What is with dom-yorks and trying to be extra-dominican?

Chip

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I believe part of the problem is due to the need in the US to "identify" with a racial group in order to have some sense of purpose or belonging.

While there may be some benefits to this, especially in understanding one's heritage, at least in my opinion it is overly exaggerated and given way too much emphasis in our culture. I in will fact will be glad when I don't ever have to hear from another person, "I'm part scotts irish and german, african" etc.

Of course the predicament is what do you do with all of those "in betweeners" who can fit in more than one category?
 

gemenilaidback

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"""This really ****es me off. These folks can't speak English or Spanish correctly and they sound so ignorant.

And I bet a lot of those moms that you are delivering are having babies out of wedlock and they are on medicaid and welfare.

I really never go to Washington heights because it ****es me off to see how a lot (Not ALL) of the Dominicans there behave like barrio trash.We as latinos need to stop equating "keeping it real" with keeping it real stupid and ignorant.

We don't don't need to emulate white people in style of dress and diction to come across as successful. ""

I agree with these statements it really saddens me..but dont get me wrong I have been called acting white at times...mostly from Boricuas from the hood and African Americans who try so hard to be "hood".

One time a white lady on the phone said to my co-workers I want better for my children than I have had...I said ...well uh YEAH thats what I live and work hard for. the African American and Boricua didn't understand the idea and said I did fine having kids out of wedlock and going to public school rather than Catholic private school like I did. I was perpelexed byt the idea of why parents would want thier kids to make the same mistakes tthey did and wouldnt want their kids to further their succession farther than they did...I didn't understand the logic in this statement???

I used to love hip hop but from 88- 95..but lately I cant bear to stand it and just thinking about it other than Noe-Soul, Salsa, Bachata (older or more refined) , and older Merengue I haven't listened to much hip hop. I would think this equated with being more mature but maybe its something different I always looked at it as entertainment...but not necessarily a lifestyle because I could not relate to it. there is hope though recent sutdies have found with younger black and Latino youth have equated the sucesses with Barack Obama with the desire to not wanting to emulate entertainers and rappers/reagaeton and rather more ecademic persuits. I really hope this trend continues. I hate to admit this but I don't feel ANY bond other than nationality and distant heritage to the uber- ghetto,thug personario types .In fact they disgust me. I am studying to be a history professor and wonder why anyone in my classes who aspires to teach would dress as a hoodlum. whats really funny lately like from what we have seen form Ice T apparently the older hip hop people aren't pleased by thier younger counterparts saying it is unintelligible, ignorant, patronizing, and deviating from what they strove for.

I have a summer job in my best freinds hat store what intrigues me is he is a light skin Columbian type. Most of the thug impresonarios will not speak or buy from me.

I can not say I do not feel Dominican though regardless of how the ghetto ty;pes feel .I speak spanish, I am a Catholic, speak fluent English,value education for sucess to being pivotal due to my family, and I eat and cook criolio cuisine everyday, in my opinion this is more Dominican than the ghetto types I mostly meet. These types at many times will wear the flag ornaments constantly, wont date Dominican counterparts, bear children out of wedlock, eat fast food at all costs (especially chinese), and havent been to mass in years. I can never deny with what feels in their heart but what do you have to do to not be a sell out??
Although they will call me Colin Powell (who is actually Jamaican), Omar Minyana (cant see hwo he is a sellout he is very successful as the Met's general manager), and one guy even called me Alex Rodriguez ans an insult.

David Chapelle the African American comedian use to have a funny smart show. One part was called when keeping it real goes wrong. It made fun of the violence, vulgarism, and other antics frequently catalogued with hip hop. Although I msut admit there si intelligent hip hop such as the roots yet it just isnt that popular with the new breed or hip hoppers and reaggaeton enthusiasts. I listen to songs that inspire me and altely hip hop isn't living up to what is started as but I think it is a age thing. it jsut seems some dont know when to just grow up. I hate to see people with tie tops on their head in public in their 30's under a baseball cap.
 

Berzin

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Of course the predicament is what do you do with all of those "in betweeners" who can fit in more than one category?


Its' different if you are a teenager and fitting in means so much, but as you get older that stuff means less and less every day.
 

RGVgal

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Its' different if you are a teenager and fitting in means so much, but as you get older that stuff means less and less every day.

