Hermanas Mirabal

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

"I've never been one to deny the bad that Trujillo did, but why ignore what he accomplished?"

Because it should never be emulated or used as an example. He deserves to be in the trash heap of history. Only been in here a short time and I already see that their are no shortage of mental midgets here....

I not saying he should be emulated. The people I interviewed, people who knew him personally, some who plotted against him, and others who just mangaged to survive him, always maintained a rather even keeled and honest view of him.

"Trash bin of history?" What do you mean by that? That no one should ever discuss Trujillo in a factual and dispassionate way? People should just respond in an overly emotional and shrill way?

Did you ever consider that perhaps you might fall into the mental midget category yourself?

 

[A.Hidalgo]

With all due respect Mr. Pacheco, you keep mentioning all these interviews you had with these players in the politics of the Dominican Republic. Are you a journalist? or perhaps a diplomat? I mean you seem to have extraordinary access to these people. Can we have some sources of these interviews. Are there any recordings or perhaps written and published articles? If my memory serves me right your Spanish is very weak so I would assume you must have had a translator who could properly translate the political questions you were asking......but again its just my inquisitive side taking the better of me.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

With all due respect Mr. Pacheco, you keep mentioning all these interviews you had with these players in the politics of the Dominican Republic. Are you a journalist? or perhaps a diplomat? I mean you seem to have extraordinary access to these people. Can we have some sources of these interviews. Are there any recordings or perhaps written and published articles? If my memory serves me right your Spanish is very weak so I would assume you must have had a translator who could properly translate the political questions you were asking......but again its just my inquisitive side taking the better of me.

Fair enough.

I prefer to keep much of my personal life private and not post it online. So I won't.

I met a lot of people when I travelled to the Dominican Rpublic in the winter of 2006. I met General Imbert in Feb. 2006 at his home. One of the Reid Cabral family members arranged for the meeting. She acted as one of the interpeters. General Imbert does speak quite a bit of English but he told me that he felt more comfortbale answering in Spanish and have some translate his answers .There were several other people in the room who spoke English perfectly-including someone who was also "in the book(Deiderich)".

I wrote about this last year on DR. The person I rented a flat from was a Dominican blue blood. She introduced me to a member of the Reid Cabral Family. That person arranged for me to meet several other people including Chana Diaz. I was introduced to several other Dominicans by the people who I interviewed.

The Dominican landlord took me perosnally to the offices of DR1 where I met Robert and Dolores. So they know her.

About half of the people I interviewed could speak English very well-no one had to interpet anything for me. Otherwise, I was accompied by someone who could.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

I was wondering about something today. Has the idea that the murder of the Mirabal sisters was the catalyst for Trujillo's assassination become part of the official Dominican Mythology?

I have never read anything which said anything of the kind. The books clearly state the motivations of the assassins. None of the people I interviewed ever mentioned the Mirabal murder as being the catalyst of the assassination. None of them. The beginning of the end started in march 1956-with the kidnapping/redition of Jesus Galindez. That lead to the murder of several people in an attempt to cover it up-including Antonio de la Maza's brother-an airforce pilot.

I've never read the Julia Alverez book-just the factual history books.

Is that what Dominican history books are now saying?:surprised

 

[Chirimoya]

Ogre, I think the sisters' murder is seen as a catalyst in terms of turning the tide of public sympathy in the final months leading up to Trujillo's assassination.

Trujillo had a pretty good reason in his mind to eliminated these women. Not rocket science to understand that he felt a certain amount of threat to his power coming from their quarters. That said we must understand that the sisters as far as we know from historical records, had no plans whatsoever to use violence and assassinate him, but for ulterior reasons their deaths did facilitate others to carry out the deed only 6 months late.

Bolding mine: weren't Minerva and Mar?a Teresa active in the underground 1J4 movement, or at least strongly linked through their husbands (Manolo Tavares and Leandro Guzm?n) who were members?

