One Island, One Country.

[Vacara]

Wrong analogies

Because its the same idea, and Illegal is an Illegal. and as such they are normally a drain on the resources of what ever country it happens in. Not talking about legal immigrates. Why do you think its so hard to get visitor visa's for a Dominican to almost anywhere? Because they don't leave when they are supposed to. look at the USA, CANADA, EU. and If Dominicans were the only problem, would be ok, but when you factor in turks, mexicans, all of south america, africa,asia,etc. see the point

How can you compare illegal immigration in the richest country on this planet, with 300 millions people and only 12 millions illegal aliens to the tragedy R.D. is being subjected to?, out of the 9 millions habitants we have almost 2 millions are illegal Haitians.

USA had an unemployment rate of 4.9% in 2007, that is almost full employment. D. R. unemployment is about 17% and underemployment is very high, the two countries are worlds apart!.

Immigration has to be beneficial for both the individual and the recipient country. IA in USA keep inflation down while working in sectors natives hardly look at. In D. R. lots of Dominican used to work in construction until Haitian came and started working for almost nothing.

Dominicans immigrants are more desirable than Haitians too. Dominicans speak Spanish, second or third largest language in the world while nobody else speak Haitian creole. With the political situation in Haiti nobody has a chance to develop any skill, more than half the population don't write or read!, R.D. has plenty of educational centers and illiteracy rate is below 20%.

Finally you have the factor of Haitian culture. Dominicans until the Trujillo tyranny had identity crisis which might causes some weakness in our culture. Today we are being overrun by masses that because of all the hell they've been through they have developed a way to cope with adversity that although served them well long time ago is hurting them big time today, this people don't mix culturally with the locals, just look at the descendants of the Haitians in Cuba, almost 100 years after leaving Haiti these people still speak creole and practice voodoo, they just don't mix. That hurt them economically, slow their advancement in their new environment and hurt the rest of society as well.

 

[Vacara]

The Hatians have to reconcile with the fact that no matter what atrocities(Some) Dominicans may have committed in the past, they made a choice to enter another country with a distinct and different culture and they have to alter their views.Because they really don't have many options.

What about the atrocities committed by the Haitians?, those don't count?

 

[pedrochemical]

Vac(uous)ara - thankfully you guys do not have nor ever will have the wherewithal to develop nuclear weapons, or any credible threat really. That is what we like most about you.

 

[Vacara]

However, HERE WE CAN RESPOND TO SOMEONES POINT OF VIEW NOT REACT TO IT. The relatinship between the D.R. and Haiti IS BASICALLY A SERIES OF PROPAGANDA ISSUES. It is really a sad case of large gullible masses really being taken advantage of often to satisfy the needs and longevity of a few people.

Since you allude to those "propaganda issues" so often can you name a few as to clarify your position?

Race, color,religion, and language, are often tools use to separate people and take advantage of them.

I though that race, color, religion, and language were issues that actually divide people either directly or indirectly. I'll concede you though that they might be overused.

What Really disturbs me about the island of Hispaniola is that the two countries are divided by unsiphisticated rhetoric and events that even a semi intelligent person can decipher their original purposes. However the brainwashing and the conditionining is so strong that even the intelligent person sometimes is deeply confused let alone the illiterate.

I think you are oversimplifying the relations bet. the two countries and the events that historically have shaped that relationship. If anything our interaction has been anything but "unsophisticated".

I really like your question {what is a typical Dominican?} Which leads to how is he coping and feeling about Hatian immigration trends. Thats a tough one because there are no clear cut answers. Aside from severly brainwash hardliners, I think many people find themselves in compromising situations.

If you like the question why don't you answer it and stop beating around the bushes?

If you own a business and making profits off Cheep Hatian labor your views may be totally different from the homeowner where squatters are abusing their property. If you are a child of God and you cheerish helping people in need, your view may differ from an ambitious politicain trying to make a name for himself and replays the famous out dated " The Hatians are here to invade our country speech again "
If you travel a lot, or educated, and open mined, your views may differ from someone who is insecure, desperate, and also is willing to say anything to be accepted. The D.R. Government is the biggest compromiser of them all.