What I don't get is why are young dominicans identifying and trying to fit in with the "ghetto" culture? Why not identify with working hard, going to school and being decent, law abiding citizens that contribute positively to our society.
 

Mr. Lu

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More than that...

One thing that I hate about hip-hop and those who buy into all the stereotypes is that it has hijacked our cultural identity and cheapened it to the point where people immediately equate latino with "ghetto".

As a side note to all the hip-hop fans out there who feel the need to get offended by everything I say about this topic-please spare me the fan mail this time around. I already know where you stand on this issue and I really don't care.


This is more than just about hip hop. The issues discussed here merit more consideration than blaming things on what people listen to. It's easy to just pass the blame on music and keep it moving. The value of the conversation and it's subject matter (i.e Dominicans and their identity) and the complexity of it all deserves to be evaluated intensely and carefully. Things of value deserve dedication, so don't just say "it's hip hop."

I continue by saying that the core issue, as has been pointed out by some, is about identity and class. It is tied into so many other things, like money, socio-economics, gender, history, sexuality and many other layered perspectives.

Perspectives are varied as are the ways of dealing with the issue at hand, but what we must always take into consideration is that each individual will have the right and responsibility to define him/herself as they see fit and that each person's definition of what and who is Dominican will vary. Not fair, but true.

Finally, what you consider "hip hop" is not hip hop. It's a minstrel show with baboons and buffoons singing "gangster pop." At the core of the real hip hop movement and hip hop culture is the understanding that what you see on MTV and BET isn't hip hop. 50 cent isn't hip hop. Young Jeezy isn't hip hop. Souljah Boy isn't hip hop. Bitches and hos and champagne and Bentleys isn't hip hop. Take a minute, study up on the subject.

The genre has its roots in social/political unrest and is a reflection of the cultural melange that was New York City in the 70's and what globalization has created today. The roots of hip hop culture can be traced back to the African Slave Trade, the post Slave/Reconstruction era, the share cropper communities of the south and beyond. The music is more than just bling on TV, so be willing to consider that REAL hip hop culture has a value you have yet come to appraise.

And even if you all disagree with me, it's ok. We are all entitled to our opinions.


Cheers to all and good day,




Mr. Lu
 

Berzin

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Finally, what you consider "hip hop" is not hip hop. It's a minstrel show with baboons and buffoons singing "gangster pop." At the core of the real hip hop movement and hip hop culture is the understanding that what you see on MTV and BET isn't hip hop. 50 cent isn't hip hop. Young Jeezy isn't hip hop. Souljah Boy isn't hip hop. Bitches and hos and champagne and Bentleys isn't hip hop. Take a minute, study up on the subject.

What you just mentioned is EXACTLY what hip-hop is to the fools who listen to it and to the world at large.

Real hip-hop was born in the late 70's in the Bronx and died the second NWA busted out with "Straight Outta Compton", and its' been downhill from there.



The genre has its roots in social/political unrest and is a reflection of the cultural melange that was New York City in the 70's and what globalization has created today. The roots of hip hop culture can be traced back to the African Slave Trade, the post Slave/Reconstruction era, the share cropper communities of the south and beyond. The music is more than just bling on TV, so be willing to consider that REAL hip hop culture has a value you have yet come to appraise.

You are giving this extremely limited art form, which revolves around packaging negative stereotypes for sale to a mostly white suburban audience and where there isn't a real instrument played in sight, waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. And unfortunately too many of our youth wear these stereotypes like a badge of honor.

Ever heard a young dominican exaggerating that annoying Cibao accent even though they've never stepped foot anywhere near the island?

Educated dominicans don't speak like that, and it would embarrass them to be around fools who act in such a way that does not elevate their culture.

You may be a fan and a defender of the music, but to me calling hip-hop a culture is a cop-out. Why? Because the negative messages and influences drown out the positive. Therefore it is not something we should gravitate towards or identify with. We as latinos can and should strive to be better than the message we get from that music.

Johhny Pacheco, a dominican from Santiago, was a master who helped create salsa music. You really think any chopo hanging out on Broadway and 145th Street with his pants dangling around his knees knows who he is? Of course not.

He had a hand in creating music that uplifted the culture-anywhere you go you can say you are a fan of Pacheco and not have to be embarrassed. You can't say that about hip-hop. Take it out of the ghetto and it has no place.