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

I haven't chance to look through my books yet to check some things. There is a book on the militarization of Dominican society(I can't rmember the author) and she stated that Minerva and one other sister(honestly I don't remember which one-I'll check and post it ASAP) were "central to the movement". IJ4 was ruins by 1960.

The sisters were not merely married to key members of IJ4, they were key members.

 

[Robert]

With all due respect Mr. Pacheco, you keep mentioning all these interviews you had with these players in the politics of the Dominican Republic. Are you a journalist? or perhaps a diplomat? I mean you seem to have extraordinary access to these people. Can we have some sources of these interviews. Are there any recordings or perhaps written and published articles? If my memory serves me right your Spanish is very weak so I would assume you must have had a translator who could properly translate the political questions you were asking......but again its just my inquisitive side taking the better of me.

Just for the record.

I personally know Joel and can vouch for him. He is an authority on this subject, maybe more than anyone else. Plus has a great collection of Trujillo memorabilia.

He has conducted many interviews over the past few years here in the DR.
Through lots of hard work, perseverance, friends, DR1 etc he has gained incredible access to certain people. This is not like the USA, many people are just a phone call away, it all depends on who you know

General Imbert is still very much alive and kicking. A very good friend (gringo) is about to marry one of his close relatives. A.Hidalgo, come along to the wedding, you can ask him if he knows Joel

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

The book I mentioned yesterday is entitled, The Militarization of Culture in the Dominican Republic from the Captain Generals to Trujillo, by Valentina Peguero.

She states that Patria Minerva and Maria Teresa Mirabal were "key members" of IJ4. They both helped create and organize the June 14th Movement as well as kept it energized against Trujillo.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Fair enough.

I prefer to keep much of my personal life private and not post it online. So I won't.

I met a lot of people when I travelled to the Dominican Rpublic in the winter of 2006. I met General Imbert in Feb. 2006 at his home. One of the Reid Cabral family members arranged for the meeting. She acted as one of the interpeters. General Imbert does speak quite a bit of English but he told me that he felt more comfortbale answering in Spanish and have some translate his answers .There were several other people in the room who spoke English perfectly-including someone who was also "in the book(Deiderich)".

I wrote about this last year on DR. The person I rented a flat from was a Dominican blue blood. She introduced me to a member of the Reid Cabral Family. That person arranged for me to meet several other people including Chana Diaz. I was introduced to several other Dominicans by the people who I interviewed.

The Dominican landlord took me perosnally to the offices of DR1 where I met Robert and Dolores. So they know her.

About half of the people I interviewed could speak English very well-no one had to interpet anything for me. Otherwise, I was accompied by someone who could.

Fair enough Joel. As an adult I usually guide my life with a good dosage of skepticism. I like to see the source of statements and then take it from there. I meant nothing personal against your character. You and I have communicated several times through pm's and have shown respect to each other. That being said lets continue......

 

[A.Hidalgo]

I was wondering about something today. Has the idea that the murder of the Mirabal sisters was the catalyst for Trujillo's assassination become part of the official Dominican Mythology?

I have never read anything which said anything of the kind. The books clearly state the motivations of the assassins. None of the people I interviewed ever mentioned the Mirabal murder as being the catalyst of the assassination. None of them. The beginning of the end started in march 1956-with the kidnapping/redition of Jesus Galindez. That lead to the murder of several people in an attempt to cover it up-including Antonio de la Maza's brother-an airforce pilot.

I've never read the Julia Alverez book-just the factual history books.

Is that what Dominican history books are now saying?:surprised

I agree

Ogre, I think the sisters' murder is seen as a catalyst in terms of turning the tide of public sympathy in the final months leading up to Trujillo's assassination.

Joel perhaps I can help jog your memory in reference to the Mirabal's death serving as a catalyst of the assassination of Trujillo. You wrote a post to that effect. If quotes are correct then the sisters murder was significant.

I have also read that the host of the party that night was Antonio De la Maza, at that time, the governor of Moca(from memory). He tried to smooth over the situation with Trujillo, to no avail.

