Border Fence

windeguy

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My best guess on the wall urgency now is that things are getting worse all the time in Haiti and the DR is doing what it thinks is correct to protect itself.
A Humanitarian Catastrophe is quite the understatement.




 
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Yourmaninvegas

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World Report 2014

"Election delays, natural disasters, and the persistence of a deadly cholera epidemic continue to hinder the Haitian government’s efforts to meet the basic needs of its people and address long-standing human rights problems, such as violence against women and inhumane prison conditions.

Postponement of national and local elections originally scheduled for 2011 continued to foster political uncertainty and undermine the right to political participation. As of October, one-third of Senate seats remained vacant and the fate of another third was uncertain due to conflicting interpretations of a 2008 electoral law. At the local level, terms for elected posts in 129 of the country’s 140 municipalities also expired in 2011. The administration of President Michel Martelly filled these posts with political appointees in 2012. With prompting by the United Nations and other international actors, Martelly convoked a special session of Parliament on November 22 to consider a draft electoral law for regulating the overdue elections. At time of writing, the session had not met.

A wave of anti-government protests beginning in October led to confrontations between protestors and Martelly supporters, which raised concerns about the resurgence of political violence in the country.

As of June 2013, 280,000 internally displaced persons (IDPs) were living in camps established in the aftermath of the 2010 earthquake, according to the UN. The International Organization for Migration estimated that of 71,000 displaced households, 57,000 have no prospect of IDP sites, while at least 21,000 could face eviction. Nearly 1,200 households were evicted between January and June, often with the involvement of the police or other government entities.

The three-year-old cholera epidemic continues to claim lives, with an estimated 8,500 people killed and 694,000 infected since October 2010. Damage caused by Hurricane Sandy in October 2012 and droughts affected harvests, contributing to high levels of food insecurity.

Deficiencies in the Criminal Justice System and Detention Conditions​

Haiti’s prison system remains severely overcrowded, in large part due to high numbers of arbitrary arrests and prolonged pretrial detentions. Public health efforts by the government and the UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH) reduced the rate of inmate deaths in the first half of the year, which had spiked in 2012.

The weak capacity of the Haitian National Police (HNP) contributes to overall insecurity in the country. While the government and MINUSTAH have made reforming the police a priority, there have been difficulties training sufficient numbers of entry-level cadets. Oversight and accountability within the HNP remain weak, and investigations made by the Inspectorate General of the police into human rights abuses by police made little progress.

Accountability for Past Abuses​

Former President Jean-Claude Duvalier returned to Haiti in January 2011 after nearly 25 years in exile. He was charged with financial and human rights crimes allegedly committed during his 15-year tenure as president. From 1971 to 1986, Duvalier commanded a network of security forces that committed serious human rights violations, including arbitrary detentions, torture, disappearances, summary executions, and forced exile.

In 2012, the investigating judge in the case found, contrary to international standards, that the statute of limitations prevented prosecuting Duvalier for his human rights crimes. An appellate court heard testimony in a challenge to the ruling over several months beginning in February. Duvalier appeared in court on February 28 and answered questions posed by the court and victims’ attorneys. At time of writing, the court had not issued its ruling.

Violence against Women​

Gender-based violence is a widespread problem. Draft revisions to Haiti’s criminal code, which at time of writing were awaiting approval of the Council of Ministers before introduction to Parliament, include acts of gender-based violence, such as rape and sexual assault, not currently in the code.

Women seeking accountability for sexual violence crimes encounter multiple obstacles, including reproach by members of the public or threats. In one high-profile case, a woman pressed charges against a former justice minister, claiming he had raped her in 2012. She subsequently reported receiving multiple death threats, which led her to withdraw her criminal complaint.

Violence Based on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity​

Public statements by religious leaders in June led to a spate of protests and violence targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex (LGBTI) people. The Haitian nongovernmental organization SEROvie documented 47 cases violence targeting LGBTI persons between July 17 and 24, including attacks with knives, machetes, cement blocks, rocks, and sticks. At least three victims were hospitalized. On July 21, the Haitian government issued a statement condemning homophobic violence. Investigations into crimes against LGBTI persons rarely progress, however, and police and justice officials lack training on issues related to sexual orientation and gender identity.

