- Thread starter cibaenopuro
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57% of Dominicans live in poverty
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Actually, Japan was a xenophobic, medieval society with a highly regimented trade economy until 150 years ago or so (part of what was known as the "Meiji Restoration," which restored the Emperor's rule and embraced - you guessed it - western technological advancements.)
And any cursory review of European history will show that most folks were not "civilized for thousands of years with highly evolved economic cultures." Most were mud farmers hoping they wouldn't die from war, famine or the plague until about five centuries ago, so please don't romanticize.
Back to DR. My point is that in order to maximize the "natural" resources in the country - namely "Big Agro", mining, manufacturing and "service," you need to develop the infrastructure - and that begins with an educated, motivated workforce.
There is no faster or better way of improving an economy, creating a sustainable middle class, or bringing a better life to future generations than providing a solid education with opportunity. Period.
And yes, it takes years. Decades really. But that's one of the strongest long-term investments an individual - or society can make, and it has excellent returns.
As far as AZB's lack of "PC" is concerned, history is replete with scoundrels who hid unspeakable horrors behind a few good talking points.
Good to know, now for the FACTS! belgium has no natural resources, so how DiD they become a 1st World country? Dont you find it ODD that Diamonds arent found anywhere in Belgium but it is the worlds principal trading market? Dont diamonds, which are found in strifed AFRICAN countries FUND CIVIL WARS? Who benefits from these civil wars? ISNT THIS THE DEFINITION OF BLOOD MONEY? You steal resources from lands that have them and keep the money and funds in the lands that dont. Thats how it works right?
All of these TECHNICAL and INNOVATIVE companies you mention...ALL OF THEM, make products which can only be constructed using materials from AFRICA. Hey you got a cell phone, laptop, mp3, PDA, etc? You cant make the battery without Lithium from africa, Or the circuit board without Molybdenum or Chromuim, nor Gold, Plata, Copper, Magnesium, Maganese, Zinc, OIL, etc. you name it it is all found in Africa.
But yet in the face of such natural wealth you cannot name one 1st World AFRICAN country. The closest you get is the Republic of South Africa(where the Europeans have remained in charge). My friend what you say is ridiculous is the truth. One cannot equate POLTICAL LIBERATION WITH ECONOMIC LIBERATION. Big deal there are no "colonies on the continent of Africa". But there are many leaders who dance at the strings pulled by former colonial powers in order to preserve the status quo of "you give me what you got and I ll take it". The fact of the matter is if ANY AFRICAN country were to renegotiate the terms of the master/slave relationship this is a country which will find itself and its economy manipulated by "World Forces"(read: World Bank, IMF, UN, WHO, USAID) or military embargo. Thats how you get Banana Republics. The US did/does it with Cuba...and Haiti....and Iraq...and Afghanistan(if you didnt read the press release last week by the DOD that Afghanistan is believed to have a TRILLION DOLLARS OF NATURAL RESOURCES). And the Europeans do it with Africa.
You have countries going through awfully genocidal repressive civil wars for the sole purpose of making people rich. Or course these same people dont actually fight the wars they created the sides and funds the animosities and buy the weapons. And then go on TV in the world stage and say "how wrong this is". They never say that sold the weapons to fight to both sides.
TRUTH: Idi Amin and Robert Mugabe were in the pocket of the Americans and the British until they started expropriating lands from white farmers and white businessmen. But no one ever debated WHY he did this. The Africans are from Africa but represent NO WEALTH in the country. All the people with means, power, influence and industry were Indian expatriates or European settlers. So we loved the guy until he decided to exert a little provincial autonomy for the betterment of his populace...Just like Saddam Hussein, General Samoza, General Norieaga, Salvador Allende. Then you have idiots like Rafael Trujillo and Fulgencio Bautista who are so far out the loop of common decency yoyu wonder who would support a government led by them.
I dont think you know your own history and how much wealth a tiny country like Belgium has garnered from African colonialism.
And to make sure you understand what I am saying Hispaniola related(screw DR, because it didnt exist at the time) when the entire island was called Saint-Domingue it was the most profitable colony in the French realm. And the fact that a bunch of rebellious Negro slaves could overthrow the entire French settlement is the perpetual reason why this place is poor NOW(both sides). So what exactly took it from the most profitable colony in the French occupied world in 1803 to the 1st and 3rd poorest country in the hemisphere for the past 30 years?
This place is poor because unlike the Japanese, the Germans and the Cubans, this culture became comfortable allowing outsiders to make the decisions. It got nothing to do with drunk father and son waiter team and whatever madness.
So does England, France, but your wasting your time Racer, they will never admit it. They are still taught that it was a mission to civilize us :bored:
RacerX, where lay your origin?
What the DR is concirned, I am certain that this country will get his chance of becoming a 1st world country.
I only have to look at the potencial and creativeness of the Dominican people I have met so far to see that with such people this country will eventually move up onto a higher level.
It will have its ups and downs for sure like every country has or had.
And 57 % poverty is high but compare that with the current levels of poverty in 1st world countries and its on a global scale certainly explainable.
