57% of Dominicans live in poverty

[AZB]

first: i do not claim that rich equals happy. i just want to show that poor does not equal happy. nor dignified. but i think that money does increase happiness.
following AZB's example: would anyone here prefer to be sick and poor (and therefore oh so happy and gosh how dignified)? or would you prefer to be sick and rich? and no, do not give me a bs that money matter not in the face of the cancer because it does. rich receive better medical care, they can pay for expensive treatments, they can pay for reconstructive surgery, for medical services in most advanced hospitals all over the world.
do you know that seguro in DR does not cover chemo and radiotherapy? (most of companies on most of plans). if one is rich one can fight to the end. if one is poor - one is better of dead.
again, like AZB i come from rather poor family. my parents worked hard since childhood (they were both born to farmers). and like AZB i grew up hating being poor. my dream as a kid was to eat a whole banana/orange because i always had to share. but hell, how we grinned when having our pictures taken! but in reality my parents struggled.
please, do not get me wrong here, i do not say that rich are better class of people and poor are worthless. i just do not understand this idolization of the poor. there is nothing fantastic about having no money, believe me. in the times of my personal financial down, as an adult, i walked everywhere because i could not afford a bus. i ate bread with economy cheese for breakfast and economy pasta with economy cheese and economy ketchup for lunch. there was nothing coll about that. and sure as hell i was NOT happy

DR, as countries go is not so bad. true, the government does not help the poor but thanks god for that. can you imagine what would happen if the government offered unemployment benefits and benefits for single mothers? this country would be bankrupt within a day!
there are plenty of opportunities for the poor to advance through hard work and education. but truth be told - there is no encouragement form the government, no emphasis on the value of education.

Excellent post but watch how some people will twist your words into something totally different. How amazing, some people try to come out to be so highly intellectual yet they can't (or don't want to) grasp this simple concept.
I tell you why some posters are fascinated by poverty. Most of the same people are either married , dating or have kids with a poor dominican who come from the shacks. This is plain and simple. Some of the same people come from the hoods in USA. These people think they can fool me, I have seen too many of them to be fooled by their politically correct BS. Just go to sosua and walk into any puta bar, you will see these same poverty defenders putting money into puta economy.
AZB

 

[cobraboy]

Excellent post but watch how some people will twist your words into something totally different. How amazing, some people try to come out to be so highly intellectual yet they can't (or don't want to) grasp this simple concept.
I tell you why some posters are fascinated by poverty. Most of the same people are either married , dating or have kids with a poor dominican who come from the shacks. This is plain and simple. Some of the same people come from the hoods in USA. These people think they can fool me, I have seen too many of them to be fooled by their politically correct BS. Just go to sosua and walk into any puta bar, you will see these same poverty defenders putting money into puta economy.
AZB

Keep in mind that PC do-gooders NEED poverty and the angst of "the poor" to mobilize their socialist fantasies against the eeeeevil rich...

Once a Class Warrior, always a Class warrior...

 

[RacerX]

first: i do not claim that rich equals happy. i just want to show that poor does not equal happy. nor dignified. but i think that money does increase happiness.
following AZB's example: would anyone here prefer to be sick and poor (and therefore oh so happy and gosh how dignified)? or would you prefer to be sick and rich? and no, do not give me a bs that money matter not in the face of the cancer because it does. rich receive better medical care, they can pay for expensive treatments, they can pay for reconstructive surgery, for medical services in most advanced hospitals all over the world.
do you know that seguro in DR does not cover chemo and radiotherapy? (most of companies on most of plans). if one is rich one can fight to the end. if one is poor - one is better of dead.
again, like AZB i come from rather poor family. my parents worked hard since childhood (they were both born to farmers). and like AZB i grew up hating being poor. my dream as a kid was to eat a whole banana/orange because i always had to share. but hell, how we grinned when having our pictures taken! but in reality my parents struggled.
please, do not get me wrong here, i do not say that rich are better class of people and poor are worthless. i just do not understand this idolization of the poor. there is nothing fantastic about having no money, believe me. in the times of my personal financial down, as an adult, i walked everywhere because i could not afford a bus. i ate bread with economy cheese for breakfast and economy pasta with economy cheese and economy ketchup for lunch. there was nothing coll about that. and sure as hell i was NOT happy

DR, as countries go is not so bad. true, the government does not help the poor but thanks god for that. can you imagine what would happen if the government offered unemployment benefits and benefits for single mothers? this country would be bankrupt within a day!
there are plenty of opportunities for the poor to advance through hard work and education. but truth be told - there is no encouragement form the government, no emphasis on the value of education.

