It was at one time the pearl of the Caribbean, but only when they were under french overlordship, when it was said that France had more revenue from that colony than what Britain collected from the US, India and Jamaica combined. Do the words "Saint Domingue" ring any bells to you? The colony's capital, Cap Francais (today Cap Haitien) was named "The Paris of the Caribbean" in light of the luxurious life that the colonists carried over there.
- Thread starter AlActor
- Start date
One Island, One Country.
It was at one time the pearl of the Caribbean, but only when they were under french overlordship, when it was said that France had more revenue from that colony than what Britain collected from the US, India and Jamaica combined. Do the words "Saint Domingue" ring any bells to you? The colony's capital, Cap Francais (today Cap Haitien) was named "The Paris of the Caribbean" in light of the luxurious life that the colonists carried over there.
Yes some people here in the US are no friendly with the Hispanics immigrants, some time I can feel the hate, I?m working like cashier in a public parking deck and some time when I greet the customers some of them don?t respond to me, they only hand me the money. Then I say thank you!!! Have a nice day!!! Or Merry Christmas!!! Or happy holidays?..And they only look at me like a rare animal? But let me tell you something those are very few, most of the people here are very well educated and friendly specially the young people that don?t have racial issues.
JJ
- More than 87 schools servicing more than 12,000 children living in the bateyes, free of charge.
- More than 173,000 free medical visits in 2006.
- Some sugar companies offer all workers, their companion and children, workers’ health insurance.
- More than 124,000 free dental in 2006.
DR Facts
-NALs
Most countries in the world are doing just fine without Haitians, but we all understand that the necessary quality is not having Haitians but rather having cheap labor.pedrochemical said:
Haitians don't have a monopoly on that front.
A day without a Haitian is a day with more Cubans, Colombians, Chinese, and a host of other nationalities that have large numbers of illegal immigrants vs. their total immigrant population in the DR.
One thing they will satisfy is the cheap labor necessity.
Sorry, but I'm just stating the obvious.
While many Dominicans do have short memories, most do not have a delusional one.pedrochemical said:
The DR has never been categorized as a failed state.
However, what you are probably referring to was an article in a magazine that has little value beyond entertainment when during the crisis of 2003/04 it said that the DR was one of the countries at risk of becoming a failed state.
And, despite such comment coming for an unimportant magazine, it was true at the time. In fact, any country with a severe financial crisis can be said to be at risk of becoming a failed state, but that doesn't mean the DR was a failed state.
Failed state is not something that is gained and discarded on an overnight basis. Also, its not a status that exist because an unimportant magazine decides to assign such to any particular countries.
You see, Haiti has been categorized as a failed state not just by that same magazine, but also by international organizations ranging from NGOs to GOs from all over the world.
And the DR? By a simple unimportant magazine - and it was a one time thing based on an isolated and extraordinary incident the country was experiencing. :surprised
On a side note, I do find it interesting that despite the U.S. being in a crisis that is as troublesome to its own survival as the Dominican crisis was to the DR and yet, not a single publication anywhere is even remotely hinting the US running the risk of becoming a failed state.
That's quite a sense of humor some people have. :ermm:
Ah, more delusional memory.pedrochemical said:
30 years ago Haiti was anything but the Pearl of the Caribbean. In fact, Haiti has never been considered the pearl of anything. What it has been referred to has been the most ridiculous caricature of civilization according to Grahame Greene as well as the Paris of the Gutter regarding Port-au-Prince. And those comments were made about 30 or 40 years ago.
But to your credit, there was a time when the coastal areas of modern day Haiti was once referred to as the Pearl of the Caribbean. Alas, that was when it was known as the French Colony of St. Domingue; hence it wasn't Haiti per se and it certainly wasn't 30 years ago.
Oh, poor you. The DR is given $77 million and now you think of yourself as the owner of the country.pedrochemical said:
What's $77 million?