So this are the conclusions reached by someone who's not brainwashed?, where's the enlightenment?

" and to say Dominicans have no issue with the Haitian invasion is not accurate to put it mildly"

As long as individuals are willing to to invest money and time to twist historical events and exagerate events to a feverish pitch with racial overtones,of course, Some dominicans will have problems with what the Hatians did in the past.

You seem to imply that exaggeration occurs only on the Dominican side. I've seen plenty of Haitians sites that claim 50,000 people were killed in the 1937 massacre when most credible accounts go from 12,000 to as little as 6,000. That's an exaggeration on the Haitian part.

I've been approached by Haitian and black people in the state claiming that Juan Pablo Duarte was a "mercenary" who killed thousands of Haitians and stole their land. That's is propaganda and twisting of historical events.

In the early 1900's the D.R. and Haiti enjoyed a period of peace where negative rhetoric wasn't at the FORE-FRONT. Both countries had common markets along the border. They even shared a common broken language along the border towns.

Again you are guilty of mischaracterization by "oversimplifying" the situation. First both countries were occupied by American forces so what chances were there to start a war? Second; although there were no major incident Dominicans were always complaining about the constant Haitian invasions and stealing of Dominican land. When Haitians realized they couldn't take the eastern side by force they encourage pacific invasions, the border was constantly moving to the east. That was a cause of major frictions bet. the two governments and that's why when Americans left Haiti in 1934 they made sure there were a final border agreement.

The future of the island at that point could of headed in a totally differnt direction.

Thanks God it didn't or the whole island would be on welfare today.

I apoligize if I got the dates wrong because this ERA is critical and informative. I received this information from A Dominican Professor at Rutgers University. Rafael Trujillo changed that atmosphere and created a mindset through propaganda TO SATISFY HIS PERSONAL AGENDA that some people are still hanging on to today. Fortunately there is no longer a need for that type of propaganda.

Stenio Vincent though he was dealing with Horacio Vazquez when in fact he was dealing with Trujillo. He was warned, he was told in many occasions to stop Haitians penetrations. Trujillo went as far as to give him land to encourage them to stay in Haiti all to no avail. Haitians went as far as to have settlements (shanty towns) deep into Dominican territory without contact with the locals, having their own currency (gourde) and not paying taxes to the government.

Everybody have to agree that Dominicans had to put a stop to that situation, it was unsustainable but Trujillo went too far. Haitians realized too late they were dealing with a madman, a psycho and got burned in the process.

Everybody have to agree too that the Haitian government was as guilty as Trujillo for this massacre, its conduct pre and post the events enabled Trujillo not only to killed thousands of innocents people but to stay in power afterward and continue killing Dominicans and pillaging our national treasury.

Propagandas are created through conversations between a few people to protect their interest and then are distributed through resources to the masses. PROPAGANDA IS CREATED DURING A CERTAIN ERA FOR A CERTAIN PURPOSE. Hitler created his propagandas agaisnst the Jews to raise the low self-esteem of a once proud German Nation who where in deep turmoil after World War 1. The German nation as a whole in 2009 would have to be very foolish to embrace the same propaganda that propelled them to take drastic measures against the Jews in the 1930's and 1940's.

Don't fool yourself, that might happen again, just look at how the American public was bamboozled into a preemptive war without justification.

The Hatian propaganda that dictated the actions and events of the Hatian military machine of the late 1700's and early 1800's are as old as the American Revolution and man that was a long long long long long time ago.
I think the average person without any SEVERE BRAIN WASHING does not give a damn about what happened two hundred years ago or one hundred years ago . Especially the youth!!!!!!!!!

Here you got me lost with the Haitian propaganda stuff but one quick point; If you think that only people with "severe brain washing" give a damn about what happened 200 years ago then you should check a neurosurgeon.

I don't even think they care or know where Haiti is. They have other things on their minds.

If this is your limus test for not being brainwashed then I rather fail. Any Dominican who doesn't know or care where Haiti is located is an idiot.

IT ONLY BECOMES A PROBLEM WHEN THEY ARE FED NEGATIVE AND DANGEROUS RHETORIC OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN - TO HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE!!!!!