Children’s Domestic Labor​

Use of child domestic workers—known as restavèks—continues. Restavèks, the majority of whom are girls, are sent from low-income households to live with wealthier families in the hope that they will be schooled and cared for in exchange for performing light chores. Though difficult to calculate, some estimates suggest that 225,00 children work as restavèks. These children are often unpaid, denied education, and physically or sexually abused. Haiti’s labor code does not set a minimum age for work in domestic services, though the minimum age for work in industrial, agricultural and commercial enterprises is set at 15.

Human Rights Defenders​

Human rights defenders face threats of violence. Patrick Florvilus, a pro bono lawyer, reported receiving death threats since representing two men injured (one later died) during a police intervention in an IDP camp in April. In August, the court in Port-au-Prince summoned Florvilus in connection with a criminal arson case against him, which he alleged is frivolous and meant to intimidate him.

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights issued precautionary measures in October 2012 for human rights lawyer Mario Joseph and considered measures for two other lawyers, André Michel and Newton Saint Juste. On October 22, 2013, police detained Michel, who has filed corruption charges against members of Martelly’s family. The following morning his supporters stormed the Port-au-Prince courthouse where he was due to appear, freed him, and brought him to the offices of the powerful Port-au-Prince Bar Association. The attempted arrest sparked a lawyers’ strike preventing courts in the capital from functioning.

In August,unknown gunmen shot into the home of Malya Villard Apollon, co-director of the Commission of Women Victims for Victims (KOFAVIV). In September and October, unknown assailants harassed and threatened activists working at KOFAVIV, and poisoned Apollon’s two dogs. In November, three armed men attacked the offices of the LGBTI organization Kouraj, assaulted two of its members, and stole computers and files containing confidential information about people in the group. The incident followed months of anonymous threats instructing organization leaders to cease advocacy on behalf of LGBTI persons.

Key International Actors​

The UN mission, MINUSTAH, has been in Haiti since 2004 and has contributed to efforts to improve public security, protect vulnerable groups, and strengthen the country’s democratic institutions.

In October 2010, allegations surfaced that a contingent of UN peacekeepers was the source of the cholera epidemic. A 2011 UN independent investigation found that the outbreak was caused by a South Asian strain of the cholera bacteria, but stopped short of identifying peacekeepers as the source. However, in July 2013, scientists from the UN panel stated that evidence presented by numerous scientific studies now supported the conclusion that MINUSTAH soldiers most likely had introduced the strain.

The Ministry of Public Health and Population continues to document hundreds of cases of the illness weekly, resulting in dozens of deaths monthly: in August, it reported that cholera had killed 8,173 people and infected 664,282 since October 2010, with 258 deaths and 28,800 infections in the first half of 2013. The UN reports the number of humanitarian organizations participating in the cholera response, as well as medical stocks needed to treat projected cases, has fallen significantly since 2012.

In October 2013, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay publicly stated that cholera victims should be provided compensation, although she did not specify who should be responsible for funding the reparation. Also in October, the Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti and the Bureau des Avocats Internationaux filed a class-action law suit against the UN in a US federal court in New York. The claim calls for the UN to pay US$2.2 billion for a cholera eradication program and an unspecified amount in damages for 679,000 individual victims. At time of writing, plaintiffs had not affected service of notice of the complaint on the UN; therefore the UN had not responded to the claim in court.

The Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti and the Bureau des Avocats Internationaux filed a claim directly with the UN in November 2011 on behalf of 5,000 cholera victims, alleging that MINUSTAH was the proximate cause of their illness. The claim sought the installation of a national water and sanitation system, financial compensation for individual victims, and a public apology from the UN. In February 2013, the UN informed the victims by letter that the claims were not “receivable,” citing the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the UN.

According to UN figures, at least 81 allegations of sexual abuse or exploitation have been made against MINUSTAH personnel in the last six years, including 16 in 2013, as of mid-November.

The UN Security Council extended MINUSTAH's mandate through October 15, 2014."


For the individuals inclined to guess...here is some solid information.
Now read it and tell me Haiti was in such good shape in 2014 as to NOT warrant a wall back then.
At least the project started and completed back then would have cost less and would have had the added benefit of being in place for 6 - 8 years.
And please do not give me a the better late than never cliche :poop:
If Haiti represent a threat to national security, my suggestion is to build a strong military.
Didn't a fictional Col. once say: "Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You?"
Defensive fortifications come later.
 

windeguy

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Vegas, In 2014 the DR had a "talks a lot but do almost nothing" PLD government.

