A thief bites the dust. street justice.

[AZB]

larry, I think the video doesn't cover all the beating he had received. The video camera started to roll when he was already knocked out cold. When he woke up, he received a bit more kicks and punches but I have a feeling he was served right earlier. There were people saying "lets just kill him".
AZB

 

[Rocky]

I get what you and everyone else are saying about crime, but now I have put myself in the victims's shoes and if it was me on the street and that kid tried to steal my cell phone, I still do not believe that I would want to see that horrific site on the street. I think that I would even try to go to his aid even though he tried to steal my cell phone (provided my safety would not be at risk by the crazy mob) Did he stab someone?? I don't think anyone specified that, but if he did, then maybe the story would be different, but to me it doesn't change the fact that the people in the crowd were acting like animals.
As well, if that were me and my cell phone was stolen and let's say I was stabbed, I think I would want someone to call an ambulance and try to save my life before they attacked the person in the street. Or maybe even call the police. (Unless the police are known to not be active in these cases)
If it was my mother that was attacked and she broke her hip, I would be very angry, but my first priority would be my mother and her health, not the thief.
Again, I understand what everyone is saying, but while I was watching that video, my hand was over my mouth the whole time and what was going through my mind was why this child was being abused and how a crowd of human beings could become animals.
I'm sorry, but I did not think that was acceptable behaviour and couldn't help but feel sympathy for this kid

You're right. It's ugly.
So is war.
My Dad did the whole 6 years of WW2.
He was not the type of man to want to kill people.
He did it to protect others.
Beating the crap out of a thief in the street is a deterrent.
Putting people into cushy cells with cable TV for a few months is not quite as effective.
I too feel the revulsion of violence, but if someone declares war on you, which he does, when he tries to rob you, then all bets are off.
There are no more rules.
Any force deemed appropriate by the victim and/or his friends, is acceptable.
Don't tell me that I should tolerate someone robbing me by going soft on him.
A criminal makes a conscious decision to be a lazy bastard, unwilling to earn his way through life like all other decent people.
He knows it's risky, and risky it is.
Anyone remember the days of the Duvaliers in Haiti, and the TonTon Macoutes?
Man, you could walk around anywhere in the middle of the night and be safe.
Everybody knew that if they commited a crime, the TonTons would take them away, and they would never be heard from again.
Makes a person think twice, before choosing crime as a career.

 

[jruane44]

They shouldn't have beat the poor bastard so bad. They could have hurt their hands and feet. Maybe they should have just cut off his hands. I believe that would have been a better deterent.

 

[tk toronto]

Beating the crap out of a thief in the street is a deterrent.

Don't tell me that I should tolerate someone robbing me by going soft on him.

Makes a person think twice, before choosing crime as a career.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I get that crime is ugly, but let's not compare WW2 and stealing a cell phone, I think that downplays the victims of that war as well as people like your father who fought in it.
I'm not telling anyone what to tolerate, although I do think that people acting like animals shouldn't be tolerated.
Beating someone is not a deterrant for people, seeing how crime, according to everyone here is still ridiculous. As well, people in the US think that the death penalty is a deterrant, but Texas, who is known for pulling the switch like it's going out of style has not seen a decrease in murder and many studies have been done that show that when criminals choose to do something, beign caught is not what is going through their mind, nor is the death penalty. The beating of that kid does not deter anyone else from stealing, in fact, i bet you (sad as it is) that someone else's cell phone is being stolen as we speak/type.
I'm not saying that this kid should just walk scot free, but please, let's not start spreading mis information as to how this is a deterrant.
This act is just people exacting their anger and revenge, not an act to encourage people to get jobs or an education.
Let's just call it what it is, and that's REVENGE, nothing more.

 

[Rocky]

Beating the crap out of a thief in the street is a deterrent.

Don't tell me that I should tolerate someone robbing me by going soft on him.

Makes a person think twice, before choosing crime as a career.

Yes, I get that crime is ugly, but let's not compare WW2 and stealing a cell phone, I think that downplays the victims of that war as well as people like your father who fought in it.
I'm not telling anyone what to tolerate, although I do think that people acting like animals shouldn't be tolerated.
Beating someone is not a deterrant for people, seeing how crime, according to everyone here is still ridiculous. As well, people in the US think that the death penalty is a deterrant, but Texas, who is known for pulling the switch like it's going out of style has not seen a decrease in murder and many studies have been done that show that when criminals choose to do something, beign caught is not what is going through their mind, nor is the death penalty. The beating of that kid does not deter anyone else from stealing, in fact, i bet you (sad as it is) that someone else's cell phone is being stolen as we speak/type.
I'm not saying that this kid should just walk scot free, but please, let's not start spreading mis information as to how this is a deterrant.
This act is just people exacting their anger and revenge, not an act to encourage people to get jobs or an education.
Let's just call it what it is, and that's REVENGE, nothing more.

