The Haitian Occupation of the Dominican Republic

[Chip]

Lets assume she is, this still doesn't excuse the fact that your goal isn't to edify but rather to denigrate the thread. Show some maturity.

You apparently have no idea how offensive it is do Dominicans to try to change their history. That is beyond immaturity.

 

[AlterEgo]

This thread is becoming a full-time job for me, and I'm not convinced it's doing much good keeping it open. Most of the arguments have already been made, and I'm afraid we're about to descend into name-calling and bitterness. I will say I've learned more about this subject in this one thread than I ever knew.

AE,

I suggest you take a look at Chip carefully.

delite, I look at all posters in the threads I moderate.

Gurabo, You're only speculating the sentiments of these Cibaenos(Spanish settlers). Where is your proof that they were bullied. For some afraid people, why did they sign a treaty with the French? You have one source which is arising all types of emotions which is understandable but let's try to figure out why with references. We are doing pretty good and I have learnt a lot thus far sauf a Gringo instigating as if he's Dominican. NS, please put into your opinions. I would like to here from my compatriots Tizozo, Roody etc. The history of this island is very complicated and we must make sure these atrocities doesn't ever happen again.

I'd say the document he's referenced several times is proof of the sentiments of the Cibaenos

No one need not fear that these atrocities will ever happen again, for I can assure you
that Dominicans today will make sure of that. This is the reason why Haiti and the DR
will never see eye to eye, too much bitterness and hatred from BOTH sides. The only
thing they do is share an island that's about it. Both countries need to look out for
their own welfare and maintain some civil semblance but that's about all that can be
gained from this revision of history, which is stirring up very unpleasant memories.

If nothing else, this thread has made it abundantly clear that the past is very alive to many today.

Well how so? to me this source is more accurate than any other I've read about these accounts, it's an eyewitness account.

I have to agree with you

Please provide a reference of this treaty.

I'd like to see this too - does it exist?

I would ask that you respect the history of the Dominican Republic from it's citizens eyes, and not foreigners who once invaded, occupied and massacred them.

I'd like to see respect for both the Dominicans and the Haitians, and all the posters in this thread. Sharing of opinions and respectful disagreements all can have positive results.

 

[mountainannie]

Chip, you do not know me. We have never met.Nor, I expect, will we ever.

I have not, nor has anyone else, posted any sort of propoganda, on this thread. Propaganda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I cite sources. In fact, I am the one who has cited Domnican sources, and posted translations of other sources, I concede points. I do not care one way or the other if others share my own opinions.

I do not see you can say that you know either Quiskeya or KMel for years as Quiskeya had 560 posts and KMel has 164.

I think, rather, that you simply object to anyone whom you think might be the sllightest bit "pro Haitan"

What others may have learned, and what you have clearly not, is that the massacres that occurred on this side of the island in this time period were in the context of a slave revoltuion, a war. Perhaps they have seen that. Perhaps they have not.

But it does not appear to be taught this way to the Dominicans. It seems to be rather taught that the attack came out of nowhere.

Just a few moments ago, AE posted that "there was no war going on" when the entrie west of the island was burning. Europe was completely at war. The US had just finished a war. The British, the Spanish, the French were constantly ar war during this time.

The British had invaded once already... and taken the gold bells.. wow..

and then they invaded again.. and I guess took the rest of the bells..

So freedom? such as it is.. evidently has always had a price in blood.

 

[Naked_Snake]

NS, please put into your opinions. I would like to here from my compatriots Tizozo, Roody etc. The history of this island is very complicated and we must make sure these atrocities doesn't ever happen again.

I already did a few pages back. This account, and the one of Antonio Del Monte y Tejada, should be seen on the same light as the accounts from the survivors of the French part (like Descourtilz, for example). It's useless to look for sympathy on eyewitnesses that not only lost whatever means of living they had (and in the case of the easterners, it was actually very little) but almost lost their necks as well. The simple fact of their having the courage to sit down and relive those moments for the sake of their not falling into oblivion should be praised, or at least given the benefit of a grudging understanding. God only knows that, if I were to be the survivor of such an event, I'd look for any way/means to forget it.

 

[mountainannie]

so after la Reconquista

we have a period called Espana Bobo.. which I am sure it was not called at the time


we are back to Boyer which is where the thread started
Jean Pierre Boyer - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
Jean Pierre Boyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and then independence.. which is now celebrated as the actualy founding of the Dominican Republic, the time when it declared its independence.

There are, I think, two or maybe three other invastions by Haiti into the DR of whiich I know nothing and would like to learn.

Anyone?

 

[Chip]

I'd like to see respect for both the Dominicans and the Haitians, and all the posters in this thread. Sharing of opinions and respectful disagreements all can have positive results.

I have merely stated a fact that many people in this thread have an agenda that is offensive to Dominicans. If they find it disrespectful so be it. When people willingly give in to pressure to exchange truth for lies we are in trouble as a race.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Quiskeya, I do not think that you can make the assumption that the Spanish colonists were the same type of slave owners as the French. There is no evidence to support that whatsoever. If they had been, there would have been an uprising. So do not make the mistake of lumping the Spanish and the French together.

Do we know of the sort of class, race distinction here between mulattos and blacks as there was in Haiti. There were, most likely, no mulattos here who had univeristy educations in Spain, or wre large property owners, or perhaps, even owned slaves. I do not know this.. I am merely speculating.

And warning about the dangers of clumping the two colonys.. the French one, which was the jewel of the French colonies, and the Spanish one, which appeaars to have been a rather abadoned outpost in the Spanish Empire... into one colonial rule.

