Al Sharpton alive and kicking at the US Embassy!

[AZB]

Here is my take on the issue:
Generally if the person is decently dressed and is accompanied by other presentable people, they will not have any trouble getting into any respectable establishment, regardless of their skin color. The owners of the establishment want to maintian their image in the social circle. Generally with the gringos (white or black) is that they are baldly dressed (messed up hair, cheap clothing, tatooes etc), the african american men usually have ear rings and gangster atire. But both the blacks and white gringos have one thing in common, they are almost always in a company of the cheap barrio slut. I won't be surprised if the embassy staff was declined entrance because his girlfriend didn't fit into the crowd. These embassy staff are not your regular beverly hill crowd. They can get down and dirty just like any other visiting gringo or expat.
AZB

 

[ElNegrote]

Here is my take on the issue:
Generally if the person is decently dressed and is accompanied by other presentable people, they will not have any trouble getting into any respectable establishment, regardless of their skin color. The owners of the establishment want to maintian their image in the social circle. Generally with the gringos (white or black) is that they are baldly dressed (messed up hair, cheap clothing, tatooes etc), the african american men usually have ear rings and gangster atire. But both the blacks and white gringos have one thing in common, they are almost always in a company of the cheap barrio slut. I won't be surprised if the embassy staff was declined entrance because his girlfriend didn't fit into the crowd. These embassy staff are not your regular beverly hill crowd. They can get down and dirty just like any other visiting gringo or expat.
AZB

Given the long history of racist discrimination in the Dominican Republic, which includes such horrific highlights such as the mass slaughter of Haitians and dark-skinned Dominicans by Trujillo, the overt anti-black discourse propagated by Balaguer, and the propaganda used against Pe?a G?mez, which helped to elect Leonel the first time, is anyone surprised that some people still discriminate against dark-skinned Dominicans and blacks from other countries?

Wasn't it not until very recently that brown and very dark-skinned Dominican women were able to win the Miss DR contests? This is not to say that such discrimination occurs at the level and in the same ways as it once did (the Dominican Republic is one of the few Latin American countries other than Venezuela that has elected someone who obviously has African ancestry), but at the same, no one should be surprised, and attempts to justify it through appeals to improper clothing or slander against poor and working-class Dominican women ("barrio slut") is disgusting.

Believe me, in some of the high end shopping centers in Santo Domingo, some of the Dominican workers act as if they do not want brown or dark-brown Dominicans, let alone blacks from other countries, coming in, though they jump once you pull a few dollars out.

 

[Hipocrito Mejia]

This is nothing new at Loft or Praia. There have been other well publicized incidents of racial discrimination at both places. In one particular instance, a well known darker skin Dominican female was denied admission while in the company of a group of friends, who were all allowed in. Acording to published reports at the time, all were dressed in a similar manner, but the darker skin female was told at the door that she was not allowed inside due to her skin color.

 

[Sholly24]

An American citizen didn't break the law? Plus it was outside of the embassy.
In this case, who cares what the US law is, it doesn't apply, so why mention it.

I don't think that it is necessary for an american to break the law or for the incident to happen in the american embassy before the embassy should take a strong stand against what is inappropriate. Prejudice of any kind (racial,religious,sexual etc) is something that is generally condemned all over the world so I think the action of the embassy is appropriate. The mention of the US law is only made as an informational purpose to explain why the action was taken. The embassy is more obligated to defend american laws. We do not have to defend domincan laws (other than to respect it). Dominicans should defend their own laws.

All this press release does is insight more bad feeling towards the USA here in the DR. Despite the fact that "Lisa Kubiske" apparently tried to resolve the problem a few years ago. They still should have sat down with the owner of Loft and had a little chat with him over a beer. They should have been a little more "Dominican" about the situation.

Stroking the ego of an ignorant person or suffering a fool gladly will only lead to him doing worse. This may be the 'dominican' way to chat over beer but I would not support anyone bringing themselves so low in this kind of situation. This is not an attempt to avoid world war 3. A club has the right to refuse entry to anybody for whatever reason (whether it be right or wrong) and it is not compulsory that the embassy staff have to go there. They can go to other clubs or simply stay at home.

In all fairness to the DR, I am finding it difficult to believe the story and I suspect that race was not an issue but since it is in black and white on an official government website, it most likely is true. It is also interesting that the dominicans on this board have been rather quiet on the issue. I suspect that if it was wrong, they would have made their feeling known

If I were in charge at the embassy, All I would do is to get the name of the club owner and put it in the computer system and then wait......patiently. Maybe one day soon, he will come and apply for a visa to the US and then when his name comes up.......well guess what?. He will be denied a visa. It is as simple as that. He has a right to refuse entry to anyone in his club and the embassy also has a right to refuse him a visa.

