57% of Dominicans live in poverty

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cobraboy

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People keep mentioning that the politicians in the DR are by and large products of the 57% of the nation's poor. That's exactly why they dance like puppets on strings which are manipulated by the country's wealthy. They don't want to go back to the 57%. They have acted as overseers for their real bosses until now and I hope the people continue to demand more from them. Say what you will about him, I think Leonel is the most progressive leader in the region right now and he may just 'get it'.
On one hand you accuse politicians of being puppets on a string connected to the wealthy. Then you say Leonel is a "progressive" leader who may "get it", implying he's not a puppet to the same guys.

How can this be?

If the "waelthy" are really the puppetmasters, wouldn't it be rather easy to have the kind of Prewsident that would maintain *their* status quo?
 

greydread

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nope

Dang! I thought they got rid of those 50+ years ago?

Silly me, I didn't know they were still being enforced...:bunny:

Sadly, you are wrong. Laws forbidding interracial marriage were still on the books in Alabama in 2000. There are many similar laws from the Jim Crowe era still on the books in the South.
 

greydread

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On one hand you accuse politicians of being puppets on a string connected to the wealthy. Then you say Leonel is a "progressive" leader who may "get it", implying he's not a puppet to the same guys.

How can this be?

If the "waelthy" are really the puppetmasters, wouldn't it be rather easy to have the kind of Prewsident that would maintain *their* status quo?

Every once in awhile a superior strategist manages to appease both the masters and the masses.
 

cobraboy

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Sadly, you are wrong. Laws forbidding interracial marriage were still on the books in Alabama in 2000. There are many similar laws from the Jim Crowe era still on the books in the South.
Wow. Real Game Changers.

I guess black folks in Alabama have been held back by The Man because of that law.

Got it.
 

cobraboy

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Every once in awhile a superior strategist manages to appease both the masters and the masses.
Sorta blows the theory of the weathy having all the power, huh, if some rascal can sneak through the net?

Wow: that sneaky Leonel. I wonder if the Puppet Masters know they're being duped?

Wanna bet PICHARDO alerts them to this part of the thread. Maybe Leonel will get a real talkin' to...

This is all so confusing. The wealthy have all the power except when they ~really~ don't have all the power...
 

greydread

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you so funny...

Wow. Real Game Changers.

I guess black folks in Alabama have been held back by The Man because of that law.

Got it.

I give you fact and the only response you can come up with is sarcasm? That was just one example of a recent overturning of JimCrowLaw. Your assertion was that they had all been removed 40 or 50 years ago and it was an erroneous one.

The History of Jim Crow

Oh..and just in case you're into antiques:

New Racist Forms: Jim Crow in the 21st Century

"Black Folks", Latinos, Asians and other Americans are not held back by "The Man". They are provided with obstacles which result from the evil in some Men's hearts. Many overcome these obstacles.
 

greydread

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This is all so confusing. The wealthy have all the power except when they ~really~ don't have all the power...

What's not to understand? There is Power and there is Wealth. They often travel together but not always. The wealthy and the powerful have always sought one another out and both are equally sexy to some.
 

cobraboy

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What's not to understand? There is Power and there is Wealth. They often travel together but not always. The wealthy and the powerful have always sought one another out and both are equally sexy to some.
Nice tapdance.

greydread said:
That's exactly why they dance like puppets on strings which are manipulated by the country's wealthy.

Your clear assertion was that the DR's politicians are proxies for the wealthy. Not powerful.

'Course often when classism and class envy are topics here ther term "powerful wealthy" is used.

It doesn't matter, really. This thread is just more 'the noble poor and downtrodden proletariat are expolited and kept down my the eeevil bourgoise" stuff.

After hearing this stuff for most of my adult life...and I'm 58...it just becomes more background noise.

I may have been born white, but I was also born ugly. We all have had a burden to carry.
 

Lambada

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greydread, whilst I agree with much of what you have posted in this thread, I do have to take issue on Leonel being 'progressive'. Look what happened outside his place last Sunday (mother's day). In best Balaguer traditions he invited poor mothers to come for cash handouts; some queued all night on Saturday, babes in arms. The first 50 got RD$3000, the next group RD$1000, finally RD$500 and of course chaos ensued. Police had to be called to restore order.

This isn't progress. It merely reinforces the status quo. Obscene really.
 
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Again, Lambada has provided some interesting insight. Although I tend to avoid DR politics, I am intrigued by the blatant manipulation by almost all the politicians here. The example provided by Lambada just reinforces what I have witnessed repeatedly on a local level.