I would very much like to convey to you that I understand 100% what you are saying, and furthermore, have the utmost respect for you and your opinions.
When I said, it was ugly, I didn't mean the robbery, I meant the beating.
It is ugly.
Real ugly.
I don't have the perfect solution, but my gut feeling tells me that the kid will think deeply before ever commiting a crime, and if he does commit a crime again, then I would consider him hardcore and incorrigeable, and wouldn't lose a minute's sleep, if someone snuffed him out.
It's not that I have no heart, it's that I feel more for the victim.
Screw the perp.
I live in the DR and am well aware that 911 is not the solution for a criminal trying to rob me in the middle of the night.
I have made my plans, I have set up my "tools".
I have no qualms about blowing someone's head off, who is breaking into my room in the middle of the night.
If luck is on my side, and I catch him totally by surprise, and have the safe option of warning him to stop what he is doing, and he complies, then fine, but I will NOT put myself at risk to do so.
He knows that he's taking a risk of dying, when he breaks into my home, and die, he will, if that's the only option.
It may sound severe, it may even seem disproportionate.
My point of view is that I did not initiate the confrontation, and I have no bad intentions, so when it comes to defending myself, or "my people", there are no rules or guidelines.
It is a declaration of war.
His life, or mine.
I feel justified to protect myself in any form or manner.
If I caught the burglar without doing him any bodily harm, and the cops decided to kick the crap out of him, it would be no sweat off my back.
There are good people and bad people.
If you don't want to get your arse kicked, get a job and don't steal.
It's as simple as that for me.

 

[vince1956]

Here is the link about the girl shot for her phone

OMG!! That video was terrible!!! It's a God damn CELL PHONE!! Are you joking?? I could understand if he was a child molester or something, then maybe, just maybe this kind of savagery would be justified. He's clearly very young. And I would assume the only reason why he wasn't being beaten more was because he wasn't moving, because as soon as he started to move did people again starting beating him. From what I saw, it looked like he was crying, and if I'm not mistaken, he's a teenager.
Served right?? IT'S A CELLPHONE/S!!! I understand people are upset, but are you serious?? This is disgusting!! Would these crazy people have killed him over a CELL PHONE/S??!?
Let's say he was a seasoned thief, do people actually think that all of a sudden he would straighten out and never steal again in his life because they decided to act like a bunch of crazy people?? If people believe that, they're dumb.
I just have to say that I felt sorry for that poor child who clearly did not place anyone's life in danger. It seems that his life was in danger by that crazy mob of people.
I don't understand Spanish, but I have read some of the responses and saw what a few other people said what the crowd was saying.
"Let's just kill him"?!?!?! - again i reiterate, FOR CELLPHONES????
This apparent "street justice" is sick and disgusting. I am not against people being responsible for their actions (such as stealing), but I am against people all of a sudden morphing out of human beings and trying to beat someone to death over a cell phone. On top of that, someone who is clearly terrified and clearly just wanting to get away from these crazy "human beings" and put himself out of harm's way.
Sick.

http://www.dr1.com/forums/living/51170-sad-day-santiago-2.html#post406418

 

[tk toronto]

http://www.dr1.com/forums/living/51170-sad-day-santiago-2.html#post406418

Sorry, that was just a link to another forum. Where is the actual story? I'm actually interested in seeing it.
As well, I'm not saying that this person should not be accountable for killing that poor girl, I was talking about this separate video of a person that I'm sure isn't the face of that kid in the forum photo

 

[tk toronto]

never, mind, i was on the wrong page of the forum. found it

 

[Rocky]

Sorry, that was just a link to another forum. Where is the actual story? I'm actually interested in seeing it.
As well, I'm not saying that this person should not be accountable for killing that poor girl, I was talking about this separate video of a person that I'm sure isn't the face of that kid in the forum photo

They are 2 separate events.
I believe that Vince's point is that it helps to explain the comportment of the crowd in the video clip you saw.
Good people are getting tired of crime, and are starting to fight back.

 

[tk toronto]

They are 2 separate events.
I believe that Vince's point is that it helps to explain the comportment of the crowd in the video clip you saw.
Good people are getting tired of crime, and are starting to fight back.

Oh no, I totally understand your sentiment. And I get wanting to protect your home and I would never say that I would be against that or wrong you for that. It's just I saw the video of that kid crying while people relentlessly (well sort of) beat him. I just don't think that he deserved to die for it, as I'm sure from the time he saw a crowd of people surround him that he was mighty sorry.
As well, I'm not condoning this kid's behaviour, it's just that that video only showed me a terrifed child being beaten to a pulp by a crazy mob and couldn't help but feel sorry for him.
Also, I don't think these mob beatings are great, and my reason is I specifically remember the story of the Canadian man who had the misfortune of getting into the wrong car and being beaten to the point of being hospitalized. All for a misunderstanding and people thinking that they could take the law into their own hands. I'm sure that Canadian man was not cool with being almost beaten to death, good intentions by this crowd or not. That Canadian man is just one example of how those things could go very wrong.