Here you go again, there's hate only on the Dominican side, yeah right.

 

[Vacara]

What about Dessalina?

Vac(uous)ara - thankfully you guys do not have nor ever will have the wherewithal to develop nuclear weapons, or any credible threat really. That is what we like most about you.

Thankfully your precious girl "Dessalina" didn't have the means to kill all Dominicans or else the whole island would be on "international welfare" today, oh but I forgot, maybe he would have killed all Haitians first cuz in one campaign alone while fighting for Toussaint he killed 10,000 of your nationals. If Dessalina got the "bomb" maybe the whole island would be "La Tierra Que Mas Amo Colon".

 

[Vacara]

Really?

Germany and Japan were doing OK there for a couple of decades.
They suck a bit now though - economically.
Would you really want to live in a 'civilized' country like these again?

I have another ill-thought-out, crass and probably wrong theory of what could be going on with some countries having the wherewithal to get stuff done and some countries not.
This applies to The Dominican Republic as it does any other country with a 'manana' attitude.
It goes like this.

Whilst Europeans who live in temperate climates need to think a few months ahead to survive - planting, sowing, reaping, harvesting, collecting wood, building, preparing, storing - peoples in lush Tropical climates with endless water, fruits, rice, plantains, mangoes and coconuts etc do not.
The best strategy in a place like The Dominican republic is to snooze under that mango tree in the heat of the day as there will be bananas in January as there will be in June.
In Europe that would result in starvation and death within a year.
This has led to Europeans being industrious and Tropical peoples being more ' relaxed'.
Hence the frustration of the European whho is trying to get something done - because they feel they need to - when confronted with the islander who sees this as craziness.
Dogs and Englishmen out in the midday sun etc.

This also expresses itself in the tendency of Dominicans not to plan past today - or at best tomorrow. Example - if you ask a moto-concho what he would prefer 1) 1000 pesos now or 2) 100 pesos per day for a month - he will take the 1000 every time.
(This is not a poor, starving moto-concho by the way.)

The comical result is Europeans who get frustrated with Islanders for being lazy or thoughtless - when this relaxed attitude is exactly why they emigrated here - to escape the treadmill that is life for most people in 'developed' countries.

Cheap and nasty theory, perhaps, but I think it could help to explain many things on this island.

How does this explain then white Argentinians, living in a tough environment not being able to pull their country ahead?, and what about Arab people? who live in a tougher environment than Europeans and still seem incapable of planning for tomorrow.

 

[Vacara]

The fish

I agree with you Pedrochemical. I have never understood the mentality expressed by bachata. It makes no sense to me. But that's just me.

And on the subject of cliches: Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.



Mr. Lu

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for one day, give a man religion and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

 

[Vacara]

It happens

To tell you the truth most Americans will not go clean toilets or pick crops no matter how much money you offer them.

I personally have been in many places and gotten to known many people and i am yet to see or hear of an american losing a job to an illegal alien.

It is a fact that most of the people that complain about illegal aliens taking their jobs are your average against aliens lazy white trailer trash that use this as the perfect excuse not to get off their arses and welfare to go to work. Their mentality against mexicans will never change, and to tell you the truth the government is somewhat responsible for all the lazy people that are on welfare. They would ask you why would they go to a job and bring home 1,000 to 1,200 after taxes and have to pay for food, rent and medicare when they can get all that for free without lifting up a finger.

I've seen in Long Island plenty of teenagers doing work that are done by illegals aliens in NYC (working in pizzerias, restaurants, lawn mowing etc), that allows then to get the money to go to movies and hang out. So yes, IA take away some jobs that locals might do but not many.

 

[IslandDreaming]

You know what! The only death penalty possible in the DR is under the military tribunal... A court martial...

...

I don't know Dominican Military Law, but a Courts Martial is not even similar to a Military Tribunal, but then you knew that didn't you?

 

[Chirimoya]

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for one day, give a man religion and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

Added to my favourite quotations!

 

[pedrochemical]

How does this explain then white Argentinians, living in a tough environment not being able to pull their country ahead?, and what about Arab people? who live in a tougher environment than Europeans and still seem incapable of planning for tomorrow.

