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57% of Dominicans live in poverty
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Where in the world do you get the idea that the DR is one of the three poorest countries in Western Hemisphere? By what measure, exactly? By most measures, the three poorest nations in this hemisphere are Haiti, Bolivia, and Nicaragua.
You are quite selective in your recall of history. Idi Amin did indeed receive initial support from England as he had been an officer in the British army, but he nor his regime was supported by the USA. People like Robert Mugabe were wolves in sheeps clothing- every he does is for Robert Mugabe. Any gravy that goes to others is so he can stay in power. Ask the other tribes in Zim if they have benifited from his expropiations. If you know your history you'll know that Bautista was elected twice, and history will find him less cruel that the Castros. The Castro regimes best friends are the Americans because they can use the red herring that they are at war with America and the American Embargo is the cause of all hardships to cover up their massive economic policy failures.
I'm so glad you asked....
Thank you for asking that very appropriate question. The individual human factor is the individual quest for professional excellence and the will to succeed. Many of the .com bazillionaires were college dropouts who saw past the old "earn a degree to get a good job" paradigm and invented the "market your dream to create jobs and wealth" paradigm. There were guys (Mark Cuban, Dan Snyder, Dennis Albaugh, Wally "Famous" Amos, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Russell Simmons) whose companies flourished in the 80's- 90's on money borrowed from credit cards. This not only happened in the techno biz but we saw the same type of entrepreneurial spirit in the entertainment buziness, especially typefied by Robert Townsend's "Hollywood Shuffle" where the lack of job availability for minority actors turned into his $20M expression of frustration through comedy. He ran up a $25,000 credit card bill to produce the movie and his costars worked on faith (and lunch). Bob Johnson started BET in the early '80s with $15,000 and sold it to Viacom for $4 Billion. Examples abound. Beisbol and Bachata are not the only paths to new wealth in the Dominican Republic.
I know a few Dominicans who have escaped the narrow and futureless "opportunities" available to them in the hospitality industry there to start their own businesses providing necessary services to that same industry and they're making multiples of what they would have continued to earn on salary there because they used their experience to identify needs and move quickly to fill those needs. There will be more of this and as the services provided become more complex and required broader capitalization the DR's wealthy should be the first to jump on the bandwagons with funding for startup companies. The government should offer incentives for this kind of internal investment. That's how the model I described works. Seriously, Al Gore didn't "invent" the internet but he was the Clinton Administration's Front Man on the effort to enable it by providing the infrastructure and bandwidth mentioned in my last post. Thusly, we're having this discussion now.
Elected officials and civil servants can't turn the DR's fate and neither can the workers nor the wealthy business owners. They will have to do this in concert because it is in their collective best interests to do so. How they choose to do it doesn't really matter because as long as everyone does their part there will be plenty of success to go around. You can put a cage around your money and watch it devalue or you can put it to work for you and watch it grow....in your own backyard.
Where is the individual human factor in all of this?
Great post btw
Thank you for asking that very appropriate question. The individual human factor is the individual quest for professional excellence and the will to succeed. Many of the .com bazillionaires were college dropouts who saw past the old "earn a degree to get a good job" paradigm and invented the "market your dream to create jobs and wealth" paradigm. There were guys (Mark Cuban, Dan Snyder, Dennis Albaugh, Wally "Famous" Amos, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Russell Simmons) whose companies flourished in the 80's- 90's on money borrowed from credit cards. This not only happened in the techno biz but we saw the same type of entrepreneurial spirit in the entertainment buziness, especially typefied by Robert Townsend's "Hollywood Shuffle" where the lack of job availability for minority actors turned into his $20M expression of frustration through comedy. He ran up a $25,000 credit card bill to produce the movie and his costars worked on faith (and lunch). Bob Johnson started BET in the early '80s with $15,000 and sold it to Viacom for $4 Billion. Examples abound. Beisbol and Bachata are not the only paths to new wealth in the Dominican Republic.
I know a few Dominicans who have escaped the narrow and futureless "opportunities" available to them in the hospitality industry there to start their own businesses providing necessary services to that same industry and they're making multiples of what they would have continued to earn on salary there because they used their experience to identify needs and move quickly to fill those needs. There will be more of this and as the services provided become more complex and required broader capitalization the DR's wealthy should be the first to jump on the bandwagons with funding for startup companies. The government should offer incentives for this kind of internal investment. That's how the model I described works. Seriously, Al Gore didn't "invent" the internet but he was the Clinton Administration's Front Man on the effort to enable it by providing the infrastructure and bandwidth mentioned in my last post. Thusly, we're having this discussion now.