But lets be real here. There are 170 Million people in pakistan and 1.1 Billion in India. ANd dont let yourself be fooled as though they are all industrious and successful. Go there and see for yourself. Not even 0.5 of 1% of Indians will ever see outside their country. And Its the same for Pakistanis. Dont fool yourself into thinking they have mastered the tools for success when they come to the US and others didnt. What you are seeing is people who the best prepared to be successful and that is WHY they got visas. Some dude went on for days about the poverty in New Orleans. As though it was not as profitable to keep people in poverty and destitution all the while balming them for their own shortcomings(forgetting that the shortcomings were a poart of the legal system and status quo). What you are looking at is a country that loves to exploit its labor. Wealth is created somewhat by innovation by those smart enough but more often by exploitation of labor and class.
And if they chose to stay it was more liklely because that was their home and no rain was going to drive them out. Get your story right or you will retell it wrong.

You see a few Chinese, Indian, or South Asian people successful and you start drawing conclusion about their abilities. I laughed at that. What you are doing in reality is seeing sects of people(that if you think about it) are trapped/isolated/quarantined in their own fiefdoms. And manipulating those areas they are able/permitted to be successful. They have entire neighborhoods in Queens, Brooklyn, London, Toronto, Detroit. But where are they IN THE GENERAL POPULATION? Few and far in between. For every Sanjay Gupta you like to reference they are a MILLION more who havent come close to the type of affluence.

The poor here in the DOminican Republic, as I assume in India or Pakistan or Mali or any other country is subscribe dearly to a system of beliefs which upon scrutiny are detrimental to their own development. This is why the schools suck. It is by design(malice) and not my ignorance or unawreness or corruption. In my opinion, they are taught to believe and not to think. Believe in the hollow words emanating from the mouth some faggy religious dude with his fancy gold jewelry and shiny robes indoctrinating you with notions of everlasting peace when you die while you suffer among men in your life. Of course faggy sanctimony doesnt work for them only for you. I dont blame the politicians because "we all gotta get a piece of the pie". You become what you see and you are what you do, not what you say. Anybody got kids? So you learned that already.

I go to the chinese food place yesterday and they make sure they retain the whole operation between them while hiring a young dominican woman to serve the food and wipe down the table. But she "believes" this is a good thing. She couldnt be my child. And I couldnt work there. Coup de etat. Anyone who knows me knows I d muscle them Chinese people out copying all that dim sum and egg roll technology into my own place across the street. Because I "think" aint nothing you can do that I cant do better. In a world of cut-throats why do I need to be principled? That Chinese man can eat just as well with me running my own enterprise(modelled after his across the street) as he can paying me peanuts and feeding me his contempt.

Some poor people want to do better, some dont. I m tired of the ones that dont. And I m confused by them also. In my mind if you have no money and live in Santiago, I m not sure how you managed to travel to Cotui until date unknown. Either their is a budget I m not seeing or something you re misrepresenting. How do you celebrate every weekend with beer and such but your kids have no shoes? Those things get me...

And lets not start on the villianification...

 

[RacerX]

Keep in mind that PC do-gooders NEED poverty and the angst of "the poor" to mobilize their socialist fantasies against the eeeeevil rich...

Once a Class Warrior, always a Class warrior...

or maybe the rich need the poor to remain rich?

 

[corsair74]

or maybe the rich need the poor to remain rich?

Well, it seems to be the consensus that as long as the poor people are happy and content with their lot in life, then everything is okay. Kinda makes me wonder what the poor have to say about that theory. Unfortunately, keeping them happy generally means keeping them ignorant. Because an individual who is educated and knows what it is possible for them to achieve won't be anywhere near as content within their poverty.