I was being a little facetious here - I often uses what some feel is humour to illustrate a point and I was not being entirely serious.
Argentinians are pretty together people in my experience - as are Arabs. They certainly seem to have a lot of the world by the short and curlies at the moment!


What about Dessalina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedrochemical View Post
Vac(uous)ara - thankfully you guys do not have nor ever will have the wherewithal to develop nuclear weapons, or any credible threat really. That is what we like most about you.
Thankfully your precious girl "Dessalina" didn't have the means to kill all Dominicans or else the whole island would be on "international welfare" today, oh but I forgot, maybe he would have killed all Haitians first cuz in one campaign alone while fighting for Toussaint he killed 10,000 of your nationals. If Dessalina got the "bomb" maybe the whole island would be "La Tierra Que Mas Amo Colon".


This little rant shows that you are trying to look at the issues from the point of view of a 19th Century colonial settler. Not very helpful, though it does explain your child like "you guys started it" stance.
Who actually gives a rat's ass what one maniacal power obsessed lunatic did 200 years ago or what some diminutive race obsessed dictator did 100 years later? All successful revolutionary military leaders tended to be a bit blood thirsty - that was their job. That is how you beat the opposition in those days - by chopping them to bits. It was a brutal world. It still is in many ways.
It is truly hilarious to try and appear personally offended by a massacre that happened nearly a couple of hundred years ago.

Does Troy still bother you? What the about the French invasion of England in 1066? Should I not buy Japanese cars after what they did to the Chinese in WW2? Or American cars after what they did to Japan a couple of years later?
If Dessalines had the bomb??
LMAO.
You are too funny, dude.

I do not remember the Haitians massacring too many Dominicans in recent years. You make it sound like they do it regularly.

 

[Vacara]

History of Rat's Asses

I was being a little facetious here - I often uses what some feel is humour to illustrate a point and I was not being entirely serious.
Argentinians are pretty together people in my experience - as are Arabs. They certainly seem to have a lot of the world by the short and curlies at the moment!

That's not called "planning", that is called having the oil and artificially keeping the prices way up there. Let's see when the oil is finished how their future planning will work.

This little rant shows that you are trying to look at the issues from the point of view of a 19th Century colonial settler. Not very helpful, though it does explain your child like "you guys started it" stance.
Who actually gives a rat's ass what one maniacal power obsessed lunatic did 200 years ago or what some diminutive race obsessed dictator did 100 years later?

Let's see who give a rat's ass: Jacinto Ginbernard, Michele Wucker, Frank Moya Pond, Valentina Peguero, Orlando Inoa, Mu Kien Adriana Sang Ben, Jose Miguel Soto Jimenez, Jose Chez Checo, Jane Ramirez, Juan Daniel Jimenez, Roberto Cassa, Zuzy Castor, alan Cambeira, Fernando Perez Memen, Bernardo Vega, Marion A. Kaplan, G. Pope Atkins, Euclides Gutierrez Felix, David Werlich, Franklin Franco Pichardo, Rafael Bello Peguero, Hugo Tolentino Dipp, Rafael Bello Peguero, Mats Lundahl, Emilio Cordero Michel, Julia Alvarez, Pedro Luis San Miguel, Richard Lee Turits, Christian Krohn-Hansen, Lawrence A. Clayton, Eric Roorda, Emilio Betances, should I keep on embarrassing you or you think is enough?.

All successful revolutionary military leaders tended to be a bit blood thirsty - that was their job. That is how you beat the opposition in those days - by chopping them to bits. It was a brutal world. It still is in many ways.

So because of this we should not study history, nor analyze it nor study its impact or relation with recent events, not even mention it in a forum where we comment on the two countries that were involved in those events?, it's that what you suggest?.

It is truly hilarious to try and appear personally offended by a massacre that happened nearly a couple of hundred years ago.

What is truly hilarious is the effort made by haitians apologist to try make us forget all the atrocities committed by its leaders and people while at the same time keep on bringing the massacre committed by Trujillo (and covered by the Haitian government).