Elected officials and civil servants can't turn the DR's fate and neither can the workers nor the wealthy business owners. They will have to do this in concert because it is in their collective best interests to do so. How they choose to do it doesn't really matter because as long as everyone does their part there will be plenty of success to go around. You can put a cage around your money and watch it devalue or you can put it to work for you and watch it grow....in your own backyard.
2 great psost, Greydread,
but I disagree on one point of the 1st post.
germany after WWII did sure not build up again on outside/foreign Brain nor leadership nor such smartness.
they built up again and went to today's top of the Globe by their own hard work, with technologies developed by German Brains in German Univercities, they never needed to send anybody over the Atlantic to learn something not already known at home in college.
just look on where so many hightech developments including in the for some countries so Vital Weapons Industries came from, Brainwise.
under foreign influence/leadership Germany would still bring War to the world and need a calculator to Sum up 2+2.
I completely agree to the consens of those postings, they are straight to the point.
Mike
but I disagree on one point of the 1st post.
germany after WWII did sure not build up again on outside/foreign Brain nor leadership nor such smartness.
they built up again and went to today's top of the Globe by their own hard work, with technologies developed by German Brains in German Univercities, they never needed to send anybody over the Atlantic to learn something not already known at home in college.
just look on where so many hightech developments including in the for some countries so Vital Weapons Industries came from, Brainwise.
under foreign influence/leadership Germany would still bring War to the world and need a calculator to Sum up 2+2.
I completely agree to the consens of those postings, they are straight to the point.
Mike
Mike,
I didn't mean to imply that either Germany or Japan had anybody come in and build a country for them. What the foreign influence did was to rebuild destroyed infrastructure and guide economic development during the occupation of these countries. This was the first instance of progressive foreign occupation in modern history. The plans for Volkswagen, for instance were already developed as were many other uniquely home grown technological ideas but the steel plants and factories which were destroyed during the war along with the transportation infrastructure were rebuilt under the occupation (in both countries) to be far more efficient than anything seen before them.
The great U.S. business minds of their time (who couldn't find a serious audience amongst the major American industrialists of their day) went on to guide the development of manufacturing sectors in the "occupied" nations which would eventually prove superior to their American counterparts.
1. For an economy to work, people have to be able to buy things. If people have the means to buy stuff, this automatically means the "stuff sold" will generate income and work for other people.
The majority of the people here have an average wage of around 8,000 RDS, this is only sufficient to feed the family, pay the rent of a shack and the utility bill.
This also means it does not leave them any space to pay or buy for luxury goods like TV, dining out, moto, Internet, etc... which are exactly the things which make the local economy turn.
2. If the governement would give incentives to local business propositions, giving creative people the chance to start up their own business on low interest loans, preferably secured by the government, this could create an upwards spiral in local economy, providing jobs for a number of people and creating income for those people which they in return would spend on other local economy.
3. The Hospitality business at this moment depends unfortunately on the tourism, largerly depending on foreigners. As this business depends largerly on these foreign countries which are suffering economically them selves, this is a very insecure income. It is vital for the DR that people find or create income not dependend on the hospitality business.
To really sum things up...as long as creative minds and the educated people of the DR still feel, and unfortunately know, they can make more money and a better life out of the DR, they will leave and not contribute to the DR's progress.
The majority of the people here have an average wage of around 8,000 RDS, this is only sufficient to feed the family, pay the rent of a shack and the utility bill.
This also means it does not leave them any space to pay or buy for luxury goods like TV, dining out, moto, Internet, etc... which are exactly the things which make the local economy turn.
2. If the governement would give incentives to local business propositions, giving creative people the chance to start up their own business on low interest loans, preferably secured by the government, this could create an upwards spiral in local economy, providing jobs for a number of people and creating income for those people which they in return would spend on other local economy.
3. The Hospitality business at this moment depends unfortunately on the tourism, largerly depending on foreigners. As this business depends largerly on these foreign countries which are suffering economically them selves, this is a very insecure income. It is vital for the DR that people find or create income not dependend on the hospitality business.
