A thief bites the dust. street justice.

[Rocky]

I hope this doesn't turn into a personal battle with anyone.
I think this thread is really important, specially to those of us who live here, and see that Dominicans have gone from quietly tolerating crime, out of fear or complacency, to now actively doing something about it.
Right or wrong, in their MO, it's a move in the right direction.
There are many aspects about vigilante justice that are problematic, on the other hand, it can be spot on.
I believe it to be an important matter that needs to be addressed and understood, and it would be a shame if it all goes by the wayside.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Trust me I have no desire to start a fight with anyone as long as it is DR related and deals with that which we deal with daily.

As this thread is the Living forum and the main board says, ?Hundreds who live in the DR contribute their insight. Questions welcomed from those who have been here for years and from newcomers.? As such I use this forum a lot and have learned a lot from people such as Rocky, Lambada, Macocael and a host of other helpful members. When in such a thread I ask those questions that need asking and wait for the responses. If by some chance the response should contain words such as, ?God damn!?, ?crazy people?, ?act like a bunch of crazy people?, ?If people believe that, they're dumb?, ?crazy "human beings" ?, ?animals? then I have a tendency to get upset. There are a number of reason that this upsets me such as using the Lords name in vain, calling those Dominicans that are at the brink of not taking it anymore ?dumb?, ?crazy? and ?animals? when I am familiar with what they must endure and how things are here and therefore understand why they do what they do. This is not to say that it is correct or that I condone it but I understand why.

This runs in parallel with the difference in customs from one country to the next. Just because Dominicans don?t practice a specific custom that I was taught doesn?t mean that I?m going to sit back and rant, rave and call names because they don?t do it like me. It might upset me a bit but I will be quick to ask them why they do it that way before deciding to foolishly condemn them.

Now if the poster wishes to continue to post with those that wish to teach her I have no qualms with that but I do have qualms with that which I mentioned above. I came out with my prior post only because she has broken the rules before and has gotten belligerent with me before when I addressed her on those rules. Now she has broken them again and under normal circumstances I would maybe have said nothing but the straw that broke the camels back was the use of the Lords name in vain. One of the subjects that we don?t talk about and that is a segment pertaining to that subject.

Is it possible you do-gooders can understand why I posted? Other then any negative output directed toward her did I tell any lies as to how it is here?

Rick

 

[Chris]

OK, two sides of the coin here. A poster considers the video horrible (which it really is you know), but those who live in the DR consider it justice.

Both views are valid. The one view perhaps is steeped in 1st world comforts being always available, and the other view is certainly a DR view where the pursuit of life, liberty and justice is not guaranteed. :laugh: If one wants crime to end in your own neighborhood, you better catch the criminals and beat the holy hell out of them, Wild West Style.

It is a good thing the local people are taking action to safeguard themselves and their posessions. Like Rocky says, it seems as if the apathy is shifting. It is a bad thing that they have no other options than to meet violence with violence.

 

[Rocky]

OK, two sides of the coin here. A poster considers the video horrible (which it really is you know), but those who live in the DR consider it justice.

Both views are valid. The one view perhaps is steeped in 1st world comforts being always available, and the other view is certainly a DR view where the pursuit of life, liberty and justice is not guaranteed. :laugh: If one wants crime to end in your own neighborhood, you better catch the criminals and beat the holy hell out of them, Wild West Style.

It is a good thing the local people are taking action to safeguard themselves and their posessions. Like Rocky says, it seems as if the apathy is shifting. It is a bad thing that they have no other options than to meet violence with violence.

Amazing how you manage to say in a few paragraphs, that which takes me 5 pages.
That's it in a nutshell.
To any and all who happen to be reading and/or participating in this thread, I believe this subject to be much more important that it appears.
It may have started out with a "Hey, look what I found on the net", but it touches on some aspects of life in the DR, which are primordial to the betterment of crime control.
The varying opinions posted all have their validity, and I, for one, appreciate the input.
I plan on living here 'till I leave this planet, so crime, crime prevention, etc, are important topics for me.
My statement about hoping it didn't get personal was not directed at any one person, but rather expressing a wish, that we not get sidetracked from the main topic, with any personal feelings.
Although I abhor violence, my gut feeling tells me that what happened in the street is a good thing.
If I had a giant screen to hang out in the street to show any and all, I would.