Those massacres -you allude to- don't bother me on a personal level, what bothers me is the attitude of the Haitian people of having in Dessalines a guy deserving of its admiration in spite of all the crimes he committed. Here you have a guy who killed thousands of Haitians, thousands of french and thousands of Dominicans, a guy who betrayed and delivered Toussaint to the french and that by opposing his economic policies (Toussaint's) of compromising with the French colonist set the stage for the disastrous conditions Haiti is in today.

In spite of all that, Haitians slap everybody in the face by naming its national anthem "Le Dessaline" and filling the net with poetry dedicated to this degenerated.

 

[pedrochemical]

I still think you would do yourself a favour if you chilled out a bit and understood that whatever happened is not going to be affected by you spouting your one-sided garbled nonsense.
You seem angry about a bunch of people who died long ago - what point are you trying to get across? That you are scared it is going to happen again?
I do not see a great threat from Haitians wanting to massacre Dominicans. It just isn't going to happen - so you have to drag up a bunch of old crap.

What in a nutshell is your point? What are you scared of exactly?
Are you scared that you are going to get massacred again?

And you only seem to be embarrassing yourself.
Perhaps you should post in the 'other' Dominican forum where all the jingoistic narrow minded fools hurl abuse at each other?

People play nice here.

 

[Vacara]

I still think you would do yourself a favour if you chilled out a bit and understood that whatever happened is not going to be affected by you spouting your one-sided garbled nonsense.
You seem angry about a bunch of people who died long ago - what point are you trying to get across? That you are scared it is going to happen again?
I do not see a great threat from Haitians wanting to massacre Dominicans. It just isn't going to happen - so you have to drag up a bunch of old crap.

Sorry for coming across as a hater, my Lakers've been having a hard time with the Rockets and that got me a little nervous. I'm a sweet guy you know, I'm so sweet my doctor thinks I'm a diabetic, so sweet I have to stop girls from licking me in the subway station so bear that in mind when you read my posts.

What in a nutshell is your point? What are you scared of exactly?
Are you scared that you are going to get massacred again?

In your previous post you said there's no way we could have another massacre in Santo Domingo island, I wonder how you've come to that conclusion?, what is your basis for saying such a silly statement?

The way you talk is as the Trujillo's massacre was the last one to happen and we've not seen such a thing since. As if the killing of 1,000,000 people in Rwanda didn't happen a mere 15 years ago, or the killing of thousands in Kosovo until 1997. Ever heard the words "shias" or "sunnis"?, at the very moment I write this lines people are being killed by the hundreds in Sudan, Tamil, Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, etc. Can you tell me without using moronic words what make you so certain something like this -though in a smaller scale- can not happens in our island.

I'll go out on a limp; no only I think it is probable we'll have a minor ethnic cleansing in Dom. Rep., but it is very possible. Conditions are set, economy is very bad and people in low levels might feel pushed into a corner by waves of Haitians who don't see any other way out.

And you only seem to be embarrassing yourself.
Perhaps you should post in the 'other' Dominican forum where all the jingoistic narrow minded fools hurl abuse at each other?

I think what got you mad was my comparison of Dessalines to a girl, since I didn't read the posting rule I guess I missed the line that says Dessali-gula is off limit to criticism, but I'll take notice.

People play nice here.

This is the first thread I read in this forum and in its 44 pages nobody called anybody names until you called me "vac -cuous- ra, but in your humble opinion I'm the one who need to chill out and stop embarrassing myself. You certainly have a strange way of playing nice.

By the way, regarding your invitation to go to "another Dominican" forum to hurl insults, only Dominicans do that or can you suggest some Haitian sites?

 

[pedrochemical]

The massacre will not happen in Haiti as there are forces here to stop that kind of thing - and there are not that many Dominicans in Haiti to massacre.
Dominicans are reasonable people, these days, and will not wholesale massacre Haitians.
There are no religious tensions.
There are no serious land disputes. (the ones there are do not concern major resources or cities, although let us see how the mining companies progress along the border)
Generally these ethnic cleansings happen where there is no government or there is a civil war, or worse still when there is a tyrannical government. This is not the case in the D.R.

I think a few super nationalist Dominicans might cut the heads off a few more criminal Haitians - that is about it.
I also think the notion of 'minor ethnic cleansing' is flawed. People tend to attempt it wholesale or not at all. Racists in the Dominican Republic will beat Haitians - this is very sad. They would not have the balls (or the support) to actually attempt to 'cleanse' the whole nation.