To really sum things up...as long as creative minds and the educated people of the DR still feel, and unfortunately know, they can make more money and a better life out of the DR, they will leave and not contribute to the DR's progress.
you folks are getting all too abstract in here. we are talking about DR and Dr reality. and the reality is that you can take the horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
many poor people in DR do not appreciate the value of education nor the value of hard work thus they will remain poor regardless of the blessing the fate may bestow upon them.
one of our workers has a friend who inherited 3 million pesos and wasted (i cannot really call it "spending") in three months. he bought expensive motor (sold now), jeep (sold now) and a truck (still there) but he has not bought a house (a basic need, i'd think for all humans is to have safe shelter) or on anything of value (cars do not count as they lose value as soon as you drive them out the door of a salon) like a small business that could sustain him and his family.
now, i have full understanding for someone who want to have fun, but fun i can have - i have a house, cars and secure living so i can turn into entertainment having satisfied the basics. one would think that someone poor would see a chance in this 3 million pesos to break out of the poverty and live a normal life giving his family a chance - sending kids to school and getting medicine for parents.
many poor people in DR do not appreciate the value of education nor the value of hard work thus they will remain poor regardless of the blessing the fate may bestow upon them.
one of our workers has a friend who inherited 3 million pesos and wasted (i cannot really call it "spending") in three months. he bought expensive motor (sold now), jeep (sold now) and a truck (still there) but he has not bought a house (a basic need, i'd think for all humans is to have safe shelter) or on anything of value (cars do not count as they lose value as soon as you drive them out the door of a salon) like a small business that could sustain him and his family.
now, i have full understanding for someone who want to have fun, but fun i can have - i have a house, cars and secure living so i can turn into entertainment having satisfied the basics. one would think that someone poor would see a chance in this 3 million pesos to break out of the poverty and live a normal life giving his family a chance - sending kids to school and getting medicine for parents.
For the one example, rightfully, you give here, there are a hundred others who would really take that opportunity and make good and lasting fortune with it.
And I know of a family in Europe, pretty well educated, middle class family who won a fortune with the lottery and spend it all in two months time, really this has nothing to do with being poor but just being stupid.
Thats also basic back to earth.
Thank you for saying that.
How many stories are there in the U.S. about people winning tens or hundreds of millions in the lottery, only to be broke and back in the trailer within a few years? That doesn't apply to everyone here, and shouldn't apply to every Dominican.
Seriously, does anyone here think that education and opportunity would be completely wasted on struggling Dominicans? It's a little harsh to condemn a 5 year old because she committed the awful sin of being born poor.
yes, guys, but the position i described is a prevailing attitude of poor dominicans, maybe because they simply do not know what to do with money once they have it.
what i am saying here is that you blame the system, the government, anything. i blame the people.
what i am saying here is that you blame the system, the government, anything. i blame the people.
wrong DV8,
it is not typical poor Dominican,
it is simply typical stupids,
and those you find in the same large percentage in the USA, in Poland, in Germany and in any other country.
a longer while back I''ve been reading a book about the many German Lotto Millionaires of that Time and what finally happened to them/what they made out of their big Hit.
the short answer is simply: Stupid.
if People are uneducated due leak of access to good education,
yes, then I blame the System, the Gubmint, the Everything.
within every country there's the Lazy Crowd which will never make it to anything significant, and if you give people of that crowd a million cash in the Hand they will blow it in a short timeperiod and end up with debts soon, but that Crowd exists within every Country, even with a old and Top educational System there are stupid Germans wandering on the streets of Berlin, you find east european hookers on St Pauli's Mile, Italian Lotto Millionaires who just by a Ferrari and set it into the next Wall,
that's usual for all countries and nothing DR specific.
if a Country has too big of a crowd which is uneducated and Poor,
then the Failure lies primarly by the upper Mid and 1st Class Citizens of that Country,
because those stupids failed to provide their Country with a educational system that betters all levels within that Country,
and such would of course bring themselves large benefits on the long term due more efficient productions, smarter workers/employees etc etc.
Upper Classes in a Country who complain about Stupids in their own Country are IMHO the real Stupids,
because they failed completely to run their Country in a smart way so it would bring them also benefits in the Future.
Mike
and every thing else that precedes and succedes.Chicken and egg. A given geography has to have resources enough to afford an edumacational system.
We must have gone to different schools.