 

[Rocky]

Oh no, I totally understand your sentiment. And I get wanting to protect your home and I would never say that I would be against that or wrong you for that. It's just I saw the video of that kid crying while people relentlessly (well sort of) beat him. I just don't think that he deserved to die for it, as I'm sure from the time he saw a crowd of people surround him that he was mighty sorry.
As well, I'm not condoning this kid's behaviour, it's just that that video only showed me a terrifed child being beaten to a pulp by a crazy mob and couldn't help but feel sorry for him.
Also, I don't think these mob beatings are great, and my reason is I specifically remember the story of the Canadian man who had the misfortune of getting into the wrong car and being beaten to the point of being hospitalized. All for a misunderstanding and people thinking that they could take the law into their own hands. I'm sure that Canadian man was not cool with being almost beaten to death, good intentions by this crowd or not. That Canadian man is just one example of how those things could go very wrong.

You got that right.
The whole situation sux.
In a eutopian society, none of this would be happening.
In the real DR world. we are faced with less than adequate policing and some ugly violent crimes.
In light of the existing status quo, beating the pulp out of thieves when catching them, disturbing as it is, is probably the best deterrent.
It ain't perfect, I know, but what are the options?
Leaving them to the Dominican justice system is a joke.

 

[tk toronto]

I know this is somewhat off topic, so what is the justice system like in the DR? Arrests, sentences, police response etc.

 

[Rocky]

I know this is somewhat off topic, so what is the justice system like in the DR? Arrests, sentences, police response etc.

It's not off topic at all.
It will serve to explain a lot about why that street beating happened, and why people feel the way they do about it.
Basically, a thief caught stealing a cellphone, would spend a night or two in jail, then get bailed out, at a total cost of approx $100 US or less.
If the victims do not hire a lawyer to further prosecute him, that would be the end of the story.
Unlike North America, where a DA or a Crown Prosecutor would represent the victim or complainant, here, the victim has to hire and pay a lawyer to prosecute the offender.
I would venture to guess that 95% of the criminals caught, go no further than the bail stage.
It's not much of a deterrent, as you can well imagine.

 

[tk toronto]

It's not off topic at all.
It will serve to explain a lot about why that street beating happened, and why people feel the way they do about it.
Basically, a thief caught stealing a cellphone, would spend a night or two in jail, then get bailed out, at a total cost of approx $100 US or less.
If the victims do not hire a lawyer to further prosecute him, that would be the end of the story.
Unlike North America, where a DA or a Crown Prosecutor would represent the victim or complainant, here, the victim has to hire and pay a lawyer to prosecute the offender.
I would venture to guess that 95% of the criminals caught, go no further than the bail stage.
It's not much of a deterrent, as you can well imagine.

That is terrible!! There is no DA/Crown for the people of the DR?!?! So, for example, the girl that was killed for her cell phone, her family would have to hire a prosecutor to prosecute the criminal or else he would go free? Or is that only for crimes such as theft??

 

[Rocky]

That is terrible!! There is no DA/Crown for the people of the DR?!?! So, for example, the girl that was killed for her cell phone, her family would have to hire a prosecutor to prosecute the criminal or else he would go free? Or is that only for crimes such as theft??

As best as I know, that is correct.
Of course, I am not a legal expert and have little experience in murder cases in the DR, so someone else might chirp in here with some more elaborate info.
There has to be a bit more to it than what I have mentioned.
For instance, in drug cases, there might not be a complainant, so someone is taking it upon themselves to prosecute.
The question could be posed in the legal forum, where there is a resident lawyer who could clear up all the details.
But, coming back to the cellphone thief, that's how it works.
I was astonished myself, the first time I found out.
Seems completely ridiculous, doesn't it?

 

[tk toronto]

Very ridiculous. I'll wait until tomorrow to post in the legal forum, unless I see someone pitch in with more info. Thanks, Rocky, I didn't know all that. It's crazy!

 

[Rocky]

Very ridiculous. I'll wait until tomorrow to post in the legal forum, unless I see someone pitch in with more info. Thanks, Rocky, I didn't know all that. It's crazy!

Don't expect any lighting fast responses.
Tomorrow's Saturday, and I doubt that the lawyers are looking in on the weekends.