The D.R. is not at war with Haiti.
The D.R. has too much to lose internationally and too little to gain locally from a sustained campaign against expat Haitians. It would never get going and it would be stopped by a D.R. government seemingly more concerned with international opinion than Dominican opinion. That is where the big bucks are.

As for Dessalines, this was the guy who took the French flag, symbolically ripped out the white section, and created the Haitian flag.
He said he would write the constitution of the new country using white man's blood for ink, white man's skin for parchment and the skull of a white man for an inkwell - not my favourite person by a long chalk.
If Dessalines came on this board spouting things like that I would probably have a thing or two to say to him as well.
I know whites can be a totally savage sometimes and tend to oppress other races they come into contact with, but they are alright basically these days- heck I grew up with them!! So his ranting would be out of place.
So is ranting that Haitians or Dominicans are about to go to war.

Just ain't so.

And yes, you probably are a sweet guy - beleive it or not so was I before I had it knocked out of me by living, working and making money on both sides of this island.

As you seem to appreciate, a sense of humour is always vital here.

 

[catcherintherye]

Betwixt and between all the banter and bickering happening here, there is actually a good amount of decent discussion, and some very interesting history being presented.

Perhaps we wouldn't have gotten all that good information without the acrimony, and I admit that a lively and spirited debate is always fun to observe from the sidelines.

However, regrettably, what I have witnessed here is two intelligent and informed guys, who have more in common then either would probably care to admit, going at each other talon and fang, each convinced of their own 'correctness' and the other's certain recalcitrance.

The fact is, in a more reasoned and civil dialog, each would be much more effective, and they would probably end up being very good friends, sharing a few beers, and with similar agendas to boot.

Maybe it is due to the age we live in, and the examples set forth by our so-called leaders, but it seems that the noble act of sharing ideas is greatly compromised by the overwhelming desire to turn such an enterprise into yet another a war of ideas, where the issues are less important than being declared the "winner" of a fabricated verbal battle between two subjectively "right or wrong" ideologies.

It is a shame such talent is wasted.

 

[bachata]

I think this thread should be closed as theses poster are not helping any body with this discussion.

JJ

 

[? bient?t]

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for one day, give a man religion and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

Q.O.T.Y. Award. I likes.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Betwixt and between all the banter and bickering happening here, there is actually a good amount of decent discussion, and some very interesting history being presented.

Perhaps we wouldn't have gotten all that good information without the acrimony, and I admit that a lively and spirited debate is always fun to observe from the sidelines.

However, regrettably, what I have witnessed here is two intelligent and informed guys, who have more in common then either would probably care to admit, going at each other talon and fang, each convinced of their own 'correctness' and the other's certain recalcitrance.

The fact is, in a more reasoned and civil dialog, each would be much more effective, and they would probably end up being very good friends, sharing a few beers, and with similar agendas to boot.

Maybe it is due to the age we live in, and the examples set forth by our so-called leaders, but it seems that the noble act of sharing ideas is greatly compromised by the overwhelming desire to turn such an enterprise into yet another a war of ideas, where the issues are less important than being declared the "winner" of a fabricated verbal battle between two subjectively "right or wrong" ideologies.

It is a shame such talent is wasted.

........what about your opinion on the unification of the island.

 

[catcherintherye]

......what about your opinion on the unification of the island. A.Hidalgo

Ummm, what about it? While I have no definitive answer, I posted several opinions/observations earlier in this thread. Please refer to post numbers 160, 169, 175, 185, 192, 197, 224, 226, 228, 236, 239, 256, 288, etc.

As I implied in those posts, it is a complex situation with no easy answers. I wish there were, but there are so many diverse and strongly held positions, I doubt any consensus is in the cards any time soon.

But I'm not sure that was the answer you were searching for. It seems you have an axe to grind for some reason, since the two of us have been through similar discussions before. If it will make you happy, I will take a strong, unwavering position, and blindly defend it. That would make it so much easier to create a senseless and fruitless argument.

Which position would you like me to take?