If an intelligent person such as Greydread can be taken in to some extent by the marketing ploys of Leonel then I guess Leonel's handlers are doing their job effectively.
 

bob saunders

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greydread, whilst I agree with much of what you have posted in this thread, I do have to take issue on Leonel being 'progressive'. Look what happened outside his place last Sunday (mother's day). In best Balaguer traditions he invited poor mothers to come for cash handouts; some queued all night on Saturday, babes in arms. The first 50 got RD$3000, the next group RD$1000, finally RD$500 and of course chaos ensued. Police had to be called to restore order.

This isn't progress. It merely reinforces the status quo. Obscene really.

Agreed, terrible tradition to uphold.
 

Lambada

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Again, Lambada has provided some interesting insight. Although I tend to avoid DR politics, I am intrigued by the blatant manipulation by almost all the politicians here. The example provided by Lambada just reinforces what I have witnessed repeatedly on a local level.

If an intelligent person such as Greydread can be taken in to some extent by the marketing ploys of Leonel then I guess Leonel's handlers are doing their job effectively.

I think you probably have to live it on a daily basis, like we do, to fully understand the depths and to truly understand how the governmental spin doctors lie blatantly. Unfortunately, with the level of education many here have, the spinmeisters don't even need to be subtle. What's the betting most of those mothers lining up for the cash, actually thought it was Leonel's own money? As opposed to taxpayers' contributions.

As always, it's done to proclaim the politician's 'generosity'. Gosh here we are actually redistributing some of the STATE's money to the poor, as opposed to redistributing it via our own pockets. No concept of citizen's rights to have this money (& the rest) used for decent education, decent healthcare etc. Same with all these 'inaugurations' of a new bridge, a remodelled park etc. Politicians in other countries would get laughed out of Court if they tried to repeatedly use normal infrastructure repairs as an opportunity to blow their own trumpets.

Then there are those regional meetings which the President attends. And some of the masses turn up with their hand written placards on the back of a cardboard box, begging for the completion of their school, or the completion of their barrio clinic

It is none of it accidental. Those who facilitate the master-serf relationship know exactly what they are doing.
 

Berzin

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We as humans on this Earth do not exist in a vacuum. We are products of our environment, whatever those circumstances may be.

Every relationship we nurture has an effect on us. We do not get to choose our family nor our surroundings when we are born.

There is a certain amount of self-determination within the confines of even the most difficult of circumstances, there is no doubt about it.

But there is something obnoxiously self-righteous in simplistic and facile blanket statements such as "hard work conquers all", or "the poor are poor because they are lazy". These are not observations, they are subjective judgment calls.

These are not a mathematical formulas set in stone, but it certainly is convenient for those who choose to label the failures of others as being absolutely a matter of their own making. Again, it must be nice living in a vacuum where the external forces of everyday life have absolutely no bearing on an individual whatsoever.

Jonathan Kozol did an interview with a bunch of high school students in suburban New York where he asked them questions about the differences between them and their inner city counterparts. Some agreed that their school district had much more to offer, but collectively agreed that living in ghetto squalor and attending sub-standard school districts were no excuse for failure. Fair enough. I agree with this 100%.

Interestingly enough, not one of them would trade places with an inner city kid and attend school in the ghetto. Why? They knew attending a school in an affluent neighborhood afforded them advantages not on offer in say, Taft High School in the South Bronx.

I would have thought at least one student amongst those Kozol interviewed would have gladly accepted the challenge of putting the "theory of the hard worker toiling in sub-standard conditions and coming out on top despite it all" into practice if it were as easy as merely stating it.
 
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cobraboy

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I would have thought at least one student amongst those Kozol interviewed would have gladly accepted the challenge of putting the "theory of the hard worker toiling in sub-standard conditions and coming out on top despite it all" into practice if it were as easy as merely stating it.
Nobody says it is easy. Nobody says there are guarantees.

Nobody says life is fair. And no amount of gubmint social engineering will either make life fair or make it easy.

But one fact IS for sure: IF you don't try, IF you don't give a total effort, IF you make excuses for yourself, IF you quit, IF you wait for gubmint to bail you out...you will NOT succeed in life.

Total effort =/ success

No total effort=failure

So success DOES start with effort an willingness to do all necessary to become successful. That is the common trait within all successful people.
 

greydread

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Nice tapdance.
Your clear assertion was that the DR's politicians are proxies for the wealthy. Not powerful.
'Course often when classism and class envy are topics here ther term "powerful wealthy" is used.
It doesn't matter, really. This thread is just more 'the noble poor and downtrodden proletariat are expolited and kept down my the eeevil bourgoise" stuff.
After hearing this stuff for most of my adult life...and I'm 58...it just becomes more background noise.
I may have been born white, but I was also born ugly. We all have had a burden to carry.

