57% of Dominicans live in poverty

[greydread]

interesting...

Can't guess anything right, can you? It sure sounds funny when you hear the defense from the point of view of a person who doesn't live here full time or only lives in resort area. Absolutely no idea.
lets see how I compare to a full time chiropractor in usa (forget part time) oh and feel free to compare me to yourself also.
With the pesos I make in DR, I have traveled so much in the world that I needed new pages on my passport because there was no more space to stamp my passport. My passport is only 3 yrs old. I go to usa every month and spend money in dollars. I will be in NY tomorrow. next month, I will be in frankfurt germany and then to swiss alps and then to milan, italy (all in one trip, by car). later this year I will be in far east. My full time chiro friends in USA who make thousands of dollars can't even afford to take a week's vacation and come to visit me. let me remind you, the dominicans who work in respectable places in capital, make more money than you and the people you are impressed with. You are confusing me for your local colmado owner on the corner of your street.
please, stop playing the race card and forget the slavery BS, obama is the president now so your slavery BS doesn't hold water. Al sharpton is out of work so your argument has zero value.
The people who are always struggling are most probably lazy and lack ideas to better their lives. I try to help people in my clinic in how to do promotions (free) they just won't get up and do it. They are quite happy with what they make and struggle to make ends meet. This is their lifestyle. How many times I have told people that they can't talk like ghetto with elegant clients; no "L' pronunciation but they forget all this in 1 minute. "senol", peldon, coltar, palquear etc". they just don't have it in them. But of course you will argue that I am being racist and being arrogant. The point is, you just hate the messenger (AZB) , you refuse to hear what I have to say. unlike you, I live here 24/7 and have been dealing with all classes of dominicans since 1998.
AZB

It's funny how defense of suspicions about one's position tends to reaffirm the suspicion.

I'm going to leave the "Obama" and "Sharpton" references alone. They speak for themselves. The "slavery" reference also doesn't apply but it led to an interesting point. Many expatriots in the Dominican Republic do appear to become hardened against their hosts and tend to regard the general populace with the same affectionate superiority with which landowners in the States regard sharecroppers. That's not a race thing. It's an indicator of a personal need to be surrounded by those who are regarded as "inferior" in order to somehow become "superior". I have a very good friend (who is Caucasian) who primarily dates Asians and Latinas from El Salvador, explaining "because they're my height" (he's 5'4").

This observation is not specific to or limited to you and I'm not trying to s#!t in your mess gear but I have heard many similar comments to yours which place the blame for Dominican poverty suarely on the shoulders of those poor Dominicans who never had an equal footing or a fighting chance thanks to the selfishness of their more blessed fellow Dominicans.

6% of the population controls 1/3 of the nations wealth. They deny the 57% of impoverished Dominicans a chance for a quality education so that they can keep them underfoot and have them do their bidding. I'd like to see the statistics of how much of the assets of that well educated and well fed 6% are inherited vs. how much is earned.

Nope, I hope more and more of that 57% escape to Miami, Altanta, Boston and Nueva Yol and get their children the educational benefits that they'd never have in their homeland so that they can return to the DR in a generation with the grandchildren to claim what should have been theirs all along...an equal stake in their country's wealth, present and future.

 

[DRob]

It's funny how defense of suspicions about one's position tends to reaffirm the suspicion.

I'm going to leave the "Obama" and "Sharpton" references alone. They speak for themselves. The "slavery" reference also doesn't apply but it led to an interesting point. Many expatriots in the Dominican Republic do appear to become hardened against their hosts and tend to regard the general populace with the same affectionate superiority with which landowners in the States regard sharecroppers. That's not a race thing. It's an indicator of a personal need to be surrounded by those who are regarded as "inferior" in order to somehow become "superior". I have a very good friend (who is Caucasian) who primarily dates Asians and Latinas from El Salvador, explaining "because they're my height" (he's 5'4").

This observation is not specific to or limited to you and I'm not trying to s#!t in your mess gear but I have heard many similar comments to yours which place the blame for Dominican poverty suarely on the shoulders of those poor Dominicans who never had an equal footing or a fighting chance thanks to the selfishness of their more blessed fellow Dominicans.

6% of the population controls 1/3 of the nations wealth. They deny the 57% of impoverished Dominicans a chance for a quality education so that they can keep them underfoot and have them do their bidding. I'd like to see the statistics of how much of the assets of that well educated and well fed 6% are inherited vs. how much is earned.

Nope, I hope more and more of that 57% escape to Miami, Altanta, Boston and Nueva Yol and get their children the educational benefits that they'd never have in their homeland so that they can return to the DR in a generation with the grandchildren to claim what should have been theirs all along...an equal stake in their country's wealth, present and future.