 

[macocael]

tk, you have to take something else into consideration here, and not just here but many other countries where such customs rule (India for example, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and many Latin American countries), usually in developing nations that are still primarily agrarian in their origins: policing is usually a matter of community involvement. That is, a community learns of a problem, they take care of it themselves -- all problems, not just, say, a thief, but also a starving neighbor down on his luck. The community will feed that person -- or punish a thief. The idea of remanding the problem to an impartial and abstract justice system doesnt really enter the picture. Also, here we have the remnants of what anthropologists used to call a Shame culture (rather than Guilt culture). I wouldnt want to take the distinction too far, but it is very true that here in most towns what counts is what people think of you, so a thief does his best to remain undiscovered in his activity, because the act itself is less important than the consequences. Most of these thieves in my experience have little remorse or pangs of conscience. Finally, as in the Trujillo years, force is considered the only remedy. that is wrong of course, but we dont have "rehabilitation" programs here or the means to sustain them.

On a comical note, I spent a morning recently in the hooskow of San Carlos the other day, bailing out a Haitian friend, and the experience was very instructive. All the "tigueres" who had gotten into trouble the night before were there, and a sorrier bunch of losers would be hard to find in one place; and they were not exactly "malandros" but basically just feckless youths. And the funny thing was that the police were fairly lax and at any moment in the confusion of the waiting room that all the pickpockets and crooks had been hustled into, any one of them could have escaped; but instead, they all behaved like sheep, excessively polite and submissive. It was as if they were prodigal sons come home to the father that they had missed for so long.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Your very first post in this thread made it very apparent to the rest of us, or at least me, that you were and are not aware of the way things are here in the DR. As you were upset with what you saw on that video I was upset at what I read in your post but I held my tongue till this post. You remember me don?t you? Debates forum back in Sept.

If you had any worthwhile experience with this country you would know that the mass introduction of cell phones is relatively new to this island. Due to the monopolistic hold that the phone business here was the average Dominican couldn?t afford to own a phone. Now with the large amount of cell phones available and a few carriers it is now normal for a lot of Dominicans to have a cell phone. The problem with that is that the phone costs the average person almost a month?s wages to purchase one. Couple that with the impecunious state of the people here and it becomes very apparent as to why people don?t like to have their cell phones stolen.

You as a Canadian are in an entirely different world then that lived by the Dominicans and regardless as to how much you may wish to claim that you understand I will say that you never will understand. It is because of that impecunious state that they live in lies the reason you can?t understand. It is also because of that impecunious state that changes all the rules as you know them.

Other things that you may not be aware of. The Dominicans have no ambulance service so if you should get stabbed you will have to depend on those that are close by to get you to the hospital. Whoever takes you there will usually want to be paid for rendering the transportation service. Once at the hospital they, the hospital, might or might not have the necessary bandages and such to attend to your wounds. If not you will have to pay for someone to go to the pharmacy to purchase what is needed. If there is medication that must be taken then it will be up to you to purchase that.

Due to there being no 911 phone ability you will need to call the police directly. The possibility of getting a policeman to come to the scene of the crime is a hit or miss adventure and getting them there in any kind of a hurry just broadens that hit or miss crapshoot. If you are laying there bleeding from your stab wound which you acquired when your cell phone was stolen from you then you need to begin praying that someone else close by happens to have a cell phone to call the police and you must hope that someone knows the phone number.

These are just some of the problems faced by Dominicans day in and day out and they are all familiar with that which confronts them. Dominicans are as a rule amenable people but they are beginning to get disgusted with the increase of those that wish to make their indigence worse then it already is and the failure of the police to do that which they were hired to do. This is something you can not understand unless you live it or at least watch it every day.

Looking at your posting history, it interested me due to 86 posts in two months, I noticed that after your five week volunteer work/vacation here that you made a few posts about employment, a couple in other threads, 9 in this thread and 45 posts in the sankie bin.

If all you want to do is ramble on then I suggest that you stay in the sankie bin. If it is your intension to come to our little island to mingle with the people and or work then I suggest that you study up on life as it really is here and not with the misconceptions that you are carrying now. You can accomplish this by reading that which has been posted by those that have or do live here and contribute to this board.

Looking at that which you have previously posted to this board in all your prior posts I would suggest that you stay in the sankie bin. By your prior posts it is because of your failure to follow the established rules of this board and to get nasty to other members that I foresee your getting belligerent in a response to me. Because of that I will forewarn you not to waste your time.

Rick

 

[Lambada]

Fascinating how we all see things differently. I thought tk toronto was doing quite a good job of learning from Rocky and giving evidence of a willingness to learn. I didn't see any evidence of belligerence at all. I also thought Rocky's info was geared well to a person of tk's level of knowledge. Learn from macoceal as well, tk, his stuff is spot on. It's quite a shock to the system when you first discover how basic many peoples lives are here and also how cheap life can be (& I don't mean cost of living).