I had a fairly privileged upbringing. Not bragging, it's simply a fact. Both of my parents are educated professionals. So they were able to provide a very good life for my sister and I, including paying for our undergraduate educations. We wanted for nothing. But while my sister and I had so much more than a lot of people we knew, we were always taught to never look down on anyone simply because they had less. And to this day, I feel that doing so lessens you as an individual.

So for me, being considerate of those with less than I has absolutely nothing to do with being politically correct. But it has everything to do with ones character. And trust me, I do believe in personal responsibility. However, I also believe that it must be balanced with a certain amount of social responsibility. It's amazing to me how some preach about one concept, yet seem to be totally ignorant of the other.

 

[cobraboy]

or maybe the rich need the poor to remain rich?

The rich need the poor to have more $$$ so they can get richer, I suppose.

An economy is not zero-sum. Wealth gets created, wealth gets destroyed. A rich guy doesn't get that way on the backs of the poor. The rich generally create their wealth.

 

[cobraboy]

So for me, being considerate of those with less than I has absolutely nothing to do with being politically correct. But it has everything to do with ones character. And trust me, I do believe in personal responsibility. However, I also believe that it must be balanced with a certain amount of social responsibility. It's amazing to me how some preach about one concept, yet seem to be totally ignorant of the other.

I know a LOT of folks considered "wealthy" either by income or by assets. I know not one who is not generous and socially responsible.

The ~manner~ of social responsibility may be different from gubmint-centrict PC do-gooders, however.

Lambada picks up drunks and druggies and puts them in a cheap apartment for a while. Cool.

JD virtually adopts a couple of young kids with astounding results.

I pay for the tuition for a few poor "at risk" girls tuition in a local private school, costs $500 a year each.

I'd rather subsidize future possibilities than past failures.

But opinions vary...

 

[Africaida]

So for me, being considerate of those with less than I has absolutely nothing to do with being politically correct. But it has everything to do with ones character. And trust me, I do believe in personal responsibility. However, I also believe that it must be balanced with a certain amount of social responsibility. It's amazing to me how some preach about one concept, yet seem to be totally ignorant of the other.

Great post Corsair :bunny:

 

[AZB]

racerX, you think all the cabbies and 7/11 workers in new york came from good families in india and pakistan who actually received real visas to travel here? hahahaha. man or man, you should not discuss this topic with me, I don't think you know more about our people and our culture more than I do. yes, many educated people came to usa but once they landed in usa, their pakistani or indian education didn't have any value. They didn't have american work experience and many didn't even speak good english. They all started from the bottom. The cabbies and many restaurant workers came with zero $$$ and little to no education and fake visas. Yes, there are still many illegal aliens living in usa. These same cabies and restaurant workers have put their kids to schools and now their kids are your bosses. The same guys are owners of businesses and make good money. Silicon valley is full of indian, pakistan millionaires. Hospitals are full of indian, pakistani doctors and surgeons. No sir, these people didn't bring their millions from their homeland. They made it in usa, working from bottom up. Compare them to other US nationals who are under the poverty levels example: people living off food stamps, living off unemployment and even people living in jails. This is considered a shame for us to live off food stamps or to in jail, yet I see this as common trend in many groups of people. Drob, vince , I don't know how you will sugar-coat this one.
All I am saying, the immigrants from pakistan and india come here with zero and then after 15+ yrs they are already respectable elements of their society. Why can't the food stamp receiving people who were born citizens in USA do the same? So your racial inequality BS doesn't stick too well with us. Now the pakistanis and muslims are all seen as terrorists yet you will see our people still succeed in life.
Buy the way, its not .1% of the population that is with some money in india and pakistan, yes we have majority of people who are poor but certainly we have a good number of people who are doing just fine there. Its the people who were not making it in those countries that came to usa to better their livelihood. The better, financially stable people prefer to live in their own respective countries. Just like in DR, the poor in pakistan and india are poor in their minds and there is little you can do to better their lives.
AZB

 

[AZB]

So for me, being considerate of those with less than I has absolutely nothing to do with being politically correct. But it has everything to do with ones character. And trust me, I do believe in personal responsibility. However, I also believe that it must be balanced with a certain amount of social responsibility. It's amazing to me how some preach about one concept, yet seem to be totally ignorant of the other.

