57% of Dominicans live in poverty

[DMV123]

Mike you make some very good points with great examples.

I think the overwhelming point is that no one can judge THIS country by the standards set out there!

Like Mike I know families who live well on 15,000RD a month, earned legally. They work hard and they play hard and they are comfortable by THEIR standards. Do they want a bigger TV and a nicer Yipetta??? who knows but by looking at them and their lifestyle they are happy.

I also know families here who are supposed upper middle class - NOT happy and constantly fighting to get that next better vehicle etc etc.

Overwhelmingly the people in this country live in poverty. Fact. But we live in paradise. The rest well my guess is all but 5 or 6 % of the rest live paycheck to paycheck at whatever standard of living they are at.

 

[greydread]

There is nothing wrong with give a hand up, but there is plenty wrong with giving a handout. Usually that hand turns around and bites you in the AZZ.

That's exactly what I've been talking about. Reinvestment in human resources is not the same as welfare checks or socialism as some would opine. A few here have espoused the "let them eat cake" economic theory and that won't help either. I don't advocate taking anything away from someone who's earned it to give their wealth away to those who don't deserve it. My point has been that the small percentage of those who own most everything in the DR should invest in their nation's human resources expecting a great return on their investment as the result will improve the standard of living, crime rate, general societal order and future economic outlook for all.

Imagine a Dominican Republic with a 5% unemployment rate, potable drinking water delivered to every residence, along with reliable power, a well regulated and maintained national highway system, reliable and well organized emergency services, a public school system with a 90%+ graduation rate and a 50%+ college admissions rate. This is going to take a lot of imagination but you've got to start somewhere and the investment has great potential to vastly improve the lives and fortunes of the investors.

 

[RacerX]

That's exactly what I've been talking about. Reinvestment in human resources is not the same as welfare checks or socialism as some would opine. A few here have espoused the "let them eat cake" economic theory and that won't help either. I don't advocate taking anything away from someone who's earned it to give their wealth away to those who don't deserve it. My point has been that the small percentage of those who own most everything in the DR should invest in their nation's human resources expecting a great return on their investment as the result will improve the standard of living, crime rate, general societal order and future economic outlook for all.

Imagine a Dominican Republic with a 5% unemployment rate, potable drinking water delivered to every residence, along with reliable power, a well regulated and maintained national highway system, reliable and well organized emergency services, a public school system with a 90%+ graduation rate and a 50%+ college admissions rate. This is going to take a lot of imagination but you've got to start somewhere and the investment has great potential to vastly improve the lives and fortunes of the investors.

a man for every job and a job for every man
a. viable school transportation system
b. " public transit system
c. fire department and emergency services
d. school teachers and school
e. food protection program

I see it

 

[greydread]

a man for every job and a job for every man
a. viable school transportation system
b. " public transit system
c. fire department and emergency services
d. school teachers and school
e. food protection program

I see it

It's been done using tourism $$ before albeit on a much smaller scale in the Dutch islands. The citizens of Aruba live better than most of the people who come to visit them.

If tourist doesn't work there's always gold:

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/ec...es-discovery-of-new-gold-zone-in-Dominican-NW

 

[dv8]

My point has been that the small percentage of those who own most everything in the DR should invest in their nation's human resources expecting a great return on their investment as the result will improve the standard of living, crime rate, general societal order and future economic outlook for all.

no, they should not, my fellow. this is a job of a government. not the rich.

 

[DRob]

no, they should not, my fellow. this is a job of a government. not the rich.

Government does that by taxation, so it - of course - involves people.

One of the reasons expats and locals have a "cultural divide" is because some (not all) expats can be just so dang selfish, only concerned about what's six inches in front of their nose, without a care for a social legacy.

It's like retirees who denounce property taxes to pay for schools because they no longer have kids in public school. Even if you have to squint, it's often worthwhile to take the long view on such things.

Geez.

 

[DMV123]

Well said DRob

 

[MikeFisher]

Government does that by taxation, so it - of course - involves people.

One of the reasons expats and locals have a "cultural divide" is because some (not all) expats can be just so dang selfish, only concerned about what's six inches in front of their nose, without a care for a social legacy.

It's like retirees who denounce property taxes to pay for schools because they no longer have kids in public school. Even if you have to squint, it's often worthwhile to take the long view on such things.