Exactly. The easiest way to understand societal relations in a given colony is to look at their economic regime, and how wide the gulf was between the haves and the have nots. As such, the poverty of this side of the island was such, that you only had two persons from the colony that had written works of literature (Antonio Sanchez Valverde and Joseph Peguero), while on the French colony you had theaters, Masonic lodges, newspapers, naturalist societies, and even two languages, a local vernacular spoken mostly by the African masses, and the standard French of then Royal France. The cultural divergence on this side of the island seems to have disappeared after this colony felt into insignificance, and not only the slaves lost their own tribal filiations/surnames, but the "masters" had even lost some of the habits of Iberia, like the cuisine for example. In fact, to put you an example, wouldn't be widespread over here until the Anericans invaded in 1916.

 

[AlterEgo]

Chip, you do not know me. We have never met.Nor, I expect, will we ever.

I have not, nor has anyone else, posted any sort of propoganda, on this thread. Propaganda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I cite sources. In fact, I am the one who has cited Domnican sources, and posted translations of other sources, I concede points. I do not care one way or the other if others share my own opinions.

I do not see you can say that you know either Quiskeya or KMel for years as Quiskeya had 560 posts and KMel has 164.

I think, rather, that you simply object to anyone whom you think might be the sllightest bit "pro Haitan"

What others may have learned, and what you have clearly not, is that the massacres that occurred on this side of the island in this time period were in the context of a slave revoltuion, a war. Perhaps they have seen that. Perhaps they have not.

But it does not appear to be taught this way to the Dominicans. It seems to be rather taught that the attack came out of nowhere.

Just a few moments ago, AE posted that "there was no war going on" when the entrie west of the island was burning. Europe was completely at war. The US had just finished a war. The British, the Spanish, the French were constantly ar war during this time.

The British had invaded once already... and taken the gold bells.. wow..

and then they invaded again.. and I guess took the rest of the bells..

So freedom? such as it is.. evidently has always had a price in blood.

Annie! When I said there was no war, I meant there was no declared war between Haiti and DR. Whatever was happening in the rest of the world is totally immaterial. What was happening in Haiti - a different country - does not mean there was a war on the eastern end of the island. WAR. Not a conflict. These people in the Cibao were civilians trying to live their lives, they were not soldiers in any sense of the word. Don't get me started about the women and little children. How anyone can find justification in that is beyond me - not that I am accusing you of that.

As you have said, it is not a secret that your sympathies lie with the Haitians. I absolutely agree that you have also cited Dominican sources and have tried to be fair in your judgements. We're dealing here with a subject where emotions run high on both sides.

I'm trying to be an impartial moderator here, and it's not an easy task when some posters arbitrarily want to dismiss any sources they don't agree with, or that they find offensive.

All of you, please remember where you are. This is DR1. It's only natural that many of the members are sympathetic to the Dominican perspective.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Annie! When I said there was no war, I meant there was no declared war between Haiti and DR. Whatever was happening in the rest of the world is totally immaterial. What was happening in Haiti - a different country - does not mean there was a war on the eastern end of the island. WAR. Not a conflict. These people in the Cibao were civilians trying to live their lives, they were not soldiers in any sense of the word. Don't get me started about the women and little children. How anyone can find justification in that is beyond me - not that I am accusing you of that.

As you have said, it is not a secret that your sympathies lie with the Haitians. I absolutely agree that you have also cited Dominican sources and have tried to be fair in your judgements. We're dealing here with a subject where emotions run high on both sides.

I'm trying to be an impartial moderator here, and it's not an easy task when some posters arbitrarily want to dismiss any sources they don't agree with, or that they find offensive.

All of you, please remember where you are. This is DR1. It's only natural that many of the members are sympathetic to the Dominican perspective.

The fundamental conundrum here is that the few accounts from survivors here aren't taken into account not only because they are part of the vanquished (victors are the ones to get to write history, or so they say), but there's also the fact that the testimony isn't given validity due to the association of said vanquished with other oppressors worldwide (guilt by association). Delite criticizes my and others using the words "liberal", "conservative", "pc", etc., but what we're seeing is exactly the sort of thing that political correctness is accused of, mainly:

1- The belief that blacks (or any kind of nonwhite tribe, for that matter), can't be racist because they have no power.
2- War crimes, preemptive strikes, etc., are only valid on some tribes (the underdogs) and not for everyone else. As Juan Bosch would say, "do we all play by the same rules, or do we simply break the cards"?

 

[Chip]

Chip, you do not know me. We have never met.Nor, I expect, will we ever.

I don't need to meet you to know where your agenda stands.

I cite sources. In fact, I am the one who has cited Domnican sources, and posted translations of other sources, I concede points. I do not care one way or the other if others share my own opinions.

You may cite sources, but they rarely conflict with your agenda, like that the Haitian soldiers were heroes in spite of their massacre of innocent civilians.

I think, rather, that you simply object to anyone whom you think might be the sllightest bit "pro Haitan"

You are confused, I am pro truth, try to comprehend that. I also possibly have helped more Haitians than you ever could.

What others may have learned, and what you have clearly not, is that the massacres that occurred on this side of the island in this time period were in the context of a slave revoltuion, a war. Perhaps they have seen that. Perhaps they have not.

There you go again, changing history. And you wonder why I say you have little credibility?

So freedom? such as it is.. evidently has always had a price in blood.

Wow, the justification of the slaughter of innocents. Somehow I’m not surprised.

 

[delite]

My point has been proven!

 

[AlterEgo]

I've given a lot of thought before making a decision about this thread.

Yes, many of us have learned a great deal through it. There have been over 5800 views of the thread.

Someone pointed out to me in a private message that this thread is most probably harmful to the Haitians living in the DR right now. It has revived a lot of dormant feelings of hatred. I think it has real possibility of increasing anti-Haitianismo among a good number of those 5800 viewers.

As a result, this thread is now closed.