I was just about to respond to AZB's tripe, when you went off and did it so much more eloquently.

Well said. :glasses:

 

[Lando calrisian]

Suarezn, when he told me how much he made, my jaw dropped! Then he asked me y tu mama no te da regalos? I Lando, give my mom regalos, (flowers, a dinner, some money here and there)! Hey if his mom and dad got his back so be it, he's gonna get their money anyway. So what is the difference between now or later?

 

[bob saunders]

6% of the population controls 1/3 of the nations wealth. They deny the 57% of impoverished Dominicans a chance for a quality education so that they can keep them underfoot and have them do their bidding. I'd like to see the statistics of how much of the assets of that well educated and well fed 6% are inherited vs. how much is earned.

QUOTE]

How does this 6% deny the 57% impoverished from a quality education. I'm not saying you are wrong I'm just wondering how they do it. You see I see most politicians as not coming from that 6%, SO just how are these 6% doing it. They do not set the education budget, nor the education policy. I see Dominican in general becoming nmore aware due to internet and improved education. Do they have a long ways to go, sure, but I don't think the top 6% are what holding them back.

 

[AZB]

6% of the population controls 1/3 of the nations wealth. They deny the 57% of impoverished Dominicans a chance for a quality education so that they can keep them underfoot and have them do their bidding. I'd like to see the statistics of how much of the assets of that well educated and well fed 6% are inherited vs. how much is earned.

There should be a law against people posting misinformation anywhere. Please tell me, how is it possible for anyone in this country to not let them advance in life? For your information, there are thousands and thousands of dominicans who have acquired, wealth, success and respect in this country through true conscientious efforts, education, and dedication, not to mention, through smart investments and good work ethics. Many successful business people in DR actually come from very poor background yet with the proper mindset they have made it in this country and now share the respect of everyone around them. Look at the germans who came here during ww2 in sosua, I don't see anyone of the Jewish folks living in barrios. I don't know of a single dominican name goldberg living in a shack. The arabs came here 100 yrs ago with little or nothing and yet the majority of them are well known rich families here who control many facets of dominican political and economical aspects of this society.
You have many people who are well known personalities in santiago who actually come from poor campos.
These people are not the ones who had decided to sit around play dominos, they got up and went to work and worked on their dreams. This is why many pakistani and indian families come to USA with little or zero in pocket, no american education and zero knowledge of american work habits. Yet when they are here 15 yrs, they are already well situated among the middle to upper middle to rich category. Why is that possible for them and yet its not too possible for others?
Let me play your racial card here Drob: we are constantly asked this question in USA. Why is it that immigrants always excel in life in usa and make it to the top yet the blacks who have enjoyed the freedom under the shadow of statue of liberty for so many years with free education etc are still living in ghettos and slums of USA? example: Katrina disaster in new orleans. Who were the helpless victims there? almost 98% blacks. Why is that Drob? Oh wait, you will give me a lesson on 500 yrs old slavery practices. Nice try but remember, al sharpton is out of work these days. No mention of him anywhere in the media.
Long live obama.
AZB

 

[porkman100]

AZB, the reference that DRob made "extreme poverty allows easy access to women half your age " is not a fair one. We, that love D.R. have many other reasons. I try to make it in the D.R. way back in the 70's but could not make it. But many old cubanos like myself did. Not so much successes with the new crop of cubanos , even though many have medical degrees.
Even way back then I observed large groups of wealthy Dominicans all over this Island. It seems that to a great degree children follow the life style and steps of their parents.

 

[corsair74]

Let me play your racial card here Drob: we are constantly asked this question in USA. Why is it that immigrants always excel in life in usa and make it to the top yet the blacks who have enjoyed the freedom under the shadow of statue of liberty for so many years with free education etc are still living in ghettos and slums of USA? example: Katrina disaster in new orleans. Who were the helpless victims there? almost 98% blacks. Why is that Drob? Oh wait, you will give me a lesson on 500 yrs old slavery practices. Nice try but remember, al sharpton is out of work these days. No mention of him anywhere in the media.
Long live obama.
AZB

First of all, let me say that this is a fascinating discussion. I find it so interesting that I decided to post again after months of inactivity.

But I'm having a little trouble figuring out the point you're trying to make with the above statement AZB. The flooding that was a result of the hurricane affected some neighborhoods more than others because of where they were. Some parts of New Orleans are much lower beneath sea level than others. So when the levees failed, those neighborhoods flooded much worse than others. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were ghettos, or their racial make-up. Add the fact that New Orleans has one of the largest african american populations per capita in the U.S. And there's absolutely no mystery why the victims were overwhelmingly african american. And most of those people lost everything they owned. So they weren't just pretending to be "helpless victims".