That's chump change. It's less than 1% of the budget of the Dominican government. With that money you can't even fund the education department, much less anything else!
So, go and find something else to belittle because that is not one of the them.
The DR is much more self-reliant than your holier-than-thou attitude pretends.
And you go and read some facts!pedrochemical said:
PS. I'm not defending leodabull, but rather getting the misinformation out of the way.
-NALs
Now, now.
Let's not go overboard with the all encompassing brush. Let's see what some interesting people have to say on the matter:
1. Edwin Paraison, Former Haitian Consul in the Dominican Republic, November 15, 2007
?Isolated cases [of racial discrimination] conducted by individuals do not demonstrate that Dominicans in general or that Dominican authorities discriminate against Haitians due to race or skin color.? He also denied that the DR?s constitution or Dominican laws, include provisions or elements that discriminate against Haitians.
2. Fernando ?lvarez Bogaert, lawyer and former Finance Minister of the Dominican Republic
?Are Dominicans racist and anti-Haitian? Absolutely not. ?There are more than one million Haitians in the Dominican Republic, most of them illegal immigrants, competing for jobs against their Dominican counterparts, under the same conditions. In other words, 11.2% of the Dominican Republic?s population is Haitian and illegal. Since most of them are adults, they represent 20% of the DR?s labor pool.?
3. Gerard Latortue, Former Haitian Prime Minister. Miami, Florida ? Sept. 17, 2007
?We will not allow that people with malicious intentions harm the excellent relationship between both countries.?
More here
-NALs
Sad but not true would be much more correct.Mr. Lu said:
People in the U.S. and Europe, for the most part and only when they know of the existence of either country, have the idea that the Haiti is hell on earth and the DR is a beach.
Most are oblivious to anything else of either countries.
For all his rant, he never made any mention or alluded towards racism or skin color. He did, however, made plenty of mention of many other issues, but race and skin color was not one of them.Mr. Lu said:
Don't try to dilute this argument into a race/color issue where none-exist, at least in his argument.
-NALs
........
I'll argue that until I am blue in the face.....blue in the face I'll tell you. Especially on the education part of it all....
Mr. Lu
I'll argue that until I am blue in the face.....blue in the face I'll tell you. Especially on the education part of it all....
Mr. Lu
.....
Say what you want, but those attributes that the poster designated towards Haiti, many in Europe and in the US will attribute to the DR.
I stand by my comments, if this is how "Dominicans" "really" feel, I'd rather not be associated with such a group of people. This "we are better then them attitude" is a social pollutant.
And I included those comments on color, never said the poster did. Not everything one writes is always in direct reference to a previously posted comment.
Mr. Lu
Say what you want, but those attributes that the poster designated towards Haiti, many in Europe and in the US will attribute to the DR.
I stand by my comments, if this is how "Dominicans" "really" feel, I'd rather not be associated with such a group of people. This "we are better then them attitude" is a social pollutant.
And I included those comments on color, never said the poster did. Not everything one writes is always in direct reference to a previously posted comment.
Mr. Lu
Your accusation might hold some truth in the case of some posh places in Santo Domingo and Santiago, but I challenge you to show me one single proof of mean spiritedness on the part of the people in the campos.
We might not be the last Coca Cola on the desert, but we certainly are not the hateful monsters that you're portraying.
Your going to tell me that the average Dominican is not like this?
When a friend of mine forwarded that article to me, I was shocked and not shocked at the same time.
Oh come on! Its true that there are places in the U.S. where the educated are quite numerous, like in the NYC metro area, much of CT, Boston, etc. But, to assume that those areas represents Main St U.S.A. is an overstatement.
The DR is not much different.
-NALs
Um...
Portrayal and reality are two different things. If you think I am portraying the DR or Dominicans as a hateful monster, that's your prerogative. You see the world one way and I see it another way. Whatevs.
Mr. Lu
Portrayal and reality are two different things. If you think I am portraying the DR or Dominicans as a hateful monster, that's your prerogative. You see the world one way and I see it another way. Whatevs.