Years later, after the murders, Antonio De la Maza commented to General Juan Thomas Diaz(from memory), "Now Trujillo is even murdering women! This madman has to be stopped!" Those two men would form the nucleus of the group that successfully assassinated Trujillo.

De la Maza would also be the one who finished off Trujillo with a bullet fired under his chin.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Yes, he did say that-however, the motivation to kill Trujillo for de la Maza was his brother's murder. That was the real reason. Even the General Imbert and some of the men I spoke with at his home during the interview asserted that. Diederich, the book where I took that quote from, also emphasized that point.

The motives for General Diaz were, according to Deiderich and even General Espailliat, personal revenge for being retird early. I don't think that's fair. A common response for many of the people interviewed was, for example, "I think disagree with Diederich, I think my father loved his country." Diederich lays out many specific reasons why people joined, it makes many of the plotters look like they were simply avenging themselves personally, I think for many of those involved, that's unfair.

The Mirabals murder was a brutal shock, but, if anything, perhaps it only steeled the determination of those involved. I don't know honestly, the Sisters murder was never mentioned by the by the people I interviewed.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Corrections!

Sorry, some corrections-I really need to look over these posts more before I post them...

"I disagree with Diederich, I think my father loved his country." That's what the quote should have been.

Also, I need to clear up something. I should have written, "Years after the party incident,and just a few days after the murders, de la Maza would say..."

 

[A.Hidalgo]

The nightmare is over, we are free at last. But the thing that is making me tremble, that I do not want to say out loud ? and I?ll say it once only and it?s done. Was it for this, the sacrifice of the butterflies? (318)

In the Times of the Butterflies (1994)

 

[Golo100]

Has anyone read Euclides Gutierrez' new book on Trujillo?

When I read it I will have some more comments on this subject. But Gutierrez was a former Constitucionalista and leftist stalwart and now a PLD check grabber, like all the revolutionaries from the 1965 revolution(As far as I'm concerned a bunch of adventure and gold seekers who have not proven me wrong)
But Gutierrez has a soft side for Trujillo. He has accepted Trujillo's value to DR, including building a nation from scratch.
Whereas the Mirabals and all past "heroes" have only proven to be an elitist group of dreamers who didn't get much that would not have been gotten thru time(perhaps sooner than they thought) as Haitian power was on the decline anyway.
But I will get back to you with one by one opinion of such traitors and pseudo-heroes as Antonio De La Maza, Antonio Imbert Barreras and all the heroes of 1961. But I have some reading to do.
As for the Mirabals....Its' all hype. Have you seen their mother looking for press clippings everyday riding around with Leonel?
Golo

 

[NALs]

But Gutierrez has a soft side for Trujillo. He has accepted Trujillo's value to DR, including building a nation from scratch.

That's obvious!

Descendants of Trujillo (including the dictator's son Rafael Trujillo Lovat?n) were present at the ceremony initiating the circulation of the book this past tuesday in Santo Domingo. :surprised

-NALs

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

While many of the people I interviewed did mention some of Trujillo's positives, I can't say that I came across much in the way of nostalgia for his rule. People remember the good along with the bad. Trujillo could be extremely cruel and for all of his reforms, there was a very real loss of freedom. And Trujillo wouldn't hesitiate to crush anyone who got in his way.

However, I am curious to hear more about this book.

 

[Golo100]

