Are we truly created equal???

[NALs]

Are we all created equal?

Yes, we are all created equal and its lots of fun - not so much to be created as it is to create! :cheeky:

However, are we all equals?

No, we are not all equals.

I have a hard time believing the "we are all equal" argument in a world where kids are born with Down Syndrome, where some people's lives are cut short by cancer, where some people are born deaf, blind, etc.

If we were truly equal, then:

A) Imperfections that are so pervasive in humanity would simply no exist given that for equality to truly exist there has to be some form of perfection and humans are anything but perfect!

B) Its nearly impossible to make the argument that a person with Down Syndrome has the same abilities and is able to take advantage of all the opportunities and succeed as people with no disability would. Its just not true, if it was then people with disability would not need extra care and attention to be up to par with people who don't have a disability.

And its not just those differences, there are other differences that, unfortunately, do influences people's prospects in life. Some people are stronger than others, some are more intelligent than others, some are healthier than others, some are better at making decisions than others, some are more lazy than others, some have more luck than others, etc.

This is a list that is very long.

Having said that, all humans are more alike than different. That is not just my belief, its fact.

Other than being born with a disability, most differences are the result of upbringing and the environment. But, those differences are not illusions, they are real.

We are not all equals, but we are more alike than different.

By the way and I feel I must include the following because someone will take what I just said in a way that it was not meant to be taken.

There is no such thing as inequality in people's abilities based on sex, skin color, race, or nationality. What makes each person different is more often the result of bad luck (ie. born with a disability) or the effects of upbringing (ie. abusive childhood, affected by discrimination, etc), and its highly personal, irrelevant of race, or skin color, or any other superficial category that many people try to use to create racist and sexist ideas of the differences present in humans.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

The whole being poor but happy vs rich but unhappy argument is fine until you apply it to reality. Yes it is true that there are many materialistic, wealthy people who are unhappy and always want more. But there are also very many poor people who are unhappy, it's not like you can walk around in life with no money, support a familly, and be happy - especially in haiti. Lack of water, food, resources one needs to survive to not come for free - people need to work for those things. Do you think the hatian guy hammering away at concrete all day in the sun is gushing with hapiness??? I think he probably has his moments, but for the most part is doing what he does to get by.

I think Chris Rock put it best: "they say money can't buy hapiness, but I can tell you one thing, poverty doesn't buy happiness either."

That notion that most rich people are unhappy is bull, in my opinion. Most rich people are happy, not due to the material things, but due to family, friends, you know, the simple things in life.

Those very same simple things is what creates happiness among the poorest of the poor as well and among the middle class, among all humans.

The most unhappy people on earth tend to be people who believe that things are more important than people (these are never content with what they have) and people who were simply unlucky in life (ie. has several family members killed, experienced a horrible type of abuse, etc). Notice, having a fortune has nothing to do with being unhappy.

Most people who are unhappy are people who suffer from putting things above people regardless of finances or social class.

Only people that are envious of the rich would ever actually believe that most rich people are miserable and materialistic.

In the same way, only well off people who fear poverty would believe that all poor people are miserable and materialistic as well, but not having the means to gain the material things they covet.

-NALs

 

[montreal]

Senor, we ARE created equal....

Just NOT treated as if we ARE.

Miguel, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I believe we are all born equal but are products of the environment we grow up in.

 

[Chip]

AZB

Great topic, but it does touch on some sensitive points, at least per the rules of this forum. For my part, since I am a believer in one God and an afterlife have no problem believing that all men ARE equaly loved by the Creator, the good and the bad, the rich and the poor, the happy and the suffering. When one realizes there is more to this life than what we see and that it is temporary, it is not such a stretch to see that suffering is only temporary too. Nonetheless, this doesn't mean that a person should allow his fellow man to suffer if he can help, by all means this is an obligation, no matter how simple the effort. I personally believe that many of those who carry such apparent burdens will receive a much greater reward than someone like myself, who has not really wanted for much things in a material sense (even though I grew up in the lower middle class and we weren't rich by any stretch of the imagination).

 

[Robert]

AZB

I am a believer in one God and an afterlife have no problem believing that all men ARE equaly loved by the Creator, the good and the bad, the rich and the poor, the happy and the suffering. When one realizes there is more to this life than what we see and that it is temporary, it is not such a stretch to see that suffering is only temporary too....

Let that be the last of any religious mumbo jumbo.

Are we all created equal? Of course not. Sadly some people are born unequal with mental or physical disabilities etc.

When all the apples are the same, then we become victims of circumstance.

The only people that boast about being poor are the rich.

 

[NALs]

The only people that boast about being poor are the rich.

That's a good one!

-NALs

 

[KeithF]

Yes, we are "created equal".

In being 'created equal' we are all dependent upon someone else to nurture us in our formative years, otherwise, we will die. In that we are literally, equal.

And it is then the opportunity, the nurture that makes us different. Has an adult with Downs Syndrome in England/Canada/US got a 'better' quality of life than a displaced, starving adult in Darfur region of Sudan?

