Benefits of living in 3rd world country.

rellosk

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AZB said:
I pay 6 dollars for welding job and I am an "exploiter" and you folks buy jeans that were made by some young kid at 2 dollars / day in a sweat shop in thailand or zona franca in puerto plata, its called "contributing to DR economy".
AZB, no one is accusing you of exploitation because you paid $6 for a welding job. I applaud you for finding a "street mechanic" and getting the best deal.

I believe what people are objecting to your heartless statement where you say, "Now who was the genious (sic) that insists that we should educate the poor dominicans and bring their educational standards up to developed countries level? Are you nuts?"

It's one thing to utilize the low labor costs, but it borders on a robber baron mentality to want to have others suffer so you can benefit.
 

AZB

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rellosk said:
I believe what people are objecting to your heartless statement where you say, "Now who was the genious (sic) that insists that we should educate the poor dominicans and bring their educational standards up to developed countries level? Are you nuts?"
It's one thing to utilize the low labor costs, but it borders on a robber baron mentality to want to have others suffer so you can benefit.
You are missing the point. Like some poster mentioned, these poor folks don't want to change their lifestyle, only the foreigners want to impose their values on them. You folks will not change them at all. These people are happy the way they are. They don't know any other lifestyle. Try giving some poor 10 000 pesos and watch what he does with it. It all starts in their mind: they are poor from the mind to begin with. This is true all over the 3rd world countries' poor people. In pakistan, I saw the same trend among the poor. No wonder the poor keep getting poor and the rich , richer. This is the way things work. Now let it stay the way it it. You can't make a race horse out of a donkey.
AZB
 

Snuffy

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May 3, 2002
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Allow me to further define this point.

Americans are always thinking that their way is the only way. Go into the other country and change it because obviously they don't know what is best for them. Only we Americans know. The intention may be good but the argument is obviously flawed.

You get on this board and say "I love the DR for the people, they are always smiling". Well if they are always smiling then what exactly is it that you think is wrong about their life. They are the ones smiling.

Before this country was rediscovered they lived in huts all over the country, they ate the fruit, they ate fish, raised chickens. They smiled. They may have looked poor but they were actually very rich. And the more I live here the more I realize just how "okay" they are just they way they are. They don't need your goal structured system.

On the Goal System : Who came up with this headache. If you meet your goals you are supposed to feel good about yourself and then make more goals. If you don't meet your goals you feel bad, a failure, a loser. If you continue to not meet your goals you can fall into depression and boy do we know that is true all over the freakin USA. Goals are great for the economy, they wreck havoc on the individual and relationships. It's not so much the concept of the Goal. It is in how people take on the concept. It should be okay to have dreams, have a plan, set some action items. But when it becomes twisted into this monster that controls you, then it is a problem. And that is what it is for the majority of people in the USA who adhere to that lifestyle. But it is a great tool to drive the economy, to move the herd forward. Well, yes...it is a cattle prod.

On Education: My personal view of education is that much of it is worthless. A large part of it is just there to be a product that you can purchase. It is a business. And a large part of it is there to brainwash the masses. To control them. To keep them moving in the direction which is desired by those who actually determine social policies. They place a label on the direction they want the world to move. They call it "Democracy", "Freedom", "Capitalism". But what that means is that they want people all over the world to fall in line with their way of being, doing, and thinking. The GOAL is to extract more profits. What they are actually doing is taking away a peoples right to choose how they will live. They are restricting, not freeing. They define the social structure. Education is a tool.

When AZB made that statement he was saying not to come here and try to change these people and make them into a small USA. Because that is not happiness. It is true...they don't need a USA education. They need a basic quality education. But they don't need the education that creates the conditions we see in the USA. Teach them to read and write, give them a trade. But don't come here and use education to brainwash them into your USA lifestyle. They seem to have a sense that they don't want that to happen. And that is why much of this place stays the way it is. They want to be able to drive down a one way the wrong way, they want less rules not more rules, they want to lounge around and drink cervezas, they want their cabanas, they want two hour lunch breaks.

I'm as quilty as the next guy...bitching about what I am not accustomed to here. I say, "why don't they do this...or that the way it is in the USA". I will probably do that for a long time to come because it is so much a part of me...having lived in the USA most of my life.