Now we have a different government with a President that actually takes some of the actions that are necessary.
 

mountainannie

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Don't know if you have gotten the news to the break through at the Codevi GroupoM plant in Dajabon? Two Haitians killed? The DR government says it is all calm .. and "all the trouble was on the Haitian side" -- perhaps they think that others do not know that the ENTIRE project is On The Haitian side? it is a little blip in the topography -- Haitian farmers were evicted for the project -- and the plant constructed with DR army protection. ... just an aside.. it is BIG news over on the Haitian forums but not so much news here in the DR...
 
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CristoRey

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You answering a question with a question.
So you have responded to my post.
But you did not answer my question.

What country in the world is in the position to absorb refugees from an armed conflict ❓
Whether or not they are prepared is a "good question" indeed.
I can tell you which one's are doing it.

USA - from Afghanistan, Somalia, Syria, Ukraine
Canada - from Afghanistan, Syria
England - from Libya , Afghanistan
France - from Libya , Afghanistan. Somalia, Syria
Sweden - from Afghanistan, Somali
Belgium - from Libya , Lebanon, Syria
Czech Republic - from Syria, Ukraine
Germany from - Libya , Syria, Ukraine
Poland - from Ukraine
Turkey - from Afghanistan, Libya , Syria, Ukraine

These are just a few which came to mind but I've no doubt there are a
few more out there.
 
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NALs

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My best guess on the wall urgency now is that things are getting worse all the time in Haiti and the DR is doing what it thinks is correct to protect itself.
The border fence should had been completed a long time ago, but the DR government upon the arrival of Leonel Fernández in 1996 had a change in policy. Rather than doing what was in its interest, it attempted to appease the outcry of various mostly US-based NGO’s and the international media (in reality is mostly US and European, the rest of the world cares little of the DR or Haiti). It was allowed for the Haitian presence to increase on the belief that as it becomes evident that overall Dominicans aren’t as these NGO’s and international media presents vis-a-vis the Haitians, it would cause a change in the message.

What has happened is what various Dominicans have been stating all along. That message they created isn’t based on anything the DR or Dominicans do, rather they simply want for the entire island to be a part of Haiti.

The Dominican government isn’t taking the naive approach since 1996 and is tackling the problem regardless what the NGO’s and international media says or think. They helped to make the DR government deaf to their yapping regarding this issue.

A similar approach lead Leonel Fernández to ascribe the DR into the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. The NGO’s and pro-Haitian organizations basically used that to constantly attack the DR, reaching a point where every instance when the DR was taken to that court was on the basis of Haitians. Every time, regardless if the DR was correct or not, the DR lost the case. Once the DR got out of that, the attacks miraculously stopped.

The DR needs to do what is in its own interest and turn a deaf ear to the naysayer. Their true intentions and hipocrisy is on display.
 
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Yourmaninvegas

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What is the actual status of wall construction at this time ❓





The border fence should had been completed a long time ago, but the DR government upon the arrival of Leonel Fernández in 1996 had a change in policy.
Interesting should of would of could of.
The leaders of the Dominican Government arrive every time the people of the Dominican Republic goto the polls.
The success of the current iteration of the Dominican Government will be evaluated the people of the Dominican Republic at the next election.
Million USD a mile.
Only time will tell if it is worth it.
 
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mountainannie

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A border fence would have no effect at the CODEVI Plant. The entrance is inside Dajabon. It is a little blip of land .
Built with World Bank Money
To take advantage of the really really disgustingly low wages in Haiti... (less than $5 us a day.. although not sure what they are paid there now.. would love any first hand info - it would help me with Haitian Twitter which is blowing up)
 

windeguy

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Interesting should of would of could of.
The leaders of the Dominican Government arrive every time the people of the Dominican Republic goto the polls.
The success of the current iteration of the Dominican Government will be evaluated the people of the Dominican Republic at the next election.
Million USD a mile.
Only time will tell if it is worth it.
Two votes for the border wall at my house.
 
