2 years to go.

[Tuan]

BJ: your points are all well taken, especially re the constitution.
Others re "It takes a generation..."
I've got a lifetime working and living around the world in many cultures. That gives me confidence in stating it will take MANY generations. Live examples are everywhere, especially the former Soviet satellites. Just one example, East Germany still has nearly 20% joblessness after 17 years free and re-integrated into West Germany which had 1.5% at the time of integration. Now, the combined joblessness of all of Germany is 10.5% -- and the East Germans had Communist training for only 43 years. They'll need at least 2 generations or more. The Latin American culture?
'n' generations AFTER establishing proper respect for democratic order.
Sorry to bring the news ...

 

[El Vegano]

BJ: your points are all well taken, especially re the constitution.
Others re "It takes a generation..."
I've got a lifetime working and living around the world in many cultures. That gives me confidence in stating it will take MANY generations. Live examples are everywhere, especially the former Soviet satellites. Just one example, East Germany still has nearly 20% joblessness after 17 years free and re-integrated into West Germany which had 1.5% at the time of integration. Now, the combined joblessness of all of Germany is 10.5% -- and the East Germans had Communist training for only 43 years. They'll need at least 2 generations or more. The Latin American culture?
'n' generations AFTER establishing proper respect for democratic order.
Sorry to bring the news ...

I am with you on this. It's a very slow and painful process and if that is in a highly developed area what can you expect in a small, poor, Caribbean nation with a tradition of turmoil. We Dominicans are just beginning the process.

 

[rtejeda]

Leonel is trying his best

I have this thought in my mind and I realise it is a very naive thought .. but damn, Fernandez is good at flitting alll over the place and attracting positive press and by the looks of things, positive investment.

Now we're going into a period of constitutional amendment that seems to want to address the endemic corruption problems and in the back of my mind is something that says, Uh Oh! something's fishy.

We still see corruption excesses all over the place, they cannot get it together to get the paperwork and legal requirements in a state to implement DR-Cafta, we have continual police force excesses, document forgeries being run very successfully out of jails and so on and so on.

Tell me, is Fernandez and all his grandiose plans going to really make a difference in the next 2 years to go? Or is it simply status quo accompanied by brilliant words and grandiose schemes? Is he working harder to obtain his next job than to maintain his current job?

Are the grandiose schemes going to go uncompleted and hang about half-done like so many others? Where is Golo when we need him? Can someone assess for us... Is the level of corruption going to simply poof... disappear with the constitutional amendments? Somehow even I cannot quite buy that. Is this country going to get onto a more solid footing? What is really happening?

The issue of corruption in our country is so serious that is undermining, big time, a long lasting democracy, as we perceive it today, in the Dominican Republic.

All this talk about corruption is due to pressure inflicted by the U.S.A government and its agencies' missions in our sovereign Dominican territory. The PLD is too busy saying what will make them look good and to little doing good. They promised to get 500.000 new, needed jobs for the unemployed and came up 385.000 short.

The PLD doesn't even have a well defined political position, as a matter of fact they deleted that section from their website, all they can say is "E PA' LANTE QUE VAMOS" and they can not even get the basic jobs needed to create better living condition for the Dominican families and minimize the crime rate.
The (Leonel) trip to Taiwan is nothing more than a "little vacation" with a "little sales presentation" of Dominican products, paid for by Dominicans tax payers. Thats it! nothing more! I "realize" that the reality about the PLD's administration its fishy.:bunny:

 

[Chris]

Could we just ignore this party political piece of incitement.... and continue discussing the issue.

 

[BushBaby]

rtejeda,
You remind me very much of my ex-wife!! Lots of criticism, lots of complaining & not a constructive thought in your body!!

We have (Through many posters on MANY of your treads) asked you to come up with some sensible & feasible responses - todate I have seen nothing that could be construed as 'A thought process', eiter in your complaing nor in your suggestions for future growth. Please ctake a year or two to consider a sane & logical reply - we will still be here for you then & will listen with OPEN minds (something slightly different to YOURS I would suggest!!).

You mention "big time, a long lasting democracy, as we perceive it today, in the Dominican Republic" - how long do you consider this 'Long Lasting' democracy has been going on here? 100 years?? 200 years? Take a look at the history books please, democracy in the DR is in it's infancy!! We are still learning about true democracy & at the moment it needs a lot of restructuring. This restructuring cannot be to an existing style of democracy, it must be tailored to the Dominican Culture & will evolve over time - as it has done in many other "1st World" countries!! ~ Grahame.

 

[El Vegano]

Just ignore him.

