BBC News: Over 200 People Violently Killed in 10 Days

JD Jones

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Here is the Actual Most Important post --
A very interesting document indeed.
 
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stateofmind

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Great read. Of course we all knew about the France thing but I was unaware of the Aristide scenario. And just recently I've learned about the CitiGroup involvement in the stealing of Haiti's gold a bit over 100 years ago. I wonder if it will ever get resolved.
I expect Hell to freeze over before any restitution is made to Haiti by any entity, country or corrupt Haitian politician.
 

mountainannie

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Great read. Of course we all knew about the France thing but I was unaware of the Aristide scenario. And just recently I've learned about the CitiGroup involvement in the stealing of Haiti's gold a bit over 100 years ago. I wonder if it will ever get resolved.
From the Just Security article QUOTE
The Times’ meticulous exposé of the massive debt that France illegally extorted from Haiti after its independence demonstrates how the payments – totaling an estimated $21-115 billion – kept Haiti poor and unstable for two centuries. The investigation also documented that the U.S. Marines’ forced transfer of $500,000 in gold from Haiti’s national bank to CitiGroup in New York in 1914, and the 19-year occupation that followed, was spurred in part by pressure from Wall Street.

Haiti has a strong claim for restitution for this theft and extortion. Haiti only signed the contract for the debt in 1823 because France parked warships off the coast and threatened to invade Haiti and re-enslave its people. Reinstituting slavery was illegal at the time, so the contract for the debt was also illegal. Similarly, CitiGroup, which won the lucrative business of managing Haiti’s loans by convincing the United States to invade, may face claims for restitution of its unjust profits.

But history shows that France, the United States, and other countries whose current prosperity is built in part on a foundation of slavery and immiseration in Haiti have been unwilling to allow Haiti to pursue its claims for justice. The amount France owes Haiti is significant, but even more is at stake. If the descendants of Haitians forced to pay for their emancipation win their restitution claim, they may open the door to a long line of claims for reparations by the descendants of everyone subject to the horrors of slavery and the slave trade."...

There is more context that needs to be added, I think.
The Haitian Revolution (and defeat of Napoleon's forces) was in 1803 https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/haitian-independence-proclaimed

The US Constitution --Written in 1787, ratified in 1788, and in operation since 1789, the United States Constitution is the world's longest surviving written charter of ... was at the time a slave owning, slave trading, and slave transporting nation at the time of Haiti's independence

ALL the existing US territory was involved in slavery.
Quote - A majority of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and nearly half of the delegates to the Constitutional Convention owned slaves. Four of the first five presidents of the United States were slaveowners. (filed.Dec 8, 2020)

So a nation of freed slaves was considered an existential threat.

The US not only sided with France but also enforced a trade blockade to force Haiti to sign...

Haiti paid "reparations" to France - for the LOSS of their most lucrative colony.. for the loss of enslaved labor... until, I believe, 1947
(I am not able to cite a reference since I have read SO Many Books on Haiti)

In order to actually have any MONEY on the ground - the only thing that remained was THE MAHAGONY trees
which are a canopy tree
whose roots hold down the top soil

So.... well..
etc. etc. etc.
 

KyleMackey

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From the Just Security article QUOTE
The Times’ meticulous exposé of the massive debt that France illegally extorted from Haiti after its independence demonstrates how the payments – totaling an estimated $21-115 billion – kept Haiti poor and unstable for two centuries. The investigation also documented that the U.S. Marines’ forced transfer of $500,000 in gold from Haiti’s national bank to CitiGroup in New York in 1914, and the 19-year occupation that followed, was spurred in part by pressure from Wall Street.

Haiti has a strong claim for restitution for this theft and extortion. Haiti only signed the contract for the debt in 1823 because France parked warships off the coast and threatened to invade Haiti and re-enslave its people. Reinstituting slavery was illegal at the time, so the contract for the debt was also illegal. Similarly, CitiGroup, which won the lucrative business of managing Haiti’s loans by convincing the United States to invade, may face claims for restitution of its unjust profits.

But history shows that France, the United States, and other countries whose current prosperity is built in part on a foundation of slavery and immiseration in Haiti have been unwilling to allow Haiti to pursue its claims for justice. The amount France owes Haiti is significant, but even more is at stake. If the descendants of Haitians forced to pay for their emancipation win their restitution claim, they may open the door to a long line of claims for reparations by the descendants of everyone subject to the horrors of slavery and the slave trade."...