 

[Lambada]

Viewing that video again, was the guy standing with his foot on the robber a police officer? Sure he had a gun, but that doesn't mean anything........... My experience is that mostly when Dominicans are delivering 'justice' in this fashion the police back off and leave them to it. Occasionally there are reports of them 'rescuing' the person being attacked.

My only concern with street justice meted out in this fashion, is what happens when the police decide to confront the 'mob'. Then the situation escalates and innocent people get killed including onlookers and I don't think you'll ever eliminate the Dominican propensity for onlooking when things like this happen.

It'll be interesting, too, to see what happens to the staunch pro law and order candidates in the next Presidential election, people like Candelier, for example. Is it time for a more dictator-like Government in order to come down hard on the drug trade which is at the root of so many of the thefts? Could street justice, as per the video, serve to bring home the message that the authorities need to take more action to reduce the crime level? And might we all be in for a more uncomfortable time if they did?

I would agree that it is an important topic and not just in the here and now but also with regard to future ramifications.

 

[tk toronto]

Wow. Well, first off I think that my post regarding people as "animals" or "crazy" was referring to people in general, not Dominicans. I do not think I recall saying the Dominican people are crazy. If I saw the same situation in Toronto, I would use the same words to describe people. I do not appreciate bieng made out to be some kind of racist. If anyone else felt offended by opinion, then I am sorry, but I am not sorry for feeling sorry for that child, nor am I sorry for having an opinion differing from other people about what was on that video.
Yes, I think from the posts after between me and Rocky, I have learned something, and Rocky taught me something in a professional manner with tact.
And thanks for letting me know about the 911 situation and checking up on my other posts, but next time I am going to be blasted, I hope someone has the professional courtesy to do so in a personal message.

 

[tk toronto]

And a thanks to Rocky, Lambada, Macocael for letting me know some new things. I appreciate it fully.

 

[Lambada]

A bit more info. This article appeared in Clave Digital - it discusses some of the causes of crime and suggests possible solutions in the short, medium and long term. Interestingly it suggests the 'crisis management team' approach made up of a multi-disciplinary team of citizenry led by someone without political or military connections so as not to be 'contaminated'.
La seguridad ciudadana en crisis

For non-Spanish readers use a translation device like AltaVista Babelfish. It won't be perfect but should get over the general gist.

 

[something_of_the_night]

Now I don't feel so bad being one of the few uneducated members of DR1, since the so-called learned folks here appear to be a bunch of trigger-happy, eye-for-an-eye, fans of violence. And I bet the majority even preach religion and proclaim to be god-fearing.

It's a good thing some of us have no god.

 

[something_of_the_night]

If by some chance the response should contain words such as, ?God damn!?, ?crazy people?, ?act like a bunch of crazy people?, ?If people believe that, they're dumb?, ?crazy "human beings" ?, ?animals? then I have a tendency to get upset. There are a number of reason that this upsets me such as using the Lords name in vain, I would maybe have said nothing but the straw that broke the camels back was the use of the Lords name in vain. One of the subjects that we don?t talk about and that is a segment pertaining to that subject.

Rick

You HAVE to be kidding, I hope. And maybe, if you are bringing your faith into this, you should not be a moderator. It's bad enough that you filter any anti-American rant out of DR1, but to bring your religion--and your faith in a book--as a moderating tool, is an insult in itself to the rest of us non-believers.

The video shows a bunch of savages beating up another man, and the learned folks of DR1 applaud it. SICK.

 

[gary short]

GEEzuz H Christ......what you said something of the night.... finally some sanity

 

[miguel]

Que abusadores, hijos de su padres!.

Sickening. Plain and simple.

We have a moron whom, to prove he is powerful, set on fire, NOT ONE, but a few homes.

I guess he taught the thief a lesson. But what about the others, the ones not involved in said crime, the ones whose houses he burnt?.

Then we have a whole bunch of primitives beating the hell out of a person because of a stupid cell phone.

Who needs the juridical system when they have the "savages system"?.

Whether the system works or not, the police should be the ones handling that person. Yes, I know that MOST Dominicans LOVEEE the "primitive system" but it doesn't make it right.