And as for your summarization on the roots of hip-hop, you need to do some research on jazz music, a true american art form created and developed almost exclusively by blacks. The roots of jazz can be traced back to the slave trade, but hip-hop? You are exaggerating with that statement.

For whatever reason you defend this music to the point where you overestimate its place in history and its' influence. Why I don't know.

But let me tell you the damage it does-a young, intelligent, educated latino from the inner city is labeled twice-once in his hood from the morons who think he is a "sellout" and again out in the real world where some people expect the worse from him because he is latino and from the "hood".

This hurts a dominicans' chances at getting ahead and leading a decent life. But thank goodness it doesn't stop them.

Anyone who hangs out in Washington Heights knows that there are many young dominicans who conduct themselves with dignity and want nothing to do with those stereotypes. And they dress and behave much differently than their ghetto counterparts, who in the name of representing their "dominicanness" ruin it by the way they dress and act.
 

Mr. Lu

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Mar 26, 2007
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...

This is more than just about hip hop. The issues discussed here merit more consideration than blaming things on what people listen to. It's easy to just pass the blame on music and keep it moving. The value of the conversation and it's subject matter (i.e Dominicans and their identity) and the complexity of it all deserves to be evaluated intensely and carefully. Things of value deserve dedication, so don't just say "it's hip hop."

I continue by saying that the core issue, as has been pointed out by some, is about identity and class. It is tied into so many other things, like money, socio-economics, gender, history, sexuality and many other layered perspectives.

Perspectives are varied as are the ways of dealing with the issue at hand, but what we must always take into consideration is that each individual will have the right and responsibility to define him/herself as they see fit and that each person's definition of what and who is Dominican will vary. Not fair, but true.



And even if you all disagree with me, it's ok. We are all entitled to our opinions.



Cheers to all and good day,




Mr. Lu



Please re-read what I wrote. We know your stance on hip hop, though Nikki Giovanni would disagree. The conversation is not about hip hop and blaming the issues of the Dominican community on music is superficial, at best.


Instead, why aren't we asking...where are the parents in this? The schools? Our community activists? Our extended family unit? Where are our leaders? Where are our role models? These are the people that help us shape the concept of identity.

Why don't we look at the images children see on TV or in the movies or the messages they get from advertising? Why can bands like Phish promote drug use and no one bats an eye? Why is it that when white kids in the burbs shoot up schools we blame parents and "depression" and "family issues" but when a kid in urban America speaks in slang music is to blame.

Our community and its "issues" deserve the respect of carefully analyzing all its negatives and how they can be attended to. The level of conversation needs to be raised and the complexities of the conversation needs to reflect the complexities of the issues at hand. Our communities deserve that, at the very least.

Blaming it on hip hop is like drunk driving in the rain at night, without a seat belt on, while smoking and then blaming your accident on the mom crossing the street.


And even if you all disagree with me, it's ok. We are all entitled to our opinions, no matter how wrong they are. :glasses:


Cheers all,

Mr. Lu
 

gemenilaidback

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""What I don't get is why are young dominicans identifying and trying to fit in with the "ghetto" culture? Why not identify with working hard, going to school and being decent, law abiding citizens that contribute positively to our society."""

This si the million dollar question I think from experience it is because it is not "cool". being cool is not being smart in the USA...but many submit to the peer pressures by trying to be cool...many to avoid not being beat up and being accepted it is easy to follow the crowd but hard to be a leader.

also I agree with Berzin there is a difference between rap and hip hop. I ahve even seen professional people wear preppie clothing very subtle yet rap is crap that you would see on BET and on the radio that has taken over.
I think hip hop is not fullly dead just more underground but due to commercialization in the 90's it lost alot of steam..Even during NWA there was still a very sophisticated subculture of Native Toungue, Roots, digable Planets..then the cronic came with gangsta rap and it kept gaining a prominent following ever since..I never subscribed to it. Although it is human nature too...even when heavy metal was popular I liked some of it but I hated the satanic death metal which was the most dominant. I all genres of muci I think there is good music then there is crap yet the crap always seems to become the most sought after.
The sad thing is something Berzin touched on how Latino and Black youth dont know how to dress in a business (even business causal) type of enviroment. I tell teenagers especially my Dominican youth to not dress so they make themselves a target for negativity, know how to wear a suit, a tie, a polo, khakis, many don't even own these things or how to properly wear them. also how to speak when they are in a business appropriate enviroment or an interview. i tell them there is a time and place for this and thats college (old joke) and after you leave it at college( and don't bring it to the internship). I also tell them to read and pick up a GQ every now and then and extend you vocabulary. No one will hire anyone who speaks like "50" in a job interview. the bad thing is these few examples of acting in this way are somewhat affluent but they don't understand the odds of "making it" as an entertainer or athlete are very slim and by percentage marginal. The funny thing is we are not the only ones who speak about this subject frequently believe it or not middle class African Americans talk about it, Jamaicans, Nigerians, Caucasians, Trinidadians, Kenyans etc... I have hope things will get better once more people see that these are people out to entertain not to emulate. My parents (Ma and Popi which is a rarity these days) let me know early but many peoples parents in poor communities aren't spending much time with their children and these are the children are targets who don't know how to filter with what they see hear and read. Also some kids just have their own personality adnare just "caro duros" and won't listen to anyone. I have hope things will get better every thing comes to an end.
 