Mr. Lu
...
What? Big words and fancy literature confuse me. Maybe you misinterpreted a point I was trying to make, or I misinterpreted yours. Either way, off to listen to School House Rock....
Mr. Lu
What? Big words and fancy literature confuse me. Maybe you misinterpreted a point I was trying to make, or I misinterpreted yours. Either way, off to listen to School House Rock....
Mr. Lu
I shall post later as I have to work now,
however I seem to have as many little yellow box points as I have made posts.
Strange, as I am so wrong and disagreeable all the time?????
Good passionate thread though....
however I seem to have as many little yellow box points as I have made posts.
Strange, as I am so wrong and disagreeable all the time?????
Good passionate thread though....
So NALs,
largely I agree with you.
To keep this ramble as short as possible your points seem to be;
A day without a Haitian is a day with more Cubans, Colombians, Chinese
This is The Dominican Republic forum - A day without Chinese, Colombians, maybe even Gringos, would not impact The Dominican Republic like a 'Day Without Haitians'. How many more Haitians are there in the Dominican Republic than Colombians, Chinese and Cubans combined? - Genuine question - NALs will know the answer to this. It is Haitians and Dominicans that we are talking about here. Sure a labour void would eventually be filled by the Filipinos, Guatemalans etc. - but the void is currently filled with Haitians - that is what we are discussing - plus, most of the Cubans or Chinese I see here would at least figure in the most affluent three fifths of Dominican society. Certainly, the Chinese I know in Santo Domingo would not consider the jobs and payscale that Haitians live with, any more than the Dominicans would.
While many Dominicans do have short memories, most do not have a delusional one. The DR has never been categorized as a failed state.
Again, The Dominican Republic is a net receiver of aid - not a net giver. Look at the improvement and the present situation and, yes, The Dominican Republic has made great leaps and bounds in almost everything. And yes, The Dominican Republic is less messed up than Haiti - but big deal - so are North Korea, Uganda, Republic of Congo, Lancashire and Liberia! Foreign Policy: The Failed States Index 2008
The 77m you quoted is a small part of the aid that The Dominican Republic receives. Where would you place remittances from Dominicans working (illegally or legally) abroad in all of this? If The Dominican Republic is so un-failed, why does it make sense for a university educated Dominican to deliver pizza in the US. and Western Union the cash back - just like the Haitians do from The Dominican Republic?
I think the situation might change if the (usually robust) US do not get their economic shyyt together pretty soon.
Again, Haiti is much more buggered up than the Dominican Republic, but that is because of the inspirational progress that Dominicans have made in terms of embracing democracy, free speech and free market economics (Dominican Style
) since dictatorship - the Haitians have not, but things are radically better than a few years ago - I see genuine change for the better every year - they are right on your heels.
Ah, more delusional memory.
30 years ago Haiti was anything but the Pearl of the Caribbean. In fact, Haiti has never been considered the pearl of anything.
Not true - this place used to be a playground for the rich and famous. I am not saying that is a positive thing, but having seen a lot of Caribbean coastline I know Haiti has some of the most beautiful.
It was an upmarket destination for film stars and successful social climbers.
Nobody comes here now as it ain't up to much. But it used to be - really it did. Just go to some of the hotels and look at the old photos of the visiting gliterati.
An example of this legacy is at the Ollofson Hotel where Graeme Green roomed whilst writing 'The Comedians'.
You have to agree that Greene tended like most satirists to single out human failings rather than focus on the fluffy, romantic rose tinted Mills and Boone aspects of life. Culturally, Haiti is at least as deep as the Dominican Republic - that one would be fun to argue out in another thread.
Two things destroyed the fun, culturally rich and aesthetically beautiful Haiti of a generation ago - the democratic revolution and insuing violence, and the hatchet job of the AIDS story.