Whatever.
Yeah man, i think by now it's obvious we went to different schools. We are speaking different languages. It's a useless exercise.
:surprised
Thanks DRBob. Was beginning to think I was speaking martian...Your supporting details and development of the idea is awesome.
the average DR family earns so little, they are lucky if they can feed themselves, pay for their "housing", and for utility...
The education offered for the average family here is of such low quality, and therefore not really an incentive to take this education serious...
Basic economy is simple... give people money... and they will spend it on the local economy...
This may sound stupid... but if "the rich" would give "the poor" a "decent" salary here, they would spend it on the local economy, which would grow, and in turn provide employment... and the economy would grow... This is a basic fact of economy in general, and you just have to keep it under control... (where a lot of first world countries failed and are now reaping the results...)
Education here is the real problem... I have never seen a country where calculators are so abused, simply because the majority of the people cannot count (my local colmado is owned by a great, and sweet lady... but pls do not bring back 9 empty bottles of coke, and only buying 7 new ones, as she does not know how to calculate this... even with big effort on her part, and me explaining it...), and I hate to say this, but her daughters are even worse...
Education should be a right for every person on earth... and the fact that every child here in the DR has to go to school till the age of 18 can only be applauded... if the education received was of any value...
The private schools, offering decent education here, are inaccessible for the average person here... and in reality only offer "better off" families a chance to give their children a better future...
So, first of all the government has a big job and responsability ahead of it... improving education...
But secondly... maybe all those well-meaning missionaries, expats, foreigners, etc... (including myself...), should start concentrating on this problem, and helping out there... in whatever way one of us can...
And last, but certainly not least, convince the children we may help to get a decent education, to use this knowledge here, and not to make big bucks somewhere else (and this will be the hardest part...)
Belgiank
The education offered for the average family here is of such low quality, and therefore not really an incentive to take this education serious...
Basic economy is simple... give people money... and they will spend it on the local economy...
This may sound stupid... but if "the rich" would give "the poor" a "decent" salary here, they would spend it on the local economy, which would grow, and in turn provide employment... and the economy would grow... This is a basic fact of economy in general, and you just have to keep it under control... (where a lot of first world countries failed and are now reaping the results...)
Education here is the real problem... I have never seen a country where calculators are so abused, simply because the majority of the people cannot count (my local colmado is owned by a great, and sweet lady... but pls do not bring back 9 empty bottles of coke, and only buying 7 new ones, as she does not know how to calculate this... even with big effort on her part, and me explaining it...), and I hate to say this, but her daughters are even worse...
Education should be a right for every person on earth... and the fact that every child here in the DR has to go to school till the age of 18 can only be applauded... if the education received was of any value...
The private schools, offering decent education here, are inaccessible for the average person here... and in reality only offer "better off" families a chance to give their children a better future...
So, first of all the government has a big job and responsability ahead of it... improving education...
But secondly... maybe all those well-meaning missionaries, expats, foreigners, etc... (including myself...), should start concentrating on this problem, and helping out there... in whatever way one of us can...
And last, but certainly not least, convince the children we may help to get a decent education, to use this knowledge here, and not to make big bucks somewhere else (and this will be the hardest part...)
Belgiank
Yes, everyone is a victim. Es no mi culpa. Poor? not my fault, I'm a victim. Didn't get hired for a job? I'm a victim, not my fault. Didn't go to sschool, didn't pay attention in class, didn't do my homework? Not my fault, I'm a victim. Spent my family's food budget on presidentes and lottery tickets? Hey, not my fault, I'm a victim. It's great tell everyone they are a victim and all their ills aren't they're fault and they will never accept responsibility for themselves.
The fact that the education system is poor is an inpediment to having a good education, but this is not why a person suceeds or not. My wife has two degrees from UASD, plus more education here in Canada but it is not just her education that has brought her modest success, but her drive from an early age. I've met life long friends of hers and they all say the same, that she belived she would be successful through hard work and sacrifice. Other than those that inherit their wealth or sell drugs the majority of people that are sucessful did it through hard work and sacrifice. Many, many Dominicans that get no publicity send their kids to the public school, or Catholic school or small privates schools like my wifes( which is around $3000 pesos per year, supplies included). The children that apply themselves, suceed and have the opportunity to go to university. UASD is cheap and only the very very poor can not afford to go. What is missing from Dominican Education is teaching Critical thinking. For the education system to suceed the parents, above all, must take it serious, by insisting that the schools perform and that their children do also. The partnership between parents and teachers is very very important. My wife loses teachers to the public system almost every year because they want to get on the ghovwernment gravy train and where they don't have to perform to a standard. Yris makes them prove that they are teaching to HER standard. It is amazing that the majority of teachers I've met do not know how to properly produce an exam.