Geez.

right,
and while it is of course a gubmint thingy to invest in it's people,
it also is in the interest of the rich to make such investments, and they usually do and understand/know why they do so, with own interests in mind of course, nothing wrong on that, nobody would invest in anything with no outlook on anything in return.
Mike

 

[Acira]

right,
and while it is of course a gubmint thingy to invest in it's people,
it also is in the interest of the rich to make such investments, and they usually do and understand/know why they do so, with own interests in mind of course, nothing wrong on that, nobody would invest in anything with no outlook on anything in return.Mike

Somewhere deep hidden lays the brilliant idea of a genious economist who wanted to impose taxes on every penny that rolls around in the world. Never took off that idea, can you imagine what general world income that would give without really hurting anybodies pocket?

 

[bienamor]

Somewhere deep hidden lays the brilliant idea of a genious economist who wanted to impose taxes on every penny that rolls around in the world. Never took off that idea, can you imagine what general world income that would give without really hurting anybodies pocket?

That only works as long as the ones making the money and paying the taxes continue working. Eventually the ones working figure out that they are supporting the ones that don't and they start easing off. Then the ones not working stop receiving benefits, and become unhappy with the ones that were working. And no one can figure out why things are in the toilet.
An thats why your genius economist will stay hidden.

 

[dv8]

Government does that by taxation, so it - of course - involves people.

i pay my taxes. so there, my share of work for the poor has been done.

 

[Acira]

That only works as long as the ones making the money and paying the taxes continue working. Eventually the ones working figure out that they are supporting the ones that don't and they start easing off. Then the ones not working stop receiving benefits, and become unhappy with the ones that were working. And no one can figure out why things are in the toilet.
An thats why your genius economist will stay hidden.

Nope, this plan stay's hidden because it concirns taxes on money not earned by labour but money that is going around on stock markets, the "virtual" money which really drives the economy.

 

[mountainannie]

I have hestitated to jump in here ... because ... well... I have been to Haiti.. and anyone who has been to Haiti just comes back here and says "WHAT an incredibly rich county~!"

It is like when I go back to the States and end up with this tape running in my head "These people can drink the water from their taps and they can flush their toilet paper, why are they not dancing?"

Or
when I stand in line at the bank here.. which is about the ONLY place in the country where there is no music and the people are not smiling and singing... and I will have my ipod on and share it with someone,.. and start tapping my feet .. and ask why there is no music... and suggest that HEY maybe we should all be happier... since WE are in the BANK which means WE HAVE MONEY

OK I do not do that in the Capital.. well, at least not in
Malecon Center

only maybe up in Diamond Mall
mostly in places like
Matas de Farfan

and Las Terrenas

where folks still got a sense of humor...

poverty?

try the projects in the Bronx

 

[greydread]

That only works as long as the ones making the money and paying the taxes continue working. Eventually the ones working figure out that they are supporting the ones that don't and they start easing off. Then the ones not working stop receiving benefits, and become unhappy with the ones that were working. And no one can figure out why things are in the toilet.
An thats why your genius economist will stay hidden.

I think that you may have just described the Greek economy. When I stated that the DR's wealthy should invest in the available human resources I wasn't talking about funding public schools, paving roads and laying pipes. I was looking toward the models of the most successful US companies (Lockheed Martin, Intel, etc) who offer a wide range of benefits to their employees such as tuition reimbursement, on site, professional continuing technical and administrative training and the like. You know, investing in their work force.

This type of investment in the workforce enables promotion from within, promotes loyalty and honesty within the workforce and reduces the need to contract off shore technical talent when it's time for infrastructure upgrades or equipment repairs. Instead, most Dominican employers seem to pay their employees just enough to keep them from quitting and the employees, in turn do just enough work to keep from getting fired. That's no way to pursue prosperity.

 

[Acira]

I think that you may have just described the Greek economy. When I stated that the DR's wealthy should invest in the available human resources I wasn't talking about funding public schools, paving roads and laying pipes. I was looking toward the models of the most successful US companies (Lockheed Martin, Intel, etc) who offer a wide range of benefits to their employees such as tuition reimbursement, on site, professional continuing technical and administrative training and the like. You know, investing in their work force.

This type of investment in the workforce enables promotion from within, promotes loyalty and honesty within the workforce and reduces the need to contract off shore technical talent when it's time for infrastructure upgrades or equipment repairs. Instead, most Dominican employers seem to pay their employees just enough to keep them from quitting and the employees, in turn do just enough work to keep from getting fired. That's no way to pursue prosperity.