gemenilaidback

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sorry double post

The parents have to step in and not blame it on the environment though and tell their kids what they are watching. My dad told me this is not the real world and made me work with him every summer. while my friends that aren't doing that well now were partying and doing other things (bad things,starting an early family) I was working. My ma was always going to teacher parent conferencing, PTA meetings,my sisters helped me with homework and college letters. Families have to get involved. You have to take kids out of their environment once and a while I mentor a kid now and sometimes I have to take him to my graduate school, take him by my professors, show him there is more than whats just on tv. It seems you have to take care of your kids and make it your responsibility as it has always been cause they aren't planning to build more schools they are building more privatized business minded prisons...cause they plan to make money off the next wave of young criminals. It is sad but trued the Prison Industrial complex is a reality specializing from manufacturing to call centers (for 45 cents an hr).
 
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Berzin

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Mr. Lu-if you are going to call hip-hop a culture then you cannot negate the power of its' negative influence.

The fact is the music bombards us with misogynistic, pro-gangster images that many urban youth want to emulate and incorporate as a lifestyle. That message, which drowns out any positive influence that other rappers may want to put out, is detrimental to our development as a people.

Why should all young urban latinos have their identities hijacked by this negative imagery?

You can't have it both ways. The visuals speak for themselves.

Here we have a dignified, elegant image of Johnny Pacheco, a towering figure in his field-

9pnk10.jpg



Juxtapose that with this-

2rxwllt.jpg


I rest my case.
 
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Mr. Lu

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Our community and its "issues" deserve the respect of carefully analyzing all its negatives and how they can be attended to. The level of conversation needs to be raised and the complexities of the conversation needs to reflect the complexities of the issues at hand. Our communities deserve that, at the very least.


This is not about hip hop. We've heard the various opinions on the likes. But the conversation here is about Dominicans and identity. If you can't step up to the plate and opine intelligently on the topic, then please do not opine. You seem to be on a mission. Maybe something happened to you a long time ago and now you're the crusader against this genre. Whatever the case may be I have declined to argue with you on the subject and have clearly stated that you are entitled to opine on such things as you please.

Please, if you are going to contribute to this thread do so with reference to Dominicans and not your distaste for something that so minimally affects the situation.



Cheers,


Mr. Lu
 

RGVgal

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I agree with Mr. Lu, the conversation can't just be about Hip Hop or any other type of music or entertainment. That is too simplistic and it absolves the parents and the community from taking any responsibily for the terrible state that are youth are in.
 

Lapurr

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Instead, why aren't we asking...where are the parents in this? The schools? Our community activists? Our extended family unit? Where are our leaders? Where are our role models? These are the people that help us shape the concept of identity.

I think some of the problem is....

kids are having kids...these young teens are making babies of their own.

The parents of these kids are working hard to feed, shelter and clothe their children, yet in the meantime, the kids are running at large.

I agree role models are required to build a healthy conscience and lifestyle.
 

margaret

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Aug 9, 2006
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Consumer Culture

You can't have it both ways. The visuals speak for themselves.

Here we have a dignified, elegant image of Johnny Pacheco, a towering figure in his field-

9pnk10.jpg



Juxtapose that with this-

2rxwllt.jpg


I rest my case.


As much as I love Johnny Pacheco, you know that his image and his identity were carefully and consciously constructed to sell more product and create a persona and star image. These commodities (champagne, tuxedo, cigar) are associated with celebrity and class, they have meaning. By associating them with his own identity, he's making a statement and creating an identity for himself in the marketplace. And the same for the image of the women in the hip hop ad, the female body a source pleasure, beauty, and creation is commodified and brings meaning to other commodities. And there's a bit pressure on young girls to slutty in dress and behaviour.