It amazes me to see these people talk so much BS. I bet I have done more for the poor in 12 yrs of living here than you would ever do in your visits to the resort areas. I am in touch with poor everyday and I have been helping them all my life. You, on the other hand, just a pseudo robin hood who just want to gain points with the dr1ers by being politically correct. My experience come from 100% full contact with the poor in this country. Remember, I live here 24/7.
I only speak negative of poor who seek handouts or live off foreigners in exchange for money for sex or simply vagabundos who do nothing in life to advance themselves and blame their failures on system or the rich.
By the way, I still think the new orlean victims could have saved themselves if they had taken media's warnings seriously enough. remember, thousands did and left the area yet the slackers got left behind and died.
AZB

 

[Robert]

Let's make this VERY clear.

The next person that posts in this thread regarding Indians, Pakistanis, African Americans etc, will be sent on vacation.

If it's not 100% DR related, then don't post, it's a very simple rule to follow.

 

[corsair74]

Let's make this VERY clear.

The next person that posts in this thread regarding Indians, Pakistanis, African Americans etc, will be sent on vacation.

If it's not 100% DR related, then don't post, it's a very simple rule to follow.

Then I gotta ask, if this is a rule you wish to enforce, why haven't you deleted any of the posts of the person who is most guilty of bringing up the above mentioned subjects? You've been pretty free in deleting mine. And all I've done is respond to this individual.

You know, the line between moderating and enabling isn't really that fine or indistinct. Let's try to be a little more fair here.


Vince.

 

[AZB]

Vince, my last 3 posts have been deleted. So lets get back on the topic. I would like to not post on this thread, so please do not bring up my name again.
Thanks.
AZB

 

[corsair74]

Vince, my last 3 posts have been deleted. So lets get back on the topic. I would like to not post on this thread, so please do not bring up my name again.
Thanks.
AZB

No problem. Let's move on.

 

[RacerX]

The rich need the poor to have more $$$ so they can get richer, I suppose.

An economy is not zero-sum. Wealth gets created, wealth gets destroyed. A rich guy doesn't get that way on the backs of the poor. The rich generally create their wealth.[/QUOTE]


1. I dispute that. Otherwise people wouldnt be so opposed to a the living wage. Or subsidized health care or national child care or free higher education(IN THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC). Whats better for the bottom line thaN a healthy employee? He can produce more for you cant he?

2. And Robert, I only mentioned South Asians as an example that people those that immigrated were in the best conditions to be successful. They had established networks or an appropriate education. Just as those DOMINICANS that were able to manage off this island. What we are looking at is the cream of the crop(so to speak). But that is not all you need. You are still immigrating to an entirely different culture, different rules and expectations. To keep this DR related, it could also explain why there are 40,000 deportations of Dominicans from the United States for criminal offenses(which can be SERIOUSLY argued here because as a result of the Expatriation Act(and the PATRIOT ACT) a new charge was created where in the past misdemeanors would not be considered. Now Classified as Aggravated felonies, people with shoplifting, DUI, domestic violence or falsifying a offical document[lying on a tax return, or driver license application] convictions can be deported).
But now, lets not assume that just because you re not the cream of the crop that you re worthless. And that what I saying right now. Hey, the cream is good for butter and yogurt and cheese, but people still drink the milk dont they?

 

[cobraboy]

1. I dispute that. Otherwise people wouldnt be so opposed to a the living wage. Or subsidized health care or national child care or free higher education(IN THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC). Whats better for the bottom line thaN a healthy employee? He can produce more for you cant he?

One does not follow the other.

A living wage above what the market determines a job is worth KILLS jobs. Why do you think "offshoring" is done? Why do you think jobs in the Dominican Free Zones are gone...the very jobs that went from the US, to the DR, and now to SE Asia?

 

[bienamor]

One does not follow the other.

A living wage above what the market determines a job is worth KILLS jobs. Why do you think "offshoring" is done? Why do you think jobs in the Dominican Free Zones are gone...the very jobs that went from the US, to the DR, and now to SE Asia?

Agreed!

I would disagee with the statement that at least now for Dominicans that it is the cream of the crop that is immigrating. In most cases now its the family's of those lucky enough to get out before the screws tighted, as evidenced by the number of vistor visa's to either the US or Canada vs the number of applicants. Just take a trip down Independencia by the new visa medical processing point, most have family sponsering them. An applicantion for a vistor visa is in most cases a donation to the consulate.