If the thief were an expat, I can already hear SOME DR1 member's chants:

"Those primitives axxholes", "can you believe what those mo'fo's did to that man because of a cell phone?", "they committed a bigger crime, they should be put in jail", "yeah, those Dominicans are beasts", "for the love of God, it's only a cell phone", "why didn't whose savages call the police?", "they could had killed him, and for what, for a cell phone".......

Yeah, yeah, what if he stole it from my daughter or family member, I still say call the cops and let them handle his axx.

I am NOT excusing the fact that he did something wrong. He did and he should be pay for it legally. Not by a whole bunch of privitive savages!.

Btw, God didn't believe in "an eye for an eye"!!!!!!!!!!. So whomever thinks that this is called-for, better think twice about your beliefs.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Sad to say it but street justice degrades us as human beings. Its one thing to hold someone till the proper authority come, but to have the situation degenerate to the point that the mob wants to get their kicks in is simply sicko!!!!! Somehow the worst instincs of people come to the surface in this so called "street justice". Disgusting!!!!!!!

 

[Lambada]

Yeah, yeah, what if he stole it from my daughter or family member, I still say call the cops and let them handle his axx.

I am NOT excusing the fact that he did something wrong. He did and he should be pay for it legally.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that in theory Miguel, but in practice maybe the Dominican victims of crime here are getting tired of non-response by police or at minimum very slow response, or failures in the justice system to obtain............justice?

And in answer to the comment about trigger happy fans of violence - I don't think you have a host of DR1 expat residents ready to dish out this type of justice themselves. I hope not; that would be extremely unwise and would probably rebound. I think what you have is people saying they understand why such 'mob' responses occur.

 

[NALs]

Just a general question....

what would have happened to the thief if the police was the one "dealing" with him?

One thing that is not clear from the video is whether or not the police were called, perhaps they were and the guys simply took their anger on the thief while the police arrived or perhaps they did not call the police. Tough to tell.

However, let's assume the police was called and let's assume the guys who were obviously upset would had done nothing, what do you think would had happened to the thief?

Personally, I think he would had walked free, like most criminals are doing in the DR by either paying the police to let them go or (the most common reason) judges coming to the conclusion that there is a lack of evidence, thus the criminal walks free back into society... until the next crime victim and again, they fail to show evidence and the cycle continues. That's my opinion, not trying to justify the mob attack on the thief.

However, whether it was right or wrong for the mob attack, one thing I am certain and that is that that occurence was probably one of the best things that could have happened to that kid. His experience there probably will make him think twice before trying to take the easy road of stealing what took others plenty of work hours, energy, sacrifice, and determination to get.

Sometimes, temporary crises or defeats are opportunities in disguise. That was probably the beginning of his second chance in living a law abidding life, at least in not being a thief. Then again, maybe the kid learns nothing from that experience and he might move up the criminal latter to be come perhaps just another petty theif or something worst, such as a murderer, rapist, drug lord, who knows....

BTW, I agree with Miguel on his point about the reaction of the expats. While I don't believe all expats would react in such manner, there certainly are quite a bunch who would.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that in theory Miguel, but in practice maybe the Dominican victims of crime here are getting tired of non-response by police or at minimum very slow response, or failures in the justice system to obtain............justice?

And in answer to the comment about trigger happy fans of violence - I don't think you have a host of DR1 expat residents ready to dish out this type of justice themselves. I hope not; that would be extremely unwise and would probably rebound. I think what you have is people saying they understand why such 'mob' responses occur.

Regarding your last sentence on the quote, and in all fairness to what other posters have said, 'mob' responses have little to do with people feeling tired of a non-responsive justice system.

Of course, there are those who do join the 'mob' out of anger towards the lack of ability from the authorities (at least the perception seems to point in that way) and some also join the 'mob' because they were the victims of such crime either from that particular criminal or another criminal whom they feel is still lurking in the area where they live/work.

However, most members of any 'mob' don't join the mob for any of those reasons. MOST join the mob because such groups allows them to diffuse their responsibility to others. In fact, personal responsibility is almost non-existent in a mob situation. People join the mob and they beat whomever they were beating and they feel free to do so basically because they feel they can do such thing and get away with it.