And your statement about immigrants, grossly broad and inaccurate. I've done a lot of work with immigrant populations throughout the years. And I gotta tell you, they aren't all excelling here in the states. While certain segments do take advantage of the opportunities provided here to make good lives for themselves. Just as many, if not more, are living beneath the poverty line and barely making it.

I think that both Drob and AZB both have made some valid points. But I think that the issue of race has very little merit in this particular discussion. I mean, comparing the immigrant population to the african american one is ridiculous. The two populations have different societal issues. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Lambada]

Every country in the world has inhabitants who are hard working and inhabitants who are lazy and the DR is no exception. However, there are institutional factors which keep people in poverty, and these will vary country to country. They could be historical, demographic, cultural - a whole host of reasons.

In the DR it is very difficult to break out of the cycle of poverty partly because of lack of decent, affordable educational opportunities and partly because of the glaring social stratification. There are a few that do, through huge efforts on their own part. The remainder either attempt the yola crossing, try to become a sports hero, enter the drug trade or politics, grab a gringo or do what the majority do & stay as they are.

Yes there have been 'advances' in the nearly 18 years I've been living here, but the gap or rather chasm between rich & poor is widening, not decreasing. The UNDP has made it very clear that the political economy of the DR achieves two functions: it increases wealth while at the same time widening the gulf. I won't guess at why because that will produce different explanations depending on political ideology held. But I think the examination of institutional reasons is a lot more fruitful than blaming the individual. It is much, much more complex than that.

 

[RacerX]

It's funny how defense of suspicions about one's position tends to reaffirm the suspicion.
Many expatriots in the Dominican Republic do appear to become hardened against their hosts and tend to regard the general populace with the same affectionate superiority with which landowners in the States regard sharecroppers. That's not a race thing. It's an indicator of a personal need to be surrounded by those who are regarded as "inferior" in order to somehow become "superior". (he's 5'4").

This observation is not specific to or limited to you and I'm not trying to s#!t in your mess gear but I have heard many similar comments to yours which place the blame for Dominican poverty suarely on the shoulders of those poor Dominicans who never had an equal footing or a fighting chance thanks to the selfishness of their more blessed fellow Dominicans.
6% of the population controls 1/3 of the nations wealth. They deny the 57% of impoverished Dominicans a chance for a quality education so that they can keep them underfoot and have them do their bidding. I'd like to see the statistics of how much of the assets of that well educated and well fed 6% are inherited vs. how much is earned.

Nope, I hope more and more of that 57% escape to Miami, Altanta, Boston and Nueva Yol and get their children the educational benefits that they'd never have in their homeland so that they can return to the DR in a generation with the grandchildren to claim what should have been theirs all along...an equal stake in their country's wealth, present and future.

So maybe we can stop with the allusion that the people here who have money got it from hard work rather than working a system of inequality based on physical appearance hard. "They have had money for generations" Likie there wasnt trickery and complicit corruption involved all the while.


I think all 15 pages of this nonsense has blurred the line between 1. poor but composed people and; 2. unambitious and therefore poor people. The only people I have a grievance against are those who arent prepared for anything. The guy who gave the example of the women with the hot dog cart. The women failed more from not having a poor mindset, but from stupidity. I get that alot. There is a deficiency in independent thought here. All of this is from the educational system and those fake religious institutions full of homosexuals and pimps. You hear things from grown adult that only make sense coming from the mouths of children.


AZB, bro you re my #1, but you shiit the bed in that last post. You re starting to sound phony, like some dude who always name drops at parties or something. If you living the good life, no need to rub anyones nose in it.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." comes from Shakespeare's Hamlet, Act III, scene II. The phrase has come to mean that one can "insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what one is saying."

 

[cobraboy]

But I think the examination of institutional reasons is a lot more fruitful than blaming the individual. It is much, much more complex than that.

I have yet to see an institution make a kid get up to go to school.

I have yet to see an institution make a kid pay attention in class.

I have yet to see an institution make a kid do his homework or crack a book.

I have yet to see an institution force honesty or integrity on a kid.

I have yet to see an institution make a kid show up to work on time.

I could go on and on...

Whenever I hear "the problems are complex" I immediately think some do-gooder institution is making excuses for individual failure.

I deal with many, many Dominicans every day. And the ones I know that are successful didn't get that way because of daddy's money or a silver spoon. They got that way by applying themselves to the simple things, the things we ALL control: the effective management of their time over many, many years.

It all comes down to choices, the most important being: Just how badly do you want it?