What the DR is concirned, I am certain that this country will get his chance of becoming a 1st world country.
I only have to look at the potencial and creativeness of the Dominican people I have met so far to see that with such people this country will eventually move up onto a higher level.
It will have its ups and downs for sure like every country has or had.
And 57 % poverty is high but compare that with the current levels of poverty in 1st world countries and its on a global scale certainly explainable.
Aida I didnt even want to get into UK, Dutch, France nor Spanish colonial efforts. Its all downhill from there.
Acira, I am from the United States. And Colonialism is an in-house business in the US. Every year we celebrate 2 days with fervor: the 4th of July and Thanksgiving. Both of them predicated on lies. One holiday says we threw off our English shackles in order to be free, but it wasnt so for all of us. Only for the moneyed and empresarial titans. And the other says we came here for religious tolerance and shared this new land with its inhabitants. Ha! Hmm, out of all this "communal sharing" and "brotherhood of man " where are these original folks?
I only wish Lambada could have read that post 363, she would have liked it alot.
Hispaniola will never become a 1st World countr(ies) as long as the Western side is a mess and the Eastern side is a debacle. Honestly this place needs a Marshall Plan to administer both sides as one cohesive yet different territory. Manpower is a resource. And manpower is in abundance here, on both sides. The only way for Hispaniola to advance is to consider it as 1900s USA before wide spread machinization. Roads were built by hand, as were subways, sewage and educational and other infrastructures. The manpower exists to build a straight 4 lane from Samana to Santiago. from Punta Cana points west. Just like in the US these New Deal programs, along with GI Bill created a middle class and stimulated industry.
BTW, Aida I should be in NY tomorrow and you know NOW it is way too hot to wear those bulky sweaters to cover your derriere. Haha!
Acira, I am from the United States. And Colonialism is an in-house business in the US. Every year we celebrate 2 days with fervor: the 4th of July and Thanksgiving. Both of them predicated on lies. One holiday says we threw off our English shackles in order to be free, but it wasnt so for all of us. Only for the moneyed and empresarial titans. And the other says we came here for religious tolerance and shared this new land with its inhabitants. Ha! Hmm, out of all this "communal sharing" and "brotherhood of man " where are these original folks?
I only wish Lambada could have read that post 363, she would have liked it alot.
Hispaniola will never become a 1st World countr(ies) as long as the Western side is a mess and the Eastern side is a debacle. Honestly this place needs a Marshall Plan to administer both sides as one cohesive yet different territory. Manpower is a resource. And manpower is in abundance here, on both sides. The only way for Hispaniola to advance is to consider it as 1900s USA before wide spread machinization. Roads were built by hand, as were subways, sewage and educational and other infrastructures. The manpower exists to build a straight 4 lane from Samana to Santiago. from Punta Cana points west. Just like in the US these New Deal programs, along with GI Bill created a middle class and stimulated industry.
BTW, Aida I should be in NY tomorrow and you know NOW it is way too hot to wear those bulky sweaters to cover your derriere. Haha!
Oh cather, life must be very simple and good living in sosua. No thinking involved and no culture to be seen miles and miles away. I bet you fit right in.
have a nice day.
AZB
Coming from some body who has its origin maybe in Africa and is using that fact through practical 90 % of here contribution to this board, but who has lived the most of her life in a very wealthy environment in Europe.
Hey, ABC, I was just sticking up for you man. You are a real hoot, but you know that.
Now, please share another one of your wonderfully enlightening little stories. They are soooo amusing.
You go. boy.
Now, please share another one of your wonderfully enlightening little stories. They are soooo amusing.
You go. boy.
Lol
90 % of my contribution to this board ? Acira you are an exceptional statistician
You are right, the fact that I am from a double-culture shapes my opinion and views of things, I can't help it. Unlike you, I see both sides of the story
Unless, you value only opinions coming from Belgium or Europe, sorry.
Since when growing in Europe means being in a very wealthy environment ?
Anyway........
90 % of my contribution to this board ? Acira you are an exceptional statistician
You are right, the fact that I am from a double-culture shapes my opinion and views of things, I can't help it. Unlike you, I see both sides of the story
Unless, you value only opinions coming from Belgium or Europe, sorry.
Since when growing in Europe means being in a very wealthy environment ?
Anyway........
I see you have the no es mi culpa affliction. There are numerous reasons that give partial resons for the DR remaining not fully developed. Education, which has been under the control and responsibility of Dominicans for the past 50 years....etc. Outsiders were in charge in many places like Hong Kong, Singapore....etc. I don't have the answers on why a country develops faster than another. Why are Chile and Uruguay more developed that most of South America? Why are Canada, New Zealand and Austarlia all more developed than the DR or Africa even though they are much younger. Perhaps because from the beginning they have been democratic and less corrupt. Maybe European organizational skills are superior to that of other areas? Doesn't really matter. What matters that Dominicans are masters of their own fate, and through the voting booths they allow the governments they have, and the education system they have. It is their responsibility.