On that level, I agree more with Miguel and with Something of the Night (minus his rant on religion). Most of the people on that mob or any mob are not there in an attempt to create "justice", but rather simply because they know they have a chance a beating someone and not bearing the responsibilities that usually follows such actions if they were to commit such by themselves.

This is not just a Dominican 'problem', but rather part of human nature. Ever wonder why riots occur? For the same practical reasons, some people are angry at a particular situation but most are simply there because they believe they won't get caught doing something that is normally socially unacceptable.

Despite all of that, I still think such experience that kid went through will do him more good in the long run, that is unless he is a diehard person. Then, he might see himself in the slammer someday, which is probably much worst than anything he experienced during the 'mob' attack.

Just an opinion.:ermm:

-NALs

 

[Rocky]

This very well may be the most controversial topic I have ever seen on DR1, and there is no absolute right or wrong.
The long and short of it for me, is that I am glad to see that Dominicans are moving away from their previous apathetic non participation against crime, to wanting to do something about it.
Clearly, seeing a kid get the crap out of him is revolting.
Clearly, many of us think it's the best thing that could happen to him.
There's a dirty job to be done out there, and in the absence of real police, some other alternatives have to be considered.
It's easy, after the fact, away from the emotion of the moment, with no relations to the victims, to only see the violence aspect.
It is also clear that those of us who have lived here in the DR for a long time, have very different viewpoints, to those who simply come here on vacation.
Real life can be tough and cruel.
I prefer to see the video clip in question, over seeing one of a group of thugs, kicking the shyte out of an innocent victim.
I've had friends be attacked, chopped up with "machetes", robbed at gun point, murdered, and more, and have lost my sympathy for the perps.
The cellphone theft in question was a crime of violence.
We are not talking about someone sneakily slipping into your house and grabbing a cellphone, this kid obviously made a grab in the streets, using force.
If a criminal chooses to use force in a violent crime, there should be no pity for him, when he gets his just desserts.
The judicial system is too soft on these perps, and now people are doing something about it.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Simple question to the expats. Would any of you join in a free for all street justice on some criminal if you had the chance??

Honest answers only.

 

[Rocky]

Simple question to the expats. Would any of you join in a free for all street justice on some criminal if you had the chance??

Honest answers only.

Who could answer that question honestly?
How can you know for sure what you might do in a moment of passion?
Obviously, the majority of DR1ers don't have mob type mentality, and don't enjoy seeing violence.
Our instincts would have us trying to stop the mob.
There must be a purpose to your question, as you already know the answer.

 

[macocael]

"he decidido el fin de todo ser"

Btw, God didn't believe in "an eye for an eye"!!!!!!!!!!. So whomever thinks that this is called-for, better think twice about your beliefs.

Actually, Miguel that is not quite the case, as a thorough reading of Genesis will amply demonstrate. Anyway, you cannot generalize about "God" in the bible, because just as there are many different strands and books in the bible, so too there are in fact many different versions of God. The god that st Paul gives us, the loving father etc, is only one version, and a much later one. Prior to that interpretation, the bible gives us a much harsher god, and not just the Pentateuch (Five Books of Moses) but also the prophets -- Read Isaiah and you will instantly see what I mean. Plenty of vengeance and eye for an eye going on everywhere. God's chosen people are often exhorted to kill and are rewarded for doing so.

The development of the idea of forebearance and love -- or what is called the Golden Rule (ethic of reciprocity), has a long history and makes its first appearance in Leviticus: "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:18

But it is not an exclusive command, nor is it observed much until Christ comes along and really gives it emphasis.

The code of Hamurabi, which is the first written code of law -- literally "written in stone" and intended as a code that would supercede even royal mandate -- predated the Ten Commandments by 500 years (around 1727BC), and it was the code that prevailed for centuries. It makes liberal use of the death penalty for all sorts of infractions, but it was a civilized code because it sought to protect the poor and powerless from the unchecked abuses of the rich and powerful. The very idea that it codified Law as an unassailable institution was a major step forward for civilization. The Mosaic tradition stems directly from it.

To give you an idea, however, of the complexity of the moral thinking in the bible, let us just review one example: The ten commandments state, thou shalt not kill. But God also pronounces, "he who might kill Cain, shall be punished sevenfold."

Best to leave God out of these matters and stick with Hamurabi's basic intention: strengthen the institution of the law so that it may protect the weak.