Not everyone will succced. But everyone should TRY. Making excuses for an entire group of people only makes accepting failure that much easier.

"It's not my fault. It's the other guy's..."

 

[greydread]

There should be a law against people posting misinformation anywhere.

If there was, you'd already be in jail.

Please tell me, how is it possible for anyone in this country to not let them advance in life?

Easy. It's called the "Golden Rule". He who has the GOLD makes the RULES.

Let me play your racial card here Drob: we are constantly asked this question in USA. Why is it that immigrants always excel in life in usa and make it to the top yet the blacks who have enjoyed the freedom under the shadow of statue of liberty for so many years with free education etc are still living in ghettos and slums of USA?

This has nothing to do with the Dominican Republic but it says volumes about you and your opinions. Wow! You live a very sheltered life. A very sheltered fantasy life. You played a "racial card" for sure but it doesn't belong to DRob.

............... example: Katrina disaster in new orleans. Who were the helpless victims there? almost 98% blacks. Why is that Drob? Oh wait, you will give me a lesson on 500 yrs old slavery practices. Nice try but remember, al sharpton is out of work these days. No mention of him anywhere in the media.

Long live obama.

WTF??

Well, I guess it was time to take the hood off and wash that kerosene smell out of your robe.

 

[greydread]

I have...

I have yet to see an institution make a kid get up to go to school.

I have yet to see an institution make a kid pay attention in class.

I have yet to see an institution make a kid do his homework or crack a book.

I have yet to see an institution force honesty or integrity on a kid.

I have yet to see an institution make a kid show up to work on time.

I could go on and on...

Whenever I hear "the problems are complex" I immediately think some do-gooder institution is making excuses for individual failure.

I deal with many, many Dominicans every day. And the ones I know that are successful didn't get that way because of daddy's money or a silver spoon. They got that way by applying themselves to the simple things, the things we ALL control: the effective management of their time over many, many years.

It all comes down to choices, the most important being: Just how badly do you want it?

Not everyone will succced. But everyone should TRY. Making excuses for an entire group of people only makes accepting failure that much easier.

"It's not my fault. It's the other guy's..."

I've seen examples of charter schools all over the inner cities of the US INSPIRE "at risk" kids to superior performance. There are many examples of this. Institutions cannot force success but they can enable success. This is not an exclusively American phenomenon. It can be used as a template for an equivalent Dominican phenomenon. It's when we throw our hands in the air and give up hope for any group of people, be they divided by race or nationality or class or income that we fail to live up to our own collective potential.

I agree that ultimately it's the individual's actions that will determine their success or failure but it is just as important to the society at large to ensure that all of its individuals are afforded opportunities to succeed, if so motivated.

 

[AZB]

AZB, bro you re my #1, but you shiit the bed in that last post. You re starting to sound phony, like some dude who always name drops at parties or something. If you living the good life, no need to rub anyones nose in it.

hey brother, this was not my idea at all. Drob tried to discredit by labeling me a loser by saying that a "part time chiro in usa makes more than I do in DR...." . First he plays the racial card, then he attacks my profession. Typical example of hating the messenger.
I had to let him know he is mistaken and not all the chiros like myself are stray dogs who failed in usa to come and work in DR. Not true. I live better here than many professional do in USA. In the end, I come ahead more than many folks who make more money than I do. Its all about quality of life and what kind of luxury you can buy with the money you earn anywhere.
AZB.

 

[AZB]

First of all, let me say that this is a fascinating discussion. I find it so interesting that I decided to post again after months of inactivity.

But I'm having a little trouble figuring out the point you're trying to make with the above statement AZB. The flooding that was a result of the hurricane affected some neighborhoods more than others because of where they were. Some parts of New Orleans are much lower beneath sea level than others. So when the levees failed, those neighborhoods flooded much worse than others. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were ghettos, or their racial make-up. Add the fact that New Orleans has one of the largest african american populations per capita in the U.S. And there's absolutely no mystery why the victims were overwhelmingly african american. And most of those people lost everything they owned. So they weren't just pretending to be "helpless victims".

And your statement about immigrants, grossly broad and inaccurate. I've done a lot of work with immigrant populations throughout the years. And I gotta tell you, they aren't all excelling here in the states. While certain segments do take advantage of the opportunities provided here to make good lives for themselves. Just as many, if not more, are living beneath the poverty line and barely making it.

I think that both Drob and AZB both have made some valid points. But I think that the issue of race has very little merit in this particular discussion. I mean, comparing the immigrant population to the african american one is ridiculous. The two populations have different societal issues. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

First of all, I am not talking about all immigrants, I was strictly speaking of pakistanis and indians. Give them 15 yrs in usa and they will become your boss. This is true so please don't change my words and add the general term "immigrants".