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JD Jones

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A border fence would have no effect at the CODEVI Plant. The entrance is inside Dajabon. It is a little blip of land .
Built with World Bank Money
To take advantage of the really really disgustingly low wages in Haiti... (less than $5 us a day.. although not sure what they are paid there now.. would love any first hand info - it would help me with Haitian Twitter which is blowing up)
What's better, 5 US a day, or nothing a day?

I'd love to see them make more, but I'm glad to see them learning skills, probably have some sort of medical clinic on site, are probably eating something daily and making a little as well.
 
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windeguy

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🙄🥱
Is there a referendum being held in the Dominican Republic on the border fence ❓
My understanding that it is already currently under construction.
Why would there be a referendum in the DR for it?



 

Yourmaninvegas

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Why would there be a referendum in the DR for it?
Two votes for the border wall at my house.
Perhaps you should tell me since you are planning to vote for the "border wall".
🤷‍♂️
Perhaps you meant something other than you wrote.
But I am not one to put words into the mouth of another person.

It is a "intelligent fence"

"according to President Abinader, who has described the project as an "intelligent fence" that will employ radars, drones, movement sensors and cameras. The mega project also calls for 70 watchtowers and 41 access points for patrolling."

 

windeguy

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Perhaps you should tell me since you are planning to vote for the "border wall".
🤷‍♂️
Perhaps you meant something other than you wrote.
But I am not one to put words into the mouth of another person.

It is a "intelligent fence"

"according to President Abinader, who has described the project as an "intelligent fence" that will employ radars, drones, movement sensors and cameras. The mega project also calls for 70 watchtowers and 41 access points for patrolling."

Vote for means want. Perhaps you never heard the expression before, even, by the way, if there is no such vote to actually be taken since the government makes those decisions without a referendum. We can only vote out a government we don't like if we have enough people voting them out.

I meant we both want a border wall, fence, military on the border to stop illegals, etc, etc, etc. Intelligent or otherwise whatever works.

I don't really care what it is or what it is called as long as it works to contain a perpetually failed state.
 

Big

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Vote for means want. Perhaps you never heard the expression before, even, by the way, if there is no such vote to actually be taken since the government makes those decisions without a referendum. We can only vote out a government we don't like if we have enough people voting them out.

I meant we both want a border wall, fence, military on the border to stop illegals, etc, etc, etc. Intelligent or otherwise whatever works.

I don't really care what it is or what it is called as long as it works to contain a perpetually failed state.
I don't think I have met a single solitary Dominican here who is against a wall and stronger immagration enforcement.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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It will be interesting to see if the "intelligent fence" actually works to provide the security that is being sought.

At one million USD a mile, I'm pretty certain it will be spun as a success no matter what the actual results are.

Immigration should be legal and controlled.
Every country should feel free to secure their borders as they see fit.

But a fence (no matter how intelligent) without the proper human security element as support are like tanks in an urban area without infantry.
I have not met a single solitary Dominican during my entire time living here that puts the kind focus, emphasis and obsession on immigration the way those posting in DR1 seem to.
Most of whom do not have a dog in the fight.
Most Dominicans I know express more concern about crime and the rising cost of living.
Illegal immigration is a distant third.
 

windeguy

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The senator from Santiago Rodríguez, Antonio Marte, assured his trial that the “Haitian issue” is “easy to resolve,” but that there is “no value and no one who wants to confront it.” Marte said that from the president, through the businessmen and even the Director of Immigration, he knows how to solve “easily” the immigration problem in Haiti, but they have not wanted to do it.

For the legislator, the solution lies in applying a law that fines up to 30 minimum wages to those who give work to a person who is illegal in the country. “What are the Haitians coming for? To work, who comes to sow here? The Haitians, who come to build here? Haitians, who are in the resorts? The Haitians, and who are in many places? The Haitians. So if that penalty is applied to the owners, to the engineers, then all Haitians will have to migrate back to their country,” Antonio Marte claimed.

Regarding this, he also said that Haitians are paid less money, but that with these savings what they are achieving is leaving the Dominican labor force without work. “Then the issue is easy to solve, don’t give it so much thought. Chile took them out and they were willing to leave because they were not given work. When we catch the homeowners and sanction them, no one is going to want to give them a house and they are going to leave. The problem is that there is no value here and nobody wants to face the issue, nobody wants to face it”, criticized Marte.
Source: Listin Diario

A wall versus enforcing the existing laws?