Personally, I have decided to ignore rtejeda's posts and do not respond to any of them anymore. A look at his posts in this Government forum speak for themselves and BushBaby has said it all.

 

[bilijou]

DR1 message board, where have you been all my life? hehe
I've been looking for a place where I can discuss these issues without the empty political rhetoric (rtejeda, you messed it up for me a bit in the end).

One thing that I have found time and time again is that of all the Dominicans that have done the most good for this country through the centuries, and there have been a lot, have all lived and were educated in a foreign land and returned here to help their fellow Dominicans.

Rick, its interesting that you mention that. I agree that a lot of the Dominicans that have helped the country have been educated outside the country. Why do you think that is?

I dont think that it is because there are no good schools in the country. I know, it is a numbers game and if we had a better public school system, the chances would be better. However, there are plenty of private schools that output enough critical thinkers capable of tackling all the problems in DR.

There is something else to this and once again I fall back to the cultural problems rather than institutional. We have had this problem since before it was the Dominican Republic. It was articulated by the positivist Dominican intellectuals of the late 19th and early 20th century, and instituted by Trujillo: Racist Pessimism. We tend to downgrade anybody or anything that is Dominican. And it is widespread throughout our society, from upper to lower class.

Now this thread can be divided into the top-bottom approach (with stronger institutions by better Constitution and less corruption) and the bottom-up approach (culture change).
I would like to do a thought experiment, and it is not perfect so do not murder me in your responses.
Let's take the top-bottom approach... imagine we will take a chunk of the Dominican population and place them in a bubble, or country, with strong institutions. Let's call this place Washington Heights, New York.
Will they be prosperous?

Dominicans perform worse than other nationalities (look up the stats). Many have researched this and found that they have lower confidence levels than even African Americans. They do not have the "can-do" mentality, their identity (dominated by this racist pessimism) tells them that they are who they are.

I tend to analyze Dominicans in this bubble by their approach to race, since its unquestionably related to the pessimism. If you do this in NY, you will find a positive correlation between Dominicans who are over the race issue and their economic success. (No study has been done, only by observation)

I suspect that the same would hold true in DR if it had strong institutions.

This problem (pessimism) is also an impediment in other aspects. A lot of the middle to upper class schools output student carry this typical mentality. In addition, they are more in touch with the rest of the world and use it as a point of reference to measure how backwards Dominicans are.
Instead feeling empathy for the lower classes, they despise them. So aside from being a minority that has the capability of helping, the potential is undermined by the culture.

Until there is cultural unity, I dont have hope.

 

[Hipocrito Mejia]

... a lot of the Dominicans that have helped the country have been educated outside the country. Why do you think that is?

That's because they have a different perspective on life due to the influence of a different culture on their upbringing.

I think that it's inevitable for any Dominican national that is educated in a first world society such as the US or Europe to think that certain aspects from those cultures can be well adapted to life in DR. Certainly, most of us who have grown up and have been educated outside of DR would appreciate the more orderly, everyday lifestyle that is common in first world countries, without changing the essence of our country. IMO, we tend to be more progressive thinkers because that is generally how well educated people in those societies think.

You have to realize that even people who attain a high level of education in DR are programmed from an early age to accept that connections and who you know, will usually get you farther than your education anyway. It's a way of thinking that is hard to change, but growing up away from that goes a long way to leaving it behind.

 

[mandryjx]

Thanks Rick - will do

 

[drtampa]

Civil Service

I am certain that this has been addressed before but I cannot find it.
Is there any hope for an effective civil service system in the DR?

 

[Rick Snyder]

Drtampa I am in the process of addressing this issue please hang in there.

Rick

 

[Rick Snyder]

Thank you Bilijou and Hipocrito Mejia for those wonderful posts.

HM did a very good job of explaining why those such as LF are able to have a vision of something other then the “status quo” as it presently stands. That is also the reason that I keep emphasizing that the DR needs, must have more Dominicans that have lived and have been educated abroad to come here and get involved. If they don’t wish to come back to the DR then there are a number of organizations run by Dominicans in the US and other countries that take an active part in the internal workings of the DR that they could join. As all the change that is mandatory for the DR to advance must be implemented by Dominicans then it is imperative that more Dominicans get involved. It’s either that or you continue to allow the present “elite” run the show.

Bilijou,

I believe that your two approaches can both be implemented at the same time. I also wish to add that you used the word (“pessimism”) and I would submit that a better word would be “fatalisim”.

LF is giving every indication that he is trying to implement the “top-bottom approach” and it is my hope and desire that he can pull this off.