Question NALs - How long after Trujillo lost his grip did The Dominican Republic really begin to flourish? - where are we in a comparative time-line as regards Haiti?
Maybe there is hope?
Another consideration is that while both countries' dictators were brutal and maniacal, the Dominican version seemed to care a bit about his country if not his people. The Haitian Dictators cared about neither.
Originally Posted by pedrochemical
Please do not breed any more as people like me have to pay taxes to send financial aid to your little country - also, being good looking and of dubious morals or being able to swing a baseball bat does not make yours a great country.
That was just plain rude. Apologies to whoever I was insulting. As a result, I was way off the mark as you pointed out NALs. But I am offended by bullshyyt sometimes and I still find the comments to which I was reacting disingenuous and shameful.
You will never get the full story about a place unless you live there for some time. The ex-pats in Haiti all like to make life sound more grievous than it actually is for a number of reasons, the two main ones being;
1) They need to justify their wages - high for an ex-pat in Haiti because of the 'danger' and 'hardship' - horseshyyt - they all live in nice apartments, go to nice French restaurants, drive around in dirty great SUV's and have hot girlfriends- they live the life of Riley!
2) Aid is an industry and a career path in Haiti - do not get me started on that one!! Too late - I am going to start another thread as soon as I have stopped boring the board with this contribution.
Generally the media will only report the bad news - I notice that also DR1 has positive stories about The Dominican Republic - nice one, it does not go unnoticed.
Haiti as a country doesn't help itself much, but Haitians have got an unfair reputation. You may ask,"what is a country if it is not the sum of its people?"
Well a country is as much its recent history as it is its people. I beleive that Haiti will eventually be palatable to all the people who are currently irrationally scared of the place.
And you go and read some facts!
True, I am a bit light on historical concensus and statistics - but these are not facts! When NALs writes a post I tend to read it and as I said in the beginning of this post NALs, I agree with a lot of what you are saying - but the verbiage of mister LoadOfBalls had to be countered.
I am not allowed to call him a retard - so I shall rephrase and call him "unenlightened."
A bit off topic and in need of a few edits - but there you go.....
Merry Christmas - pass the eggnogg....irate:
largely I agree with you.
To keep this ramble as short as possible your points seem to be;
A day without a Haitian is a day with more Cubans, Colombians, Chinese
This is The Dominican Republic forum - A day without Chinese, Colombians, maybe even Gringos, would not impact The Dominican Republic like a 'Day Without Haitians'. How many more Haitians are there in the Dominican Republic than Colombians, Chinese and Cubans combined? - Genuine question - NALs will know the answer to this. It is Haitians and Dominicans that we are talking about here. Sure a labour void would eventually be filled by the Filipinos, Guatemalans etc. - but the void is currently filled with Haitians - that is what we are discussing - plus, most of the Cubans or Chinese I see here would at least figure in the most affluent three fifths of Dominican society. Certainly, the Chinese I know in Santo Domingo would not consider the jobs and payscale that Haitians live with, any more than the Dominicans would.
While many Dominicans do have short memories, most do not have a delusional one. The DR has never been categorized as a failed state.
Again, The Dominican Republic is a net receiver of aid - not a net giver. Look at the improvement and the present situation and, yes, The Dominican Republic has made great leaps and bounds in almost everything. And yes, The Dominican Republic is less messed up than Haiti - but big deal - so are North Korea, Uganda, Republic of Congo, Lancashire and Liberia! Foreign Policy: The Failed States Index 2008
The 77m you quoted is a small part of the aid that The Dominican Republic receives. Where would you place remittances from Dominicans working (illegally or legally) abroad in all of this? If The Dominican Republic is so un-failed, why does it make sense for a university educated Dominican to deliver pizza in the US. and Western Union the cash back - just like the Haitians do from The Dominican Republic?
I think the situation might change if the (usually robust) US do not get their economic shyyt together pretty soon.