We come in to this world and go out of this world as equals. But the bit in between relies upon luck and fluke of where we were born and who we were born to. That's what makes us unequal.

 

[Chip]

Let that be the last of any religious mumbo jumbo.

Are we all created equal? Of course not. Sadly some people are born unequal with mental or physical disabilities etc.
When all the apples are the same, then we become victims of circumstance.

The only people that boast about being poor are the rich.

If one sees people only in terms of physical qualities this would be true. For those who think there is nothing more and whatever else is irrelevant, enjoy it while you can. In deference to your rules Robert, I'm signing out on this one.

 

[Chris]

I think we're talking about this life Chip. Yes, we're created equal but we grow up unequal. I cannot help myself ... some pigs are more equal than others no? :laugh:

Besides the jokes, AZB, relating your experience is good. Mahatma Ghandi said that poverty is the worst form of violence.

 

[AZB]

Who was the wise one who said, "no one suffers like the poor"?
AZB

 

[Frog17112]

I think we're talking about this life Chip. Yes, we're created equal but we grow up unequal. I cannot help myself ... some pigs are more equal than others no? :laugh:

Besides the jokes, AZB, relating your experience is good. Mahatma Ghandi said that poverty is the worst form of violence.

Okay...we have two levels of argument here.

1. Lots of differences from a materialistic approach...duh!!!

2. No difference from a spiritual approach...not even possible. If you believe in God and that we are all God's children then we are all connected through the same medium, your gain is my gain, your loss is my loss...no possibility for inequality.

Frog17112, the boss said no discussion of religion. You may not be aware that we steer clear of discussing religion on the forums. It causes too much heartburn and bellyache. (Besides the fact that we better listen when the boss speaks!)

 

[miguel]

Verdad......

We come in to this world and go out of this world as equals. But the bit in between relies upon luck and fluke of where we were born and who we were born to. That's what makes us unequal.

Indeed!.....

 

[AZB]

Originally Posted by KeithF
We come in to this world and go out of this world as equals. But the bit in between relies upon luck and fluke of where we were born and who we were born to. That's what makes us unequal.
Indeed!.....

So intelligence of a person has no play in this belief? What is someone is born more smarter than the other? For this reason so many students drop off in college and the rest advance forward in their careers. What about the dominican maids, why do you think they are paid so little? They are paid acccording to their level of understanding of their jobs. Have you noticed how stupid they are? they do everything wrong and you have to be there to corrrect them in every step of the way and yet they still manage to screw up. Now if you folks who live outside of this country, will not know what i am talking about here.
So i think no one is born equal because some are born healthier than others and others are born just more intelligent so when they are all growing up, many excel forward and others get left behind. This is the fact of life.
AZB

 

[DrChrisHE]

Love that quote...

Senor, we ARE created equal....

Just NOT treated as if we ARE.

I love this quote...may I use it (with credit of course!)?

Disparity in this world is much more evident (to me at least) in the DR than in other places. Something that initially drove me crazy (but I am used to it now--still don't accept it) is that you are treated better the lighter your skin (and hair--and if your hair is straight and blonde as mine is, well...you get the idea.) My children notice it all the time and constantly ask why this happens. If you want to know things like this, ask a young child. They won't sugar coat it and they'll tell you EXACTLY how it is.:bunny:

 

[PICHARDO]

Yes, we are "created equal".

In being 'created equal' we are all dependent upon someone else to nurture us in our formative years, otherwise, we will die. In that we are literally, equal.

And it is then the opportunity, the nurture that makes us different. Has an adult with Downs Syndrome in England/Canada/US got a 'better' quality of life than a displaced, starving adult in Darfur region of Sudan?

We come in to this world and go out of this world as equals. But the bit in between relies upon luck and fluke of where we were born and who we were born to. That's what makes us unequal.

If that was the case, Japanese newborns would have been the boomers(Avatars) of today with no close competition to speak of in ANY field of applied knowledge-socio-economics...

I know this much (I totally deny any actual tests in real life ever) could be the best tangible proof of our inequality:
If you placed 5 newborns in a controlled environment where such individuals were paired with unrelated parental units, who at the same time were pre-trained and fitted with all the required equipment unnoticeable to the kids by simple view, to allow the parents to do things a normal person can't under a 100% controlled rigged environment; you could in fact develop the minds of those children way beyond our natural (within our normal today's range) abilities.

For example, you could allow the parental units to mentally control objects, in this case baby-bottles, to be placed in their hands without any physical need of displacement of hands. The children will be allowed to retain the knowledge that such actions are dispensable normal and expected of them.
The human brain is of such capabilities that only our given limitations on the learning curve do in fact limits the full use of its potential.

If you had rigged the entire environment to be able to make such awesome displays of mental ability a normal and common happening to those children, it would be a matter of time till they're able to develop their mental to physical awareness beyond that which was accomplished via a rigged environment.