A very simple thing like implementing a civil service administration would do wonders for the Dominican populace. As it presently stands with the present botellas a truly ignorant person has a good chance to acquire a job not requiring much work simply because he knows someone. In the same token his life is held in a sort of limbo because he knows that if his connection dies, loses his job or the person in power is replaced that that workers job comes to an end. Jobs run by a civil service requiring a test to be employed and the assurance of job security regardless of who is in power will change the average thinking of all Dominicans as illustrated below;
1. Because of the test required for employment it will send the message of the importance of education and therefore instill the desire for such.
2. Because of the test you will end up with better employees.
3. Because of the job stability you will end up with better trained employees.

There are many more benefits to a civil service program but those three are the ones that jump up in my mind. When instilling the thought of a future for the Dominican then you have the possibility of breaking that fatalistic view that the majority of them have. This fatalistic view that they hold is a cultural problem and is one step to change the culture.

Let us now talk about your other approach of bottom-up and “cultural unity”. How do you achieve that? The example above is one way but how about other ways. As culture is the passing on of or the teaching of and learned items then it stands to reason that the way to change a learned cultural aspect is by education. The feasibility of this education happening in school is remote due to the present education system. One way that this could be accomplished is through public broadcasts, announcements and commercials. There may be others and I would love to hear them.

Rick

 

[Mirador]

Drtampa I am in the process of addressing this issue please hang in there.

Rick

An effective civil service system in the DR is completely out of the question. The current clientelist political system will not allow it. Civil service appointments are based on the spoils system, where the bureacracy is filled with political hacks and cronies from the incoming political party. The civil servants appointed by the loosing party are, "e 'pa fuera que van"..... It is true that the system perpetuates a culture of incompetence, where meritorious public officials are often replaced by usually unqualified appointees. The political system will first have to be addressed, before an effective civil service system can be considered.

 

[aegap]

dr1,

The (Leonel) trip to Taiwan is nothing more than a "little vacation" with a "little sales presentation" of Dominican products, paid for by Dominicans tax payers. Thats it! nothing more!:bunny:

President Fernandez announces Taiwan FTA
President Leonel Fernandez and President Chen Sui-bian of Taiwan have made progress in talks aimed at working towards a free trade agreement in 2007. The plan is to seek to establish a strategic economic and trade alliance that would allow for an increase in Dominican exports and a channel for Taiwan to penetrate the United States market. The Dominican Republic has a highly negative trade balance with Taiwan.
Taiwan has launched a "Co Prosperity" program in which it has allocated US$250 million for creating a fund that will benefit Taiwanese industrialists who invest in the Dominican Republic and Central American countries with which it is discussing individual free trade agreements. The fund would allow the Taiwanese government to stimulate its industrialists with a participation of up to 49 percent in their proposed investment projects of up to US$100 million in the participating countries.
During his visit to Taipei, President Fernandez agreed to support Taiwan's aspirations to become a member of multilateral organizations with full rights, including the United Nations. The Presidency reported that Shui-bian and Fernandez signed a note committing both nations to work towards consolidating democracy and better living conditions for their citizens.
President Fernandez also announced that Taiwan had pledged to donate US$50 million to the Santo Domingo Cyber park to be used for new buildings, technology services and the construction of a technology museum, as reported by the Presidency. Diario Libre reports that the resources would be invested in the creation of four centers specializing in research in the fields of biomedicine, biopharmaceuticals, nutritional biotechnology and cybernetic security, and the acquisition of land for the cyber park's expansion. Disbursement of the funds will begin this month with a US$20 million contribution.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Mirador for a person that is supposed to be well traveled and educated I find your post #53 to be of a capricious nature. You obviously have no idea as to how a civil service system is operated if set up properly. Why it is that you always seem to have this obstructionism for anything mentioned that is or would be good for your native land is beyond my comprehension.

Rick

 

[Rick Snyder]

Sometimes I like the press.

If you read my post #19 last paragraph here and my post #29 first paragraph here and then this article here, Know your parking rights, you just might get a feeling as to what I’m trying to say. And another reason why I say you don't need a generation for change to take place.

Rick

 

[Texas Bill]

An effective civil service system in the DR is completely out of the question. The current clientelist political system will not allow it. Civil service appointments are based on the spoils system, where the bureacracy is filled with political hacks and cronies from the incoming political party. The civil servants appointed by the loosing party are, "e 'pa fuera que van"..... It is true that the system perpetuates a culture of incompetence, where meritorious public officials are often replaced by usually unqualified appointees. The political system will first have to be addressed, before an effective civil service system can be considered.