Sorry Charlie.

Unlike any "handkerchief head" who may have preceded me into this World, I do not know how to tap dance, nor do I wish to learn.

DR politicians aren't the only "proxies for the wealthy". This happens all over the World. This ain't about some Trotskyesque vision of wealth and power. The points I make speak to simple truths of injustices. Simple enough for a child to understand. Many do.

I'm sorry to hear that you're burdened with being old, White and ugly. I can't help you there and as far as human tragedy becoming background noise, just to put your mind at ease, know that I'm just as unhappy about the indignities suffered by the indigenous peoples of our hemishere (aka "Indians"), Chinese immigrants who built our rail transportation infrastructure and rather than being praised were treated like dogs, Irish immigrants who were severely mistreated as they arrived to face unheralded toil and unyielding prejudice as they helped to expand the country's rails, canals and roads system and performed with distinction in Americas 19th century wars only to be denied access to equal standing with their "so called Native" peers...there are so many others..immigrants from Germany, Scandinavia, Italy, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Poland and many other places who faced mindless prejudices in trying to establish a new home in the one place that boasted it's pride in taking in and accepting immigrants and including them into the great diaspora.

Remember this?

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."


Many remember this:

"PSYCHE!"

My argument is not about me or any personal agenda (I hope yours isn't, either). It's about what's right, what's wrong and how to fix what's broken.
 

greydread

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If an intelligent person such as Greydread can be taken in to some extent by the marketing ploys of Leonel then I guess Leonel's handlers are doing their job effectively.

Hold up. I didn't say that Leonel was the "second coming". I said his policies are progressive in respect to the rest of the leadership in the Caribbean. He is a politician. They are all crooks and phonies to some degree but every once in awhile one of them gets something important accomplished. I think this guy understands that some level of accomplishment is required on the part of his administration in order to stay at the trough a little longer and the "he gets it" statement is in reference to his efforts to expand the DR's major source of income and to protect its future revenue potential. The numbers speak for themselves on this.

Have I told you guys about the Nun who died and went to heaven and after checking in with Saint Peter was seated on a donkey and guided to the modest little shack down by the creek to spend the rest of eternity? As she turned her gaze back toward the gate to hear the commotion behind her she saw the next celestial resident greeted by a band on a flowered float and a host of Angels bearing caviar and champagne. He was escorted by limousine to a grand shining mansion atop a beautiful grassy knoll to spend his eternity. The Nun approached St. Peter and asked why she, who had devoted her life's work to God's will deserved lesser accomodations than the guy on the hill. St. Peter never looked up from his book of souls as he replied, "Sister, We've got a million Nuns here. That was our first Politician".


I'm sorry about the "Mothers' Day" thing but hey...it's still the DR.
 

cobraboy

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My argument is not about me or any personal agenda (I hope yours isn't, either). It's about what's right, what's wrong and how to fix what's broken.
Is the sexual expolitation of young Dominican and Haitian women by foreigners, enabling them as prostitutes, right or wrong?
 

bob saunders

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Nobody says it is easy. Nobody says there are guarantees.

Nobody says life is fair. And no amount of gubmint social engineering will either make life fair or make it easy.

But one fact IS for sure: IF you don't try, IF you don't give a total effort, IF you make excuses for yourself, IF you quit, IF you wait for gubmint to bail you out...you will NOT succeed in life.

Total effort =/ success

No total effort=failure

So success DOES start with effort an willingness to do all necessary to become successful. That is the common trait within all successful people.

Capitalism Magazine - How Not To Be Poor
 

greydread

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Is the sexual expolitation of young Dominican and Haitian women by foreigners, enabling them as prostitutes, right or wrong?

I see this (and most else) differently from you:

Is the seduction of foreign visitors, Male AND Female by Dominican and Haitian Men AND Women for the purpose of enriching themselves right or wrong?

"Enabling" them as prostitutes? Laughable. There are Dominican prostitutes plying their trade in Europe, North, Central and South America, not to mention most of the Caribbean. Who's exploiting whom? They volunteer for this. The only reason they deal with foreigners at all is because they can squeeze more money out of them than the locals and without foreigners, sankies would be out of work.


Pick another topic.

You obviously have no regard for my judgement, yet you would ask me to judge? To what end?
 
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