This type of investment...

can promote loyalty
can promote honesty

My experience is that 85 % of the working population is not ambitious, just want a nice salary to maintain their living standard, all extra's are welcome ofcourse but they are certainly not loyal and vice versa the company isn't also because when it really comes to a point, the company has to listen to its shareholders and if they are not pleased, the company shuts down some of its assets...been there, seen it happen

 

[greydread]

This type of investment...

can promote loyalty
can promote honesty

My experience is that 85 % of the working population is not ambitious, just want a nice salary to maintain their living standard, all extra's are welcome ofcourse but they are certainly not loyal and vice versa the company isn't also because when it really comes to a point, the company has to listen to its shareholders and if they are not pleased, the company shuts down some of its assets...been there, seen it happen

Yup. With great opportunity comes a measure of responsibility on the employees part as well. As with the big, successful companies mentioned previously, the squeaky wheels don't get oiled. They get replaced. Employees are evaluated against career goals which are developed during their last evaluation and their effort determines their suitability for retention, promotion, etc.

No company should ever follow a policy of reinvestment where the returns cannot be measured. If I was a stockholder I'd pull my money out too if the company couldn't properly manage this. Some people are meant to drive taxi's, clean hotel rooms and sell azz, that's just the way life is. I am concerned with the potential employees who are underserved by the educational system yet have the ability and drive to succeed, given the opportunity. Companies which manage to properly incentivize the work force and promote longevity of service and retention of institutional knowledge almost always make more money for their shareholders than those which do not.

 

[NALs]

This type of investment...

can promote loyalty
can promote honesty

My experience is that 85 % of the working population is not ambitious, just want a nice salary to maintain their living standard, all extra's are welcome ofcourse but they are certainly not loyal and vice versa the company isn't also because when it really comes to a point, the company has to listen to its shareholders and if they are not pleased, the company shuts down some of its assets...been there, seen it happen

Don't forget that its quite common for the best employees to receive much investment from their company in the hopes of improving their productivity, only for the company to see such employee apply for a visa to X, Y or Z country and then leave with the company not seeing a return on its investment.

How much incentive will any company have to invest in people that, due to psychological cultural conditioning that induces emigration even among well educated Dominicans - this is why the emigration problem for the DR is more often categorized as structural since improvement in well being often doesn't results in lower emigration rates - will leave upon receiving a visa. And the better educated a Dominican is, the more appealing he/she becomes and the greater the probability they will get a visa to a foreign country.

 

[Acira]

Don't forget that its quite common for the best employees to receive much investment from their company in the hopes of improving their productivity, only for the company to see such employee apply for a visa to X, Y or Z country and then leave with the company not seeing a return on its investment.

How much incentive will any company have to invest in people that, due to psychological cultural conditioning that induces emigration even among well educated Dominicans - this is why the emigration problem for the DR is more often categorized as structural since improvement in well being often doesn't results in lower emigration rates - will leave upon receiving a visa. And the better educated a Dominican is, the more appealing he/she becomes and the greater the probability they will get a visa to a foreign country.

Sure, I agree with you on the first part but thats the companies risk to take and a good HR program to really calculate that in.

The second part...I tend to think that a company will not invest a lot in a country where - as you say - its a "psychological cultural conditioning that induces emigration".
Maybe you can explain to me a bit more what that really means to you : "psychological cultural conditioning"?

 

[MikeFisher]

Nope, this plan stay's hidden because it concirns taxes on money not earned by labour but money that is going around on stock markets, the "virtual" money which really drives the economy.

the one which drives the economy that is a$$down actually and for a while?
Mike

 

[MikeFisher]

Somewhere deep hidden lays the brilliant idea of a genious economist who wanted to impose taxes on every penny that rolls around in the world. Never took off that idea, can you imagine what general world income that would give without really hurting anybodies pocket?

disagreement from my side,
to invest, a smart person always has something in mind to get in return, and if that lil thingy would be just the good feeling of the neighbour, it does not necessarily mean to be a return in cash.
if Somalians would've been happy at that time nobody would have slaughtered childrens with machetes on the streets.
but some bigshot failed to make an investment on time i guess,
at least it didn't look like an wise calculated invest at my last visit there back in the day.
money in the pocket feels good, yeah.
to put the bucks on a clearly winning horse makes the guy doing the bet to feel as a real winner, of course yes,
but the one with the brain for a thought further than til the next lottery draw or the next simple decade or two of finances for a country would just get tears in his eyes to see such folks making investments, the tears about the great Lehmans are still running.
the real guys with a real brain to have a real vision think very different,
i just wish the world would have more of the few.
Mike