Mirador:

I really hate to reference the US Civil Service System, but I believe the history of it's development to be germane to the discussion here since that history is very similar to what is existing today in the DR.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia giving a thumbnail sketch:

"In the United States, the Civil Service is defined as "all appointive positions in the executive, judicial, and legislative branches of the Government of the United States, except positions in the uniformed services." (United States Code Title 5 § 2101). In the early 19th century it was based on the so-called spoils system, in which all bureaucrats were dependent on elected politicians. This was changed by the Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act of 1883 and today U.S. civil servants are appointed and recruited based on merit, although certain civil service positions, including some heads of diplomatic missions and executive agencies may also be filled by political appointees. The U.S. Civil Service includes the Competitive service, and the Excepted service. The majority of civil service appointments in the U.S. are made under the Competitive Service, but certain categories in the Diplomatic Service, the FBI, and other National Security positions are made under the Excepted Service. (U.S. Code Title V)".

Doesn't this history sound a lot like the present day DR Civil Service System.
The US solved the same problem, why can't the DR do the same? All it takes is enough people protesting the existing system until it is changed.
Such a change would also be an incentive for people to seek a better education than the one they are getting, don't you think?

And it is the changing of the present political system, through Constitutional Reform, that is the subject of this thread.
You're an intelligent person, Mirador, and it is incumbent upon you as a Responsible Dominican Citizen to ake your voice heard during the discussions seading up to the actual voting process of approval. The big question is this, Do you have the sincerity of purpose to act according to your dictates of integrity to go into the battle ahead?

I leave it up to you. It's YOUR country we're referring to here.

Texas Bill

 

[Mirador]

Mirador for a person that is supposed to be well traveled and educated I find your post #53 to be of a capricious nature. You obviously have no idea as to how a civil service system is operated if set up properly. Why it is that you always seem to have this obstructionism for anything mentioned that is or would be good for your native land is beyond my comprehension.

Rick

Rick, you have misinterpreted me, I'm not being capricious. While you are philosophizing about the issue, I've actually been there. I've been a civil servant in the DR for almost eight years, and I am very close to the inner workings of the political system. I've also been a civil servant in other countries. Academically, my minor was in public administration, which I consider, along with international trade, my forte.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Mirador if public administration is your forte and you have experience with the so called civil service here in the DR then you are what I would call a resident expert on that which exists and that which must exist for the betterment of the Dominican populace.

It is people like you that I have been trying for a couple of years to convince to take that necessary plunge into the political arena. If you read that post #56 above with the link to the DR1 news you will see what can happen when a Dominican gets involved. So much can be done by organization and involvement.

Texas Bill said it very well in the last paragraph of his above post.

With the amount of Dominican on this board spread out all over the world and in this country I would think that if one of you were to take that stand, form an idea and it was sound and good for the DR I honestly believe you would be overwhelmed by support by your fellow Dominicans and a lot of the ex-pats on this board if help were asked. The missing ingredient is the Dominican to do that and ask for help.

Rick

 

[bilijou]

You have to realize that even people who attain a high level of education in DR are programmed from an early age to accept that connections and who you know, will usually get you farther than your education anyway. It's a way of thinking that is hard to change, but growing up away from that goes a long way to leaving it behind.

Hipocrito, I hear this comment a lot, but I dont see anything wrong with it. I find that Dominicans are automatically trained as networkers. If you don't network, you don't survive.

I'm right out of college (Business), living in NY. Looking up jobs on the New York Times or on the web are no help. The only way to get anywhere is by NETWORKING. Attend networking parties and meet people, try to connect with people high up. Read Dale Carnegie. Almost no different from DR. (except there's always customer service jobs)

Let us now talk about your other approach of bottom-up and “cultural unity”. How do you achieve that?

Rick, I've thought about this a lot. I've done some research. Here's an idea:
A lot of Arab governments (Egypt, Iran, Syria, etc.) from countries recently (50 years) independent from the Europeans have had to deal with the tendency of some classes to be very "westenized". They used mass communications, namely Television (sometimes Cinema), which they controlled. (I know, they were authoritarian governments) The idea was to create an united national identity.

It didn't always work all the way through, in few cases the disparity between the ideal image and reality was so large that it created tension between the classes. If done properly (by the Secretaria de Cultura, or someone else), pay producers to create Dominican image that people are proud of and be true to Dominicanesss, it could work.

I believe Culture CAN be constructed. Trujillo is a testament to that. His propaganda created national unity even though it was for the wrong reason. (the whole "Hispanidad" bull****, and for the worship of himself)
I know, many sectors in the society rebelled. But the propaganda worked, trujillismo is alive.

Also, I grew up with my father's stories about how the MPD used to mobilize the masses around the whole country. Though, I wouldnt want to take the communist route.