 

[bachata]

Agreed!

I would disagee with the statement that at least now for Dominicans that it is the cream of the crop that is immigrating. In most cases now its the family's of those lucky enough to get out before the screws tighted, as evidenced by the number of vistor visa's to either the US or Canada vs the number of applicants. Just take a trip down Independencia by the new visa medical processing point, most have family sponsering them. An applicantion for a vistor visa is in most cases a donation to the consulate.

With one million Dominicans between US and Canada they should be busy.

JJ

 

[RacerX]

One does not follow the other.

A living wage above what the market determines a job is worth KILLS jobs. Why do you think "offshoring" is done? Why do you think jobs in the Dominican Free Zones are gone...the very jobs that went from the US, to the DR, and now to SE Asia?

Well, you re right they went to China for cheaper labor and labor controls. 1.3 Billion there and 1.1 Billion in India. Mexico and DR cant win that fight. But here is the problem that exists in the US from that off shoring and outsourcing, now you have people who cant afford to buy the products that you went to China to make and retail there(the US). So you extend them credit to compensate or the lowered earning and disposable income. But that is a true slippery slope. The ability to manage the credit is reliant on their job prospects being valid and fruitious in the long term. Now, no living wage, no real middle class, to support your consumer culture NOR anyone to actually save of plan on investing themselves into the ?status quo? or even supporting the system. Then you get a place like Mexico, where even though they have an Income Tax system in place legally, no one pays into it. There is no incentive. There is no middle class to buy the things that other entrepreneur could sell to them at a reasonable cost. Everything is run from appearance and podium not from substance and purpose. There are no new business or ideas being fomented or introduced that DONT COME FROM OUTSIDE(the US in Mexico?s example and Spain in the DR). Everyone is waiting for remittances. Sounds like here, too.


I am pretty sure someone said "Hey, a subway in Santo Domingo, what a stupid idea! In Santiago, even stupider" I d advocate for a real omnibus transit system, which would employ THOUSANDS of people and also professionalize transportation in the larger cities. And its so easy to do, that surely someone must have lost their job for recommending something so cost effective. And seriously we all know what changed poverty in the 20th Century US was that good secure job that allowed to progress into the middle class, buy a home on credit, a car on credit, use home equity to start a business, and also to have peace of mind that you and yoru job could send your child to college. Initially they were make work jobs under FDR but they also made the country better by implementing these massive public work projects. We could use of that here in DR. Highways, reservoirs, schools, etc. All need to be built and administrators to operate and faciliate them.

Im tired of lazy poor folk also but I want to offer solutions vs. vitriol.

The reason why the visa list is insurmountable unless you have a familial sponsor is because there are no skills here that the Dominicans possess that are in great need in the United States. But there must be something here because exploitation just doesnt have that same sizzle if I cant make a dollar off of it, right?

 

[RacerX]

Agreed!

I would disagee with the statement that at least now for Dominicans that it is the cream of the crop that is immigrating. In most cases now its the family's of those lucky enough to get out before the screws tighted, as evidenced by the number of vistor visa's to either the US or Canada vs the number of applicants. Just take a trip down Independencia by the new visa medical processing point, most have family sponsering them. An applicantion for a vistor visa is in most cases a donation to the consulate.

Ok, so no creamy crop. I concede that. But even if they are not the cream of the crop at least they got a shot at the big time. What if they could make the big time here? There d be no need to go. At least not for salvation. Even still you dont have to be from another country to see that. We all know who is on the $100 bill is Benjamin Franklin(who was never a President but all of the other money has only presidents on it. Plus he-it being the largest denomination allowed in general circulation. So the guy must have been a "big wig", pun intended). Who knew or could anticipate the reversal of fortunes he d experience in American history simply by moving from Boston to Philadelphia? What was it about Philly than he didnt get in Boston? Must have been something grandiose, no? So if a guy makes his way north for Orlando from San Pedro de Macoris regardless of whether he ll see greener pastures, there is possibly a very astute talent that has left the DR.
There has to be more in store than exportation of labor?