you see things like nationality are just in paper, in 1805 there was already a Dominican identity, heck there was people calling themselves Cibaenos in the early 1700's, gaspar himself always refers to everyone as "natives" instead of Spanish. Unlike Haitians most Dominicans, most of those victims had been in the island for centuries, calling the Spanish when all they knew was this land, is in my opinion unfair and ridiculous. You guys also like to forget that it wasn't just white criollos the ones killed in this massacre, many many people of color and blacks were also killed, just read a few pages back, how some black Dominicans were taken back to Haitia as prisoners, and how Henri had a bunch of color people against the edge of the river along with everyone else.

This seems a perfectly reasonable summation of the issue. What most Domnicans have learned is the history from their families, from the oral tradition. Not from reading about the various revolutions and upheavals,. And from thier point of view, indeed, they had done nothing to merit the slaughter.

Surely only a small minority at the time could read or knew anything at all about any sort of treaty with the French, if indeed the locals even signed one. If they did sign anything, it would have surely been destroyed. So, certianly in their own minde, and the minds of their descendants, the people.


What Dominicans are evidently still not taught is that these people were indeed in the middle of a brutal war in which almost all the whites on the French side were slaughtered. I do not know if they are taught about the sort of slavery that was imposed on Hiaiti, or really much about slavery at all.

If there is only one eyewitness account, then one account it is.

Why this has not been translated and is not for sale on Amazon is a mystery to me. I think that it would help to expalin the Anti Haitianismo.