Sure they will take whatever you give them. And they are great at prying you lose of your money. But they are okay without it. I once believed that my wifes family needed my financial support, so I gave them money on a regular basis. Then I stopped giving it. Six months later, they were the same people...same life. My financial gifts did not make as much a difference as I thought it did. And now I realize that it was probably my own ego that had me think otherwise.

When the one sister got pregnant for the third time out of wedlock I was the only one upset and bitching. "How can she do this, bringing another child into a world of poverty." Everyone else was smiling and happy. They manage to get by. And the kids are always smiling, laughing, and running and playing and having a good time. Think about it.

When the white man came across to this island and found its inhabitants, the people they found were smiling and okay...and they still are.


AZB said:
You are missing the point. Like some poster mentioned, these poor folks don't want to change their lifestyle, only the foreigners want to impose their values on them. You folks will not change them at all. These people are happy the way they are. They don't know any other lifestyle. Try giving some poor 10 000 pesos and watch what he does with it. It all starts in their mind: they are poor from the mind to begin with. This is true all over the 3rd world countries' poor people. In pakistan, I saw the same trend among the poor. No wonder the poor keep getting poor and the rich , richer. This is the way things work. Now let it stay the way it it. You can't make a race horse out of a donkey.
AZB
 

Ricardo900

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Jul 12, 2004
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Good points

Snuffy,
You made some really good points on GOALS & EDUCATION in the US and it seems that there is a possibility that most dominicans may be happier than most americans even though americans have more money and material things. Dominicans work to live, Americans live to work. Alot of Dominicans in the US have service oriented jobs and they don't complain. The RAT RACE, if I make 6 figures, am I trully better off than my Dominican peers who make only 5 figures,
so what if I live in 2 Bedroom Coop in a great neighborhood
so what if I buy my groceries in high-end shops like D'Agostinos or Dean & Deluca
so what if I wear Evisu jeans $250US or True Religion $200US
so what if I have a I-Pod

Am I trully better off?
 

RHM

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AZB said:
I have been coming to this country since 1986 and living here since 1997. I don't think I have spent 7 yrs living in DR sucking free mangos from my neighbor's trees. Once you live here, you will notice that often the expats know about this country better than many dominicans who are born and raised here. We had to start everything from scratch ex: learning to rent an apartment from a good source, find out the good neighborhoods from the bad. Learn and research into buying furniture, electrinic items, washer, dryer, TV, car, insurance, learn where to work or open up a good business, do promotions and make money. Learn a new language and culture and become part of the respectable society. All this takes research and learning. Nothing comes easy and one has to open up 4 eyes to see what is happening around you. Our curiousity of this island takes us to far reaches of this island that no dominican is interested in going. We often know more about this country than an average domincian because he was born domincian and has no interest in seeing pico duarte beause he knows it will be there tomorrow as well. Same as NY folks who never visit statue of liberty even in 20 yrs. They know its not going anywhere.
So please don't tell me some American (by domincian parents) knows about this country better than myself who lives here 24/7.
AZB

Agreed. 100%. AZB, you are an enigma. One minute you make perfect sense and the next you lose touch with reality. Have you stopped smoking your "hookah"? Not to be confused with "hooker". Or am I thinking of Turkey?
Never mind.

Scandall
 

Robert

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Snuffy said:
Allow me to further define this point.

blah, blah, blah...

You get on this board...

Great post!

As I have always said, the thing I hate the most is when people try to inflict their values on another country.

Adapt or die and when in Rome...
 
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RHM

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Robert said:
Great post!

As I have always said, the thing I hate the most is when people try to inflict their values on another country.

Adapt or die and when in Rome...

There are 300 million Americans. Nobody knows them all. In fact it is the most diverse country on earth. Every religion is practiced there, every language (even some dead ones) are spoken there and people have all kinds of opinions etc etc. Try not to stereotype all of them. I try not to paint Dominicans with the same brush and there are only 9 million of them. I'm sure you get the point.

Scandall
 

Criss Colon

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"Nice Try" Snuffy! If ONLY It Were That Simple!