New orleans, I didn't know the whole population of new orleans was only african americans. The area which were flooded, I happened to have traveled there more than once and let me clarify this, its not 100% blacks.
It so happens, the whites were able to escape the disaster, even the mexicans did, but somehow who got left behind to become the victims? The lazy ass people who had no plan B and were too lazy to take any preventive measures. Even the trailer trash white folks were trapped there. So there you have it.
I don't need to add more.
AZB

 

[Lambada]

but it is just as important to the society at large to ensure that all of its individuals are afforded opportunities to succeed, if so motivated.

AND that that society doesn't put obstacles in the way, either deliberately or accidentally.

 

[corsair74]

First of all, I am not talking about all immigrants, I was strictly speaking of pakistanis and indians. Give them 15 yrs in usa and they will become your boss. This is true so please don't change my words and add the general term "immigrants".

New orleans, I didn't know the whole population of new orleans was only african americans. The area which were flooded, I happened to have traveled there more than once and let me clarify this, its not 100% blacks.
It so happens, the whites were able to escape the disaster, even the mexicans did, but somehow who got left behind to become the victims? The lazy ass people who had no plan B and were too lazy to take any preventive measures. Even the trailer trash white folks were trapped there. So there you have it.
I don't need to add more.
AZB

Change your words? If you look back at my post, all I did was quote your post exactly. You might have meant "pakistanis and indians", but you used the term "immigrants". Your words, not mine. But it matters not. It's still a grossly broad and inaccurate statement. One that I doubt that you could support with actual numbers. Yes, a lot of Pakistani and Indian immigrants come to the US and do well. Especially since a large number are already quite educated when they get here. But not all Pakistani and Indian immigrants are so fortunate. Therefore, for you to say that all who come to the states end up being successful, (and before you try and backtrack, you did use the term "all") is a very broad and unsupportable statement.

As far as Katrina is concerned, you're the one who said that 98% of the victims were black. Do you always spout statistics that you can't support? Katrina's victims represented a number of races. But it is a know fact that the majority of the flooding damage in the actual city of New Orleans was in certain wards where the majority of the population is black. And a lot those people stayed on their property because they were used to riding out storms, and their homes were all they had. Stubborn, absolutely. But to say they suffered because they were too lazy to take precautions is just stupid. And it shows how very little you know about the situation. The entire city, along with the federal government, failed to take precautions. You may have traveled there, but you didn't learn anything.

 

[dv8]

6% of the population controls 1/3 of the nations wealth. They deny the 57% of impoverished Dominicans a chance for a quality education so that they can keep them underfoot and have them do their bidding. I'd like to see the statistics of how much of the assets of that well educated and well fed 6% are inherited vs. how much is earned.

oh no, no. rich do not deny the poor a chance for quality education. the poor deny it themselves. ask anyone in a barrio who gets more respect, someone who says "i have a big jeepeta" or someone who says "i have a phd"? no, my fellow, the poor do no value education at all and they would not "waste" their time on getting any degree even if it was completely free of charge. this is very sad because it is ultimately the education that allows personal and professional growth.
yet still many large companies in this country and many rich families offer grants or lead charities that allow poor folks access to universities. miesposo mentioned that he was in PUCIMM with some people who got their degree because of private sponsors.
i have a girlfriend who comes from the campo, she got pregnant at 16 and started working at 17. it has been several years and she managed to build a small house in the campo (with some help of her family), she bought a car (small, japanese), she finished university and she now works as an accountant, all through hard work and determination. she is now very proud because her daughter got the first place in a reading contest at school and she is putting all efforts to give her kid a good education so she can progress even further.
i do not quite get the argument about inheriting money. what is wrong with that? this money has been made at some point, within few generations, it did not drop from the sky like manna...

 

[ExtremeR]

Wow that guy really knows how to stretch his money. 800 USD, drives a Lexus and parties like a rockstar...I need him to give me some financial advice.

More likely the car is a gift from the parents or he part of it. Other than that I completely believe Lando. The guy more likely doesn't have to pay any bills or rent.

 

[bob saunders]

AND that that society doesn't put obstacles in the way, either deliberately or accidentally.

What would be an example of those obstacles? I know many that succeed regardless of the roadblocks. Motivated people succeed.

 

[crm]

Many families have had money and lost it. Keeping it over generations speaks well of the families moderate habits, education level and business acumen. This is even more impressive in an image conscious, consumer based society like the DR. I respect anybody who inherits money and keeps it to pass to their next generation.