There is more context that needs to be added, I think.
The Haitian Revolution (and defeat of Napoleon's forces) was in 1803 https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/haitian-independence-proclaimed

The US Constitution --Written in 1787, ratified in 1788, and in operation since 1789, the United States Constitution is the world's longest surviving written charter of ... was at the time a slave owning, slave trading, and slave transporting nation at the time of Haiti's independence

ALL the existing US territory was involved in slavery.
Quote - A majority of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and nearly half of the delegates to the Constitutional Convention owned slaves. Four of the first five presidents of the United States were slaveowners. (filed.Dec 8, 2020)

So a nation of freed slaves was considered an existential threat.

The US not only sided with France but also enforced a trade blockade to force Haiti to sign...

Haiti paid "reparations" to France - for the LOSS of their most lucrative colony.. for the loss of enslaved labor... until, I believe, 1947
(I am not able to cite a reference since I have read SO Many Books on Haiti)

In order to actually have any MONEY on the ground - the only thing that remained was THE MAHAGONY trees
which are a canopy tree
whose roots hold down the top soil

So.... well..
etc. etc. etc.
Way off topic, and reported. Stick to anti American TDS rants on your twitter account.
 

mountainannie

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What is holding President Biden back is the FIRM voices of Haiti's Civil Society https://twitter.com/moniclesca

And the voices coming from the US Congress
(I confess I did not bother to read the drivel from Univision)

The LAST thing that Haiti needs... really.. is more men with guns.
 
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Yourmaninvegas

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On of the questions I asked was: "If this was a civil war or a criminal gang of control?"
My supposition was that it was a criminal gang out of control.

I based this on the actions and the type of violent acts being committed.
There were those who disputed me.
They are wrong.

I turned out to be right.
Check out the Travel Haiti? thread for more information.
 
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Yourmaninvegas

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Yes, so you have the educated people leaving the country.
And the people left behind fighting for survival over scraps.
And the people of Haiti are supposed to put their country back together with what.
The police say they are outgunned.

Where are the weapons for Haiti...like we see flowing to another country on the current European theater of war?

Haiti is in the backyard of a of North America.
 

mountainannie

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QUOTE:
After a U.S. military intervention of overwhelming force in 1994, a massive U.N. peacekeeping mission 10 years later led by Brazil, plus billions wasted in foreign aid in the aftermath of the 2010 earthquake, almost no one in power – in Washington, Paris, or Brasilia – wants to deploy boots on the ground again.
That includes some Haitians who mock U.N. peacekeepers as “tourists” and grew contemptuous of foreign aid workers driving reinforced Landcruisers and sun bathing on Haiti’s beaches while the country becomes poorer, hungrier, and even more dangerous.
Haiti hosted a massive U.N. peacekeeping force from 2004-2019, which was an utter failure, including bringing an unforgivable cholera outbreak to the country through poor sanitation at a U.N. military base and widespread sexual misconduct by peacekeepers.
 
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mountainannie

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Yes, so you have the educated people leaving the country.
And the people left behind fighting for survival over scraps.
And the people of Haiti are supposed to put their country back together with what.
The police say they are outgunned.

Where are the weapons for Haiti...like we see flowing to another country on the current European theater of war?

Haiti is in the backyard of a of North America.
I am pretty certain that you know of the liberation of India from the British Empire?
And how Ghandi led the NONVIOLENT movement there?

More Guns & Military Intervention will not help.

I heard from an African friend about a political action in,,,??? Nigeria, I think.
When the civil society was so opposed to the government that the women organized and went to house of Parliament
and stood
and took off their clothes.

this so SHAMED the men that ....

So.. that would be one suggestion...

More Men With Guns will not end violence.
And there will be no international military intervention - ojala
 

mountainannie

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Yes, so you have the educated people leaving the country.
And the people left behind fighting for survival over scraps.
And the people of Haiti are supposed to put their country back together with what.
The police say they are outgunned.

Where are the weapons for Haiti...like we see flowing to another country on the current European theater of war?

Haiti is in the backyard of a of North America.

And you suggest that more weapons be sent by the US to a government that is considered illigetime by the population?
 
Jan 9, 2004
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No amount of past repetitious history narratives and the excuses that follow them..............will ever solve the problems of Haiti. Nor will interventions accomplish the goal of righting the Haitian ship.

If history should have taught its proper lesson, then one must recognize that only the Haitian people can solve their dilemma..............however long that takes.

Gang wars, followed by a civil war, followed by several dictators, followed by a transition to some form of peaceful democratic government. They should be ready by 2121.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2