90 % of my contribution to this board ? Acira you are an exceptional statistician
You are right, the fact that I am from a double-culture shapes my opinion and views of things, I can't help it. Unlike you, I see both sides of the story
Unless, you value only opinions coming from Belgium or Europe, sorry.
Since when growing in Europe means being in a very wealthy environment ?
Anyway........
Thanks for the compliment
@RacerX : Belgium is known for CUTTING diamonds towards perfection, please do not confuse that with diamond trading. Their is a lot of diamond trading in Belgium but for the sole purpose of the skills of cutting them. The trading of the "black" diamonds is a NO BUSINESS deal in Belgium and is very well inspected.
@AZB : well, I could make it an agenda point to meet you in 7 years here, but for now enjoy your life in NY.
For whatever reason any body choosed to live here, I think its fair to say that we all did choose this particular part of the Caribean islands because its easy to come in, easy to get out and life is a hell lot cheaper then from where we all came from.
So...in a nutshell, we all do in a sense live of the natural sources of this country also.
Is that a bad thing?
@AZB : well, I could make it an agenda point to meet you in 7 years here, but for now enjoy your life in NY.
For whatever reason any body choosed to live here, I think its fair to say that we all did choose this particular part of the Caribean islands because its easy to come in, easy to get out and life is a hell lot cheaper then from where we all came from.
So...in a nutshell, we all do in a sense live of the natural sources of this country also.
Is that a bad thing?
Don't you see the inherent contradiction here? The people didn't overthrow the colonial powers because they were comfortable with them, that makes no sense. They overthrew them because they wanted out. BTW, why use Cuba as an example? They also are POOR because they made bedfellows with USSR/commies (outsiders making their decisions).
This country is poor for MANY reasons, but the ones that you are reffering to is not because these cultures are comfortable with outside influences (US invasion produced the guerrilas "galleros" (sp?) ) but because the internal structure is weak.
You can't build a skyscraper with weak steel. The fact is that is that there is very little accountability. "Oh Pablo from PLD/PRD/PRSC/whatever just bought a lexus with stolen funds, let's ask him for a ride!" Getting drunk on the job, stealing funds, not giving your all, being crooked a lier and a cheat. These are all the same. And they all end up in the same road, where we are now (and will be in the future).
P.s. This island was the richest not just because of slave plantation but because this is where 'rebellious negro slaves' were sent to wither and die, like holocaust camps. "You better shutup and start working or Imma send you to Haiti!" that was the threat. I personally don't believe that every slaves story was the likes of Uncle Tom's Cabin (it is a work of fiction) but there is no denying this island was a cementary and a cruel one at that.
Please allow me to add that in hindsight there is a glaring difference between the examples of Germany and Japan to the Dominican Republic in terms of development, industrial or otherwise. Both (West) Germany and Japan were governed by outsiders after WWII and all decisions were approved by outsiders. These outsiders also rebuilt the manufacturing sector in these countries based on mid 20th century models (vs. the aged, turn of the century practices continued in the US and GB). The thought at home was "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" while abroad US widget gurus were unleashed upon Germany and Japan to put their process improvement theories into practice. Their success resulted in early repayment of war debt and regaining functional control of their governments and economies (albeit, under the watchful eyes of the "outsiders"). This would later be followed by a similar, yet less intrusive such effort in Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan.
The rest is history. Upon steady practice of process improvement theory these countries went on to compete and eventually attain manufacturing sector supremacy. Consumer electronics, automobiles, heavy construction equipment, photography equipment, steel, cargo ships and dry dock companies and on and on closed in the West as the East dominated the respective markets with their "wierd" ideas about improvement being a "bottom up" effort to work successfully.
That makes "Germany and Japan" a terrible comparison to the current atmosphere for economic development in the DR. It would make more sense to look toward the next point of technological innovation. Just as the US economy was in the death throes of losing its manufacturing edge, the government made available RF and IT infrastructure and bandwidth formerly reserved for official and military use as technological improvements reduced the need for this massive infrastructure (funded during the industrial years) and they made it available to public corporations (for a small fee) and up popped ISP's and search engines, etc. and the Age of Information Technology arrived, creating new American millionaires and billionaires on a regular basis and rewarding entrepreneurialism and innovation with unimaginable wealth.
In short, the nation used the old paradigm to fund a new one and the chemical factories and manufacturing processes and all the other dirty businesses which were being regulated out of profitability here anyway were outsourced and being replaced with less labor intensive, pollutant and reserve capital dependent Information Age businesses. This trend is continuing today as RF transmission bands have been digitized and deviation requirements shrunk as the result the "700 MHz Band" has been created for use by official communications and auctioned for use by "Mobile Video" providers who will produce the next wave of innovation.
The best model for success is already the best friend the DR has and opening themselves up to US technology businesses is the best hope for shoring up their service sector economy with a high tech component. I don't want to buy a car or washing machine manufactured in the DR but I would like to see a Dominican company capable of manufacturing satellite or Space Station components. You can only squeeze so much money out of "Fruit of the Looms".
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