Just a few things about the 1961 gang

Many people who have written books about Trujillo never really got a flavor of what DR was all about at the time. Some never experienced first hand knowledge. Just a few pointers on De La Maza. This guy was like the Dominican Attila The Hun. Whereever this guy passed the grass never grew again. Trujillo gave him power he never dreamed of. This is why he was more of an opportunistic traitor than vengeance seeker. He was given the power to own all lumbering rights in the Haitian border areas near Restauraci?n and Loma de Cabrera. He practicly owned the mountains, even Mount Nalga De Maco, the highest peak in the area. His lumber mills were the biggest in DR. He was one of the many "Caciques" who controlled provinces in the nation. Except that he was strong everywhere, even as far as Provincia Monse?or Nouel. Although some write that he was offended by the Mirabal situation, including Trujillo'ssexual appettite for one of them, fathers accross the country would hide their daughters whenever de La Maza was known to visit areas. For instance when he would drive thru in his luxury caravan thru Loma De Cabrera all girls(minors) suddenly dissappeared from view. I wondered, as a young man at the time, what the reason was and was told Attila was coming!!
DeLa Maza's rude face and big body did not hide his rudeness, arrogance and mean demeanor. This was not exclusive of him alone. His family's demeanor was equally strong. For instance, a family member I will not reveal, was second in command at a foreign service office abroad, and she was about 6ft. tall. Some say she was a mature Tom Boy and managed the affairs of that important post with just her powerful stance to things. No one dared challenged her. She was imposing..a De La Maza>
When Ramfis searched all over for his dad's assasins De La Maza was his main priority for revenge. Ramfis I heard said "I will get this bastard traitor if it is the last thing I do before I leave this country." Ramfis never had any illusions of following his father's steps. He was an "international" dude. He was not interested in power in DR. He would have traded being a Frenchman than being a Dominican. He adored Europe and white caucasian women, specially those from society and the entertainment industry. He picked up this trait from Porfirio Rubirosa, Dominican's premier playboy. He loved fast cars, but in the autobahn, not in Autopista Duarte. If Trujillo had died of natural death, Ramfis would have left soon after and would not have claimed his seat at Dr. Delgado Avenue. He just as soon would have left Balaguer in place and get his "pension" at The Eiffel Tower.
Thank god for him. Can anyone here picture the scene today in DR should Ramfis had not cleaned up house? What would have been of this country with all these guys alive!!! Just think what it is today, the mess we're in, with just one of them alive? How Many Rosario mine situations would we have? How many Trujillos driving around in bullet proof late model limos paid by our poor taxpayers, with bronze licence plates with 3 stars and caravans of bodyguards? Has anyone ever seen Imbert's entourage lately? Not even Trujillo, or even the bombastic Leonel Fernandez would show show upsmanship as our "hero" Imbert.

 

[NALs]

While many of the people I interviewed did mention some of Trujillo's positives, I can't say that I came across much in the way of nostalgia for his rule. People remember the good along with the bad. Trujillo could be extremely cruel and for all of his reforms, there was a very real loss of freedom. And Trujillo wouldn't hesitiate to crush anyone who got in his way.

However, I am curious to hear more about this book.

That's typical of people who are descendants of "controversial" figures.

Have you met any relatives of Balaguer? Not a single one of them identify with the caudillo.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

He loved fast cars, but in the autobahn, not in Autopista Duarte.

I'm sure you meant autopista las Am?ricas, since la Duarte was not an autopista in those times AND las Am?ricas was built as a dual carriageway so Ramfis could play with his toys on wheels.

I always have wondered why las Am?ricas was built with not guard rails on the side that skirts the sea. Perhaps the dictator "hoped" his idiot son would drive off into sea someday. Hey, you never know... maybe Trujillo knew something about the destiny of his son, given how Ramfis met with death. :cheeky:

If Trujillo had died of natural death, Ramfis would have left soon after and would not have claimed his seat at Dr. Delgado Avenue. He just as soon would have left Balaguer in place and get his "pension" at The Eiffel Tower.

That's certainly true. Ramfis was always perceived to be an idiot and the funny part is that he was an idiot. He desired women and fast cars more than he desired power.

A complete idiot.

-NALs

 

[Chip]

That's certainly true. Ramfis was always perceived to be an idiot and the funny part is that he was an idiot. He desired women and fast cars more than he desired power.

A complete idiot.

-NALs

No offense, but I think these are the lesser of the two evils. How many lives are destroyed by a playboy as opposed to a despot? Maybe that is the problem indicative to the elite here, power rules over anything else - such a shame.