But the truth is who would allow their child to be reared as an experiment for the major part of their natural life, just to be used as some guinea pig? Even any private or government administration would be far stretching the moral line to do so.

Not so long ago several secret projects conducted by several governments used the mental abilities of some people to project their awareness to be able to remotely penetrate locations with pinpoint accuracy and freedom of movement. The test proved that it could be done but the subjects were rendered useless after just some hours of actual remote projection to useless in ratios too uneven to compensate for the intelligence gathered of the locations.

Just as the tests provided it was a % of the subjects who retained some to best ability to perform such undertakings, as such you could just as easily substantiate that the former test on newborns would fall into this category for % of actual kids that would turn out to be able to retain and expand on their capabilities after they concluded their simulations under constant supervised and rigged formative years.

That concludes that we all are NOT equals.
Even when provided with the same environments and tools there would be major disparities among the subjects regardless.

 

[Lambada]

. What about the dominican maids, why do you think they are paid so little?

Maybe something to do with laws of demand and supply? Or maybe something to do with expectations in an exploitative culture? Or maybe something to do with lack of unionisation? Or maybe something to do with levels of poverty? Or maybe..............you get the drift I'm sure.

Forgive me if I don't contribute much to the debate about intelligence - it has been a very long time since I studied Piaget, Binet, Einstein, Wittgenstein etc etc (albeit maybe not as long as some ). I just don't feel I could summarise a whole field of academic study in a post.

 

[PICHARDO]

I love this quote...may I use it (with credit of course!)?

Disparity in this world is much more evident (to me at least) in the DR than in other places. Something that initially drove me crazy (but I am used to it now--still don't accept it) is that you are treated better the lighter your skin (and hair--and if your hair is straight and blonde as mine is, well...you get the idea.) My children notice it all the time and constantly ask why this happens. If you want to know things like this, ask a young child. They won't sugar coat it and they'll tell you EXACTLY how it is.:bunny:

You noted evidently "more" in the DR because in your country of origin you and your children were not the minority when it came to racial and social divides.
Like an African friend of mine told me, in his country he sees the non-blacks as outsiders and the society as a whole, but when he's in the US he feels the impact those outsiders must feel in his country first hand himself.

 

[DrChrisHE]

minority vs. majority treatment & reactive attachment disorder

You noted evidently "more" in the DR because in your country of origin you and your children were not the minority when it came to racial and social divides.
Like an African friend of mine told me, in his country he sees the non-blacks as outsiders and the society as a whole, but when he's in the US he feels the impact those outsiders must feel in his country first hand himself.

Yes, I agree except for the fact that we are treated BETTER because we are in the minority. It feels like apartheid! We've tried to raise our kids with the concept that all living things have inherent worth and dignity, with the capacity to contribute to society (we are Unitarians Universalists and in respect for the non-religion debate I won't go further into the tenets of UUs).

For those debating the controlled environment issue...The NAZIs did just this with their twin studies. If you want to look at some of the most documented (anally so even in my researcher's opinion) and controlled studies of 'innate' intelligence vs environment, check out those studies. This whole debate about controlling the environment raises at least two things in my mind. One is not so serious...remember the show Alias with Jennifer Garner? That show was based on this. Second, ALL parents do their own form of 'experimenting' (albeit not double blind Randomized Controlled Trials.) Raising kids (as opposed to allowing them to run wild) is a giant experiment of what works and what doesn't. Because of "natural experiments" like mass numbers of babies being put into childcare at very young ages, we are seeing the results now in teens and young adults (and yes, I DO consider myself a feminist but SOME continuity of care is necessary for babies to build trust--see John Bowlby's work); thus, I believe a parent or grandparent or aunt/uncle needs to be a primary caregiver who is THERE for that kid. We have kids blowing each other away in the US partially because they are suffering Reactive Attachment Disorder. If anyone is interested in RAD, let me know and I'll share more detail.

Fascinating topic of discussion. Thank you all for contributing.

 

[Ricardo900]

Subtracting Physical, Mental and/or Racial Barriers one may have or face in their country. Babies are born equal and their parents and environment will determine their level of equality with their peers. It starts day one.

Two dominican babies born at the same time,

1) parents are poor and live in the Campos of Moca with all of the negatives of growing up poor and dominican.

2) parents are upper class and live in Cerros Gurabo with all of the positives of growing up rich and dominican.

No equals, that's life.

Ricardo
"God Created Man, Sam Colt made 'em EQUAL!"

 

[M.A.R.]

AZB's story of the Haitian worker should touch us like it did AZB, it should be a scene to make us be more compasionate towards others. I know many are against illegal immigration in every part of the world but how can you deny someone a chance to make a little bit more money than they were making in their country so they can feed themselves or their families???? What AZB did was such an incredible gesture, to give this guy some money for lunch, very nice AZB.

One time I saw a similar scene in Las Colinas, Santiago, these Haitian workers were working in a house being constructed and the supervisor was yelling all kinds of obscenities at them, just being cruel and there was nothing they could do, they needed the job.