It is very easy to deal with ignorant people. You don't need to have a chat with them and stroke their ego over a bottle of beer.

Sholly

 

[Chip]

Ditto on what Sholly, Alyonka and Janin have said. I wouldn't doubt if there was a true case of racism or some type of misunderstanding - it could all be plausible.

I do know that it is normal and expected for Americans abroad to follow guidelines or rules as set forth. This was common when I was in the Army in Germany. If the employees don't like it they can always get another job somewhere else.

 

[Chris]

Bullen says that it is rare for an embassy to make a decision of this type, but added that the clubs are violating both Dominican and US laws.

I'm now just wondering what Dominican Law would be violated here?

 

[SKY]

Maybe if you are an American citizen living in the DR you should not carry a beer in the street, as it is against US law in most cities to do so.

 

[Lambada]

"...There are larger human rights at stake I would have thought."


Think again . In NYS a Corrections officer(prison Guard) was found to have ties to the KKK.Fired . In the US army persons found to have conections with street gangs or hate groups are routinely separated "for the good of the service" Employers are now able to fire smokers who smoke at home if they test positive for nicotine 3 times after being told to quit.A police officer(NYPD yet) poised nude for play girl . fired . The Bill Of Rights garantees "..Life,Liberty , and the Pursuit of Happiness..." not employment to the detrement of your employer. Those who seek more are free to join some of the greates US Citizens the self-employed . or the un-employed your freedom of choice.

I DO think........that's the problem. It's people who don't and who unquestioningly accept 'rules' as if the great anonymous 'they' had the right to impose them, who worry me................. I don't doubt the instances you have quoted above but how every single one of those can be construed as 'to the detriment of the employer' I find a little difficult to fathom.

However getting back to Mr. Bullen I see that the notice on the US website directs 'all resident official U.S. Embassy employees to refrain from patronizing the Loft' (which leaves aside the question of any non-resident visiting officials, I suppose) but it goes a little further. It says 'Charg? Bullen also placed notice of this action on the Embassy?s website to advise U.S. citizens visiting the Santo Domingo of the Loft?s discriminatory actions'. It doesn't 'direct them to refrain from visiting' because I guess even the US Embassy realises they can't control tourists actions so maybe this is the closest they could get?

 

[ElNegrote]

I'm now just wondering what Dominican Law would be violated here?

The Dominican law (or laws) that expressly forbids discrimination based on skin color or racial background.

As this Listin Diario article by Ram?n P?rez Reyes makes clear, this was not the first instance of this sort of discrimination. The article also notes that the club was involved in a prior controversy involving the deaths of several young Dominican men.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

The question I have is, would any of us feel comfortable in patronizing a business that we knew discriminated because of someone's skin color. If this is true of the Loft, is the party more important than doing the right thing.

 

[jrf]

(wow - lots of newcomers to this thread - wonder where from? the embassy?)

I am amazed that the U.S. would even go so far as to take the time to post/warm citizens about one nightclub.

Surely someones ego was hurt and this goes to show what the U.S. is really like.
Selfish, childish, hypocritical.

Amazing what can become so popular as to say that they are breaking U.S. laws as well - wow - even in the small island of the DR the far reaching arm of the law has it's effect.

Considering the now 'friends' of the U.S and the upcoming arms sale to a former enemy group/nation- and in MHO a bit more important but I am sure that they Americans will find a way to make it look like they are going "God's work" for us all.

Just another example of the big bully in the playground.

 

[Chris]

The Dominican law (or laws) that expressly forbids discrimination based on skin color or racial background.

Do you have the number of the Ley in your head perhaps? Does anyone?

 

[Chris]

Well, the boss started this, so he should look after it, but let's keep the US bashing down a little please. It serves no-one and is not productive. Keep it to what is happening in the DR -- remember -- Mr. Bullen and the embassy and the ban on visiting the club; that is what we're talking about ..

 

[Chirimoya]

The question I have is, would any of us feel comfortable in patronizing a business that we knew discriminated because of someone's skin color. If this is true of the Loft, is the party more important than doing the right thing.

I agree, and IMO the US embassy has gone a little too far in 'instructing' its employees not to patronise LOFT - but I don't see why they shouldn't inform them of the situation and leave it up to them to decide.