Unfortunately many of us in a consumer society express our identity through objects that have symbolic meaning. As a consumer, I can purchase the same products and somehow transform myself through the power of the symbols. I think wanting to belong to a community is a very human and I try not to judge people who haven't found their true identity. Often it has a lot to do with finding themselves in situations that were out of their control (rejection, abandonment, alienation) and they aren't even conscious of what their doing and unfortunately they don't always have the parents, educators and community to guide them.

Excuse me, while I go do some shop therapy.... if I have the right shoes, I could be Cinderella.
 

Lapurr

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It's all marketing's fault!

I came to Canada as an immigrant!! my parents knew nothing, in fact I was taught first, and I had to catch on quick.

only then was I able to teach them what I knew-and this was all before I was 10 years old, my brother and I were the only English speaking in the household for many many years! I had more influence on them than they had on me.

so when it comes to parenting, family values, and survival...these are the essential skills required in any household...

but... the choices I made, were made by myself, to this day! These kids choose to do what they do-hence the diversity.
 

Berzin

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Nov 17, 2004
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Typical of hip-hop apologists.

You say that this music is a culture, yet refuse to take responsibility for the images that are portrayed, which really only stereotype the very communities it supposedly represents.

So the music represents a culture, but when the negative stereotypes are questioned, the problem is bigger than the music and can't possibly be at the very least partially at fault.

Whatever.........

I saw a young kid today riding his bmx bike down the street. His shorts were completely off his behind and all you saw were his sweaty, nasty underwear.

Everyone in the street from young and old alike had to be subjected to this disgusting display.

But the fact that most hip-hop artists perform with their pants falling down to their knees-a style propagated by prisoners who have to walk around in jail with no belts is in no way responsible for this kid thinking that such a thing is cool.

Wherever would he get that idea from? Certainly not from watching rap videos. "Cause isn't this the way EVERYONE dresses in the hood?

v5xr0l.jpg
 

Mr. Lu

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Typical of hip-hop apologists.


What? This is not about hip hop. What part of this do you not get? Why are you bent on just repeating the same things over and over? You are entitled to your opinions, but understand that your opinion is not an absolute. I have reserved commentary on your posts for two reasons:

A) in respect of the thread, its posters, its content etc...

B) because arguing about hip hop would constitute something not DR related, leading to the closing of the thread and since I feel some of the topics raised are important, I'd like to see the conversation continue.

I could argue about hip hop and its benefits, how it has been co-opted and misconstrued to represent something it's not and I could argue what you have voiced is just a limited and one sided view of the whole picture. If you are interested in really having a conversation on the topic pick up a book by Michael Eric Dyson or Nikki Giovanni. You might not agree with me, but the opinions of two of Black America's leading voices should make you rethink your stance. Or at the very least provide you with a perspective not your own. But seeing how you have responded thus far, I might have wasted key strokes.

I've studied this, have read academic literature on this and written papers on this. Trust I have enough in my repertoire to carefully defend hip hop culture and rap music...but this is not the time, nor the place for that discussion....

When you are ready to discuss and have acquired enough to continue the discussion on Dominican identity please let me know. Until then, please refrain from supercilious and superfluous commentary.



Mr. Lu
 

Berzin

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Mr. Lu-

Young dominican males do not need "street cred" to validate their culture. Dominican culture is rich, varied and complex and doesn't eminate from the gutter like present-day hip-hop does.

They don't need to be exposed to misogynistic messages degrading women.

They don't need to resort to gratuitous cursing as a means of verbal expression.

They don't need to have drug dealers, pimps and gangsters as role models.

Neither you nor Michael Eric Dyson can explain away your lack of accountability for this gutter music that at the end of the day uplifts no one and disgraces everyone that listens to it.

Come back and speak to me when this music approaches something worthy of a dignified influence on our youth. But that's not going to happen EVER so spare me your two-bit sermons.
 

Chip

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As a father of three young girls I agree 100% the detrimental effect this type of music is having on our youths, even here in the DR with the reggaeton.
 

Bronxboy

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I'd say, bring back old school Salsa and Merengue!!!!!!!!

Old school HIP HOP was not bad.