In the World,throughout history,we find Cultures that "Produce" and those that "Subsist"! The DR,"Subsists"! Nothing wrong with that.Those Countries that "Produce" are what makes the Human Condition more comfortable.
I will give the Dominican People credit,They can keep a smile on their face through the most difficult situations!There may be a more stoic People,I just haven't met them yet..But don't fool yourself they too suffer,if usually only in silence.
How would you like to know that the chances of your child leading virtually the same life as you is about 100%?? No education,no healthcare,a government that steals all the money they collect,poor nutrition,poor sanitation,no stable energy supply,chances of being a victim of crime and or violence 100%,Alcoholism rampant in your society! (You know what happens to children,and adults too for that matter,who have leukemia,need chronic dialysis,or an organ traansplant,or have AIDS" in the DR?THey DIE!..."Happy" or NOT!)The "List" goes on and on.
I happen to think that "Education" is the greatest gift a society can bestow upon it's people! Education is the fertilizer that makes everything else grow!Dominicans have never had the opportunity to develope a "Thirst For Knowledge".The "Force" within a People that moves them forward.No great scientists here.Not much learning just for the pleasure of expanding your horizons.
Taken to the extreme,your "laissez Faire" approach to the Dominican status quo would just lead to chaos and disease.Sometimes someone,or some People, just have to be the ones to move the Human Race ahead.The United States,Canada,England,Europe,Austrailia,Japan,NewZealand,happen to be some Countries that have made that commitment.
Those who live and work in the "Rat Race",at least have the time and money to come to the DR for a two week relaxing vacation once a year.To bad the Dominicans can't visit our countries for a while to develope a work ethic!
I find your comment "vis-a-vi" Dominicans to be very condescending."Ignorance" is NOT Bliss!They are not "Poor but Happy".They are poor and suffering".
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Robert

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Scandall said:
There are 300 million Americans. Nobody knows them all. In fact it is the most diverse country on earth. Every religion is practiced there, every language (even some dead ones) are spoken there and people have all kinds of opinions etc etc. Try not to stereotype all of them. I try not to paint Dominicans with the same brush and there are only 9 million of them. I'm sure you get the point.

Scandall

Did I mention Americans?
I said "people"... I think that covers the world?
 

RHM

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Criss Colon said:
In the World,throughout history,we find Cultures that "Produce" and those that "Subsist"! The DR,"Subsists"! Nothing wrong with that.Those Countries that "Produce" are what makes the Human Condition more comfortable.
I will give the Dominican People credit,They can keep a smile on their face through the most difficult situations!There may be a more stoic People,I just haven't met them yet..But don't fool yourself they too suffer,if usually only in silence.
How would you like to know that the chances of your child leading virtually the same life as you is about 100%?? No education,no healthcare,a government that steals all the money they collect,poor nutrition,poor sanitation,no stable energy supply,chances of being a victim of crime and or violence 100%,Alcoholism rampant in your society! (You know what happens to children,and adults too for that matter,who have leukemia,need chronic dialysis,or an organ traansplant,or have AIDS" in the DR?THey DIE!..."Happy" or NOT!)The "List" goes on and on.
I happen to think that "Education" is the greatest gift a society can bestow upon it's people! Education is the fertilizer that makes everything else grow!Dominicans have never had the opportunity to develope a "Thirst For Knowledge".The "Force" within a People that moves them forward.No great scientists here.Not much learning just for the pleasure of expanding your horizons.
Taken to the extreme,your "laissez Faire" approach to the Dominican status quo would just lead to chaos and disease.Sometimes someone,or some People, just have to be the ones to move the Human Race ahead.The United States,Canada,England,Europe,Austrailia,Japan,NewZealand,happen to be some Countries that have made that commitment.
Those who live and work in the "Rat Race",at least have the time and money to come to the DR for a two week relaxing vacation once a year.To bad the Dominicans can't visit our countries for a while to develope a work ethic!
I find your comment "vis-a-vi" Dominicans to be very condescending."Ignorance" is NOT Bliss!They are not "Poor but Happy".They are poor and suffering".
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Very well said, Colon. Especially for such a typical, ignorant, uncultured, egotistical American as you. You must be "European" or perhaps even Pakistani.

Scandall
 

Robert

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Criss Colon said:
Dominicans to be very condescending."Ignorance" is NOT Bliss!They are not "Poor but Happy".They are poor and suffering".
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Maybe poor in the pocket, but not usually poor in the head or heart, unlike some first world citizens I have come across on my travels.
Suffering by who's standards?