DV8, you are wasting you time here. Most of these expats who are beating this horse to death don't really live here or have little time living here or just live in expat communities. Its quite clear they have no idea of how the poverty culture works here. It's only a wishful thinking on their part: how DR should be but it has nothing to do with how DR is (in reality). All we are seeing is how much these folks know about world events from africa to cuba to famous dictators in the world, but I wonder, how much it has to do with the reality in DR? Nice google searched knowledge but sorry, all this is not worth beans to the dominicans.
We are the people who live here and interact with poor dominicans on daily basis for years. We know how these people act, think and breed. You folks have no idea. Its best you listen to us now than later because no matter how you folks will try to paint it, the reality will not change over time. The poor dominicans care less for your ideals, they will continue to live the same way.
This thread has become from comical to boring to simply pathetic. You folks need a better hobby than to bore us with the useless googled knowledge. Its simply borrrring!!! No wonder so many fo you have no real girlfriends or boyfriends. Is this how you converse with dominicans? God help you.
Now let the poor be poor in peace.
AZB
Why pay a higher salary than the market demands?
Do YOU pay higher salaries and prices? Don't YOU seek the best "value", i.e. the highest perceived quality/price ratio? That is what consumers do. That is what makes a "market."
Higher salaries, whether artificial or market-based, create higher prices which suppresses demand resulting in LESS products being sold and LESS employment.
Employment decreases every time the minimum wage is raised. One reason Free Zone jobs, once a staple of the recent DR economy, went away is BECAUSE gubmint raised compensation and increased regulations within them, driving manufactures elsewhere, and those jobs are NOT coming back! So, yes, ~some~ workers there earn more, but the FZ's in the DR are now dead zones, killed off in a matter of just a few years. The same is true for Call Centers! And this happened BEFORE the world economic collapse!
Baloney, Peter. I use a calculator and I can count. A calculator is just a tool.belgiank said:
There is PLENTY of edumacation here. Every kid is required to go to school, just like every kid in the ghetto of Europe and North America has to go to school.
But requiring a kid to go to school has nothing to do with personal and family accountability and getting their child to maximize the experience, just like first world ghettos. It has nothing to do with the cultural baggage that devalues edumacation, hard work, thrift, planning for the future and personal dilligence. Think horse-to-water/drink.
Additionally, the opportunities are LIMITED even for those with edumacation. Look around! This is a small country! There just aren't many opportunities for folks, even if they WANTED a good job and prepared themselves through edumacation! Underemployment is as much of a problem in the Dominican Republic as unemployment is!
There is poverty here because there are 10,000,000 people on a small island with limited resources (there are plenty of human resources here.) Folks saying that good gubmint or edumacation can raise GDP to levels of the first world have no idea what that entails. Their faith in human institutions is sadly misplaced. You just cannot "institute" jobs and economies by feel-good fiat.
Look: expats come here largely because it's tropical and cheap. Well, it's not so cheap anymore with costs rising here and the devaluation of some currencies. So we see...even on DR1...folks living under economic duress, unable to make a living here as they did where they came from, bailing and going home. This further depresses a stressed economy even further, some places more than others. Raising salaries for social reasons-beyond market conditions-just makes the problem even worse.
You know, it irritates me to have First Worlders come...or worse, visit...this country, and begin to tell the citizens what to do and how to do it. Yet not one opts for citizenship so they can actually PARTICIPATE within the "system" of governamce here. It's easier to bitch and complain and tell someone else how to dig that ditch in the sun while sitting in the First World shade.
It's so much easier to tell the poor, ignorant natives what they're doing wrong...
Here is a Fact of Life: the culture, gubmint and economy of the Dominican Republic will change when the collective political will of the PEOPLE choose to change, and not a nanosecond before.
Hell, the UN, IMF and World Banks are constantly giving the DR gubmint demands to change, with little success. A bunch of whining expats and tourists aren't even heard...
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