Also, singling out one nightclub when it is a common occurrence at a number of joints smacks of a personal vendetta - maybe the Charge d'Affaires himself was denied entry and wrote the press release before he had a chance to calm down?:cheeky:

BTW, anyone who denies that this practice takes place is either not black, or has never tried to get into one of these establishments with a person deemed 'too black' by the door staff.

 

[2dlight]

There is not much information on their website, but for whatever its worth, here it is:

Loft Lounge and Dance Club

-NALs

Someone should have proofread the print before going public: wednsday and sunday's(plural).
Why would anyone want to go and spend money in a place where they're not welcome?

 

[SKY]

In today's Miami Herald:

U.S. puts Dominican club off limits, alleges race bias - 08/01/2007 - MiamiHerald.com

 

[DAKRA]

This is not taken lightly by the U.S.

Just to make the board aware, I happen to know a bit about Equal Opportunity and the US Laws prohibiting discrimination. :chinese:

For the US Embassy to take this action some serious type of event had to take place that raises to the level of concern. What I mean is that the Embassy had to get a "Written Oppinion" from the Equal Opportunity Commision (back in the states) on how best to deal with the situation. - Believe me when I tell you that whatever action(s) or incident(s) that occured to cause concern by this nightclub had to be fully investigated and property vetted by US Officials to make the determination that a bulletin be issued warning Americans.

Now, many of you may say that I sound like a "Typical" American who is trying to defend the position of the government (Embassy) - I tell you that is not true. - - I have no knowledge about this club, or it's action. I just happend to know a bit about the Equal Opportunity.


So, with this in mind, What discriminatory pratices are going on at the Loft? -What really happened there on July 22nd?

:ermm:

 

[SKY]

Maybe the American ordered a Miller LIte?

 

[Sholly24]

I am amazed that the U.S. would even go so far as to take the time to post/warm citizens about one nightclub.

Yes, it is perfectly in order. An action has been taken against an american that is inappropriate. It is inappropriate not only based on american standard but based on acceptable world standard on prejudice so the call is perfectly in order. How would dominicans/the dominican embassy in america feel if one of their citizen went to a club in the US and the club said ' oh sorry you are a black dominican, we do not allow your sort here' or if the embassy decided that black dominicans will not be given a visa. You have to understand that if we go by the concept of 'black' in america, some of those domincans that consider themselves as white would not pass the color test in america. At best they will be classified as hispanic.

It is easy for me to say I am white and it does not affect me but one day someone is going to tell me ' oh sorry, you are white and we do not allow your sort here'

Surely someones ego was hurt and this goes to show what the U.S. is really like.
Selfish, childish, hypocritical.

There are times when america in my opinion behaves 'selfish,childish and hypocritical' but this is not one of those instances. The fact of life is that absolute/near absolute power corrupts and america is not an exception. It is not any different from the way some (actually many) men treat their wives/girlfriends like as if she were a rag who has not rights other than to obey instructions and do whatever she is told to do. Most men do not see anything wrong with it because they have the power and it favors them but ask most women and they will tell you what they feel. Every human being looks at a situation from a view of what favors them. Why do some of these rich dominicans behave like as if they own the world and can do whatever they like?. The concept of power is not any different with america. Obviously if you can tolerate it in the DR then maybe you can tolerate america. Better yet you can have a chat with us over a beer and stroke our ego (in the dominican way) and just maybe.........we may just let you have your way.

The good thing about our society is that unlike those rich dominicans who all they want to do is to take, we want to take but we give a lot back also. Our arrogance is far more balanced that theirs.

Amazing what can become so popular as to say that they are breaking U.S. laws as well - wow - even in the small island of the DR the far reaching arm of the law has it's effect.

The word ' breaking US law' might sound a bit off but I think we need to see beyond that sentence and think about what happened. Prejudice is not supported by US law nor by international law. Where US law is in accordance with international law, I do not think that it is important to mention international law since it is obvious. Drinking while driving/not exposing beer in public/prostitution etc are against US laws but not against international law so it is understandable that our embassies do not meddle in these affairs in other countries but at the same time it will not be supported as far as the american governmment/american government resources are concerned.

The decision only relates to embassy workers as a result of an action that was taken against one of it's members. Other american citizens are free to go there so the call is perfectly in order.

The problem with the DR is that they do not really know how to make a bold statement and put pressure in order to effect change so things will continue to be the way they are over there.

Sholly

 

[SKY]

If the US cares so much about it's citizens abroad, how come they treat all Americans like dogs in the US Embassy in SD?