Out of curiosity, what is the definition of the "poverty level" in the DR?
 

Robert

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Scandall said:
No, you didn't. The post your were complimenting did.

Scandall

I didn't want to quote all the post as it takes up a lot of space.
So I quoted the first part. Let me go back and make you feel better.
 

xamaicano

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Apr 16, 2004
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As someone who was born and raised in a 3rd world country, I thank god that my parents who grew up in poverty, got an education, set goals and set about to accomplish them by working hard so that I could have options. I guess that's one of the luxuries of been from a wealthy country, you can romanticize poverty. There is joy in accomplishment, to pursue a passion even if it takes hard work, to contribute to greater cause of humanity, to be a part of progress or at the very least to have the choice.
 

AZB

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Jan 2, 2002
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Snuffy made very valid points. I agree 100%.
My point is, domincians are doing just fine the way they are. yes,they all want more money and more comfort; who doesn't. But in the end, we have more average happy domincians here than average happy americans in USA. why do you think americans always complain?
AZB
 

Snuffy

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May 3, 2002
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Criss Colon said:
In the World,throughout history,we find Cultures that "Produce" and those that "Subsist"! The DR,"Subsists"! Nothing wrong with that.Those Countries that "Produce" are what makes the Human Condition more comfortable.
I will give the Dominican People credit,They can keep a smile on their face through the most difficult situations!There may be a more stoic People,I just haven't met them yet..But don't fool yourself they too suffer,if usually only in silence.
How would you like to know that the chances of your child leading virtually the same life as you is about 100%?? No education,no healthcare,a government that steals all the money they collect,poor nutrition,poor sanitation,no stable energy supply,chances of being a victim of crime and or violence 100%,Alcoholism rampant in your society! (You know what happens to children,and adults too for that matter,who have leukemia,need chronic dialysis,or an organ traansplant,or have AIDS" in the DR?THey DIE!..."Happy" or NOT!)The "List" goes on and on.
I happen to think that "Education" is the greatest gift a society can bestow upon it's people! Education is the fertilizer that makes everything else grow!Dominicans have never had the opportunity to develope a "Thirst For Knowledge".The "Force" within a People that moves them forward.No great scientists here.Not much learning just for the pleasure of expanding your horizons.
Taken to the extreme,your "laissez Faire" approach to the Dominican status quo would just lead to chaos and disease.Sometimes someone,or some People, just have to be the ones to move the Human Race ahead.The United States,Canada,England,Europe,Austrailia,Japan,NewZealand,happen to be some Countries that have made that commitment.
Those who live and work in the "Rat Race",at least have the time and money to come to the DR for a two week relaxing vacation once a year.To bad the Dominicans can't visit our countries for a while to develope a work ethic!
I find your comment "vis-a-vi" Dominicans to be very condescending."Ignorance" is NOT Bliss!They are not "Poor but Happy".They are poor and suffering".
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

No...I think they are Poor, Suffering, and Happy. And I think that many many many people in the USA are Not Poor, Suffering, and Unhappy.

And when I have more time I will respond in more detail.
 

Escott

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AZB said:
Snuffy made very valid points. I agree 100%.
My point is, domincians are doing just fine the way they are. yes,they all want more money and more comfort; who doesn't. But in the end, we have more average happy domincians here than average happy americans in USA. why do you think americans always complain?
AZB
Which Scientific Study did you gleem these comments from? Was it the AZB thought of the week? I would guess it to be the latter where you pass off your own feelings as fact for the rest of the US. Yes, I know I watch too much CNN but what the heck!

The people that both move here or read here are or have been looking for a way out of what they had, whether from the US, Canada or Europe. No big surprise there. I would bet that the happy satisfied people of these countries probably wouldn't even have a reason to read this message board. Don't let these thoughts take you away from what you are trying to do though.

Escott
 

Escott

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Snuffy said:
No...I think they are Poor, Suffering, and Happy. And I think that many many many people in the USA are Not Poor, Suffering, and Unhappy.

And when I have more time I will respond in more detail.
Sure, I guess that is why all the happy people that die on Yolas DIE? These must be real happy people that risk their lives and everything they have accomplished on a trip to who knows where or what!

Escott