Again, Haiti is much more buggered up than the Dominican Republic, but that is because of the inspirational progress that Dominicans have made in terms of embracing democracy, free speech and free market economics (Dominican Style
) since dictatorship - the Haitians have not, but things are radically better than a few years ago - I see genuine change for the better every year - they are right on your heels.Ah, more delusional memory.
30 years ago Haiti was anything but the Pearl of the Caribbean. In fact, Haiti has never been considered the pearl of anything.
Not true - this place used to be a playground for the rich and famous. I am not saying that is a positive thing, but having seen a lot of Caribbean coastline I know Haiti has some of the most beautiful.
It was an upmarket destination for film stars and successful social climbers.
Nobody comes here now as it ain't up to much. But it used to be - really it did. Just go to some of the hotels and look at the old photos of the visiting gliterati.
An example of this legacy is at the Ollofson Hotel where Graeme Green roomed whilst writing 'The Comedians'.
You have to agree that Greene tended like most satirists to single out human failings rather than focus on the fluffy, romantic rose tinted Mills and Boone aspects of life. Culturally, Haiti is at least as deep as the Dominican Republic - that one would be fun to argue out in another thread.
Two things destroyed the fun, culturally rich and aesthetically beautiful Haiti of a generation ago - the democratic revolution and insuing violence, and the hatchet job of the AIDS story.
Question NALs - How long after Trujillo lost his grip did The Dominican Republic really begin to flourish? - where are we in a comparative time-line as regards Haiti?
Maybe there is hope?
Another consideration is that while both countries' dictators were brutal and maniacal, the Dominican version seemed to care a bit about his country if not his people. The Haitian Dictators cared about neither.
Originally Posted by pedrochemical
Please do not breed any more as people like me have to pay taxes to send financial aid to your little country - also, being good looking and of dubious morals or being able to swing a baseball bat does not make yours a great country.
That was just plain rude. Apologies to whoever I was insulting. As a result, I was way off the mark as you pointed out NALs. But I am offended by bullshyyt sometimes and I still find the comments to which I was reacting disingenuous and shameful.
You will never get the full story about a place unless you live there for some time. The ex-pats in Haiti all like to make life sound more grievous than it actually is for a number of reasons, the two main ones being;
1) They need to justify their wages - high for an ex-pat in Haiti because of the 'danger' and 'hardship' - horseshyyt - they all live in nice apartments, go to nice French restaurants, drive around in dirty great SUV's and have hot girlfriends- they live the life of Riley!
2) Aid is an industry and a career path in Haiti - do not get me started on that one!! Too late - I am going to start another thread as soon as I have stopped boring the board with this contribution.
Generally the media will only report the bad news - I notice that also DR1 has positive stories about The Dominican Republic - nice one, it does not go unnoticed.
Haiti as a country doesn't help itself much, but Haitians have got an unfair reputation. You may ask,"what is a country if it is not the sum of its people?"
Well a country is as much its recent history as it is its people. I beleive that Haiti will eventually be palatable to all the people who are currently irrationally scared of the place.
And you go and read some facts!
True, I am a bit light on historical concensus and statistics - but these are not facts! When NALs writes a post I tend to read it and as I said in the beginning of this post NALs, I agree with a lot of what you are saying - but the verbiage of mister LoadOfBalls had to be countered.
I am not allowed to call him a retard - so I shall rephrase and call him "unenlightened."
A bit off topic and in need of a few edits - but there you go.....
Merry Christmas - pass the eggnogg....
irate:Just a little suspicious when the link is "Brought to you by the People of the DR?s Sugar Industry".
Originally Posted by NALs View Post
DR Facts
-NALs
That link is to a manifesto - propaganda.
Admittedly filmmakers have recently not let the facts get in the way of a good story, but NALs, you can do better than that!!!
DR Facts
-NALs
That link is to a manifesto - propaganda.
Admittedly filmmakers have recently not let the facts get in the way of a good story, but NALs, you can do better than that!!!