Commonwealth of Haiti territory of the USA

[Thandie]

yeap,
and even in the campaigns for presidential elections the candidates appear on the AD fotos 5 times 'lighter/whiter' than they are in reality.
a good man for the job shouldn't need to care about his skin.
but the market to taget is a market which 'wishes' to be exactly like shown on such AD's/commercials aso, and what we wish to be is usually what we not are.

Thank goodness for photoshop, because it is alot safer than those popular cancer causing skin bleaching creams sold in the Dominican shops.
One of my Swedish friends Dominican neighbours in POP was rubbing that crap on her 1 year old daughter 'to whitener her up because she was too dark'. My friend and her husband were appalled when she said she wanted her baby to have white skin like them so her life would be easier.

 

[? bient?t]

Is that you Mirador????

Pero, El Chip-Oh! E' que tu ere' loco, muchacho errr diablo?!

Mirador is a product of Exeter College, Oxford. Vacara no le da ni por los tobillos. NOT NOW, not ever!

 

[MikeFisher]

Thank goodness for photoshop, because it is alot safer than those popular cancer causing skin bleaching creams sold in the Dominican shops.
One of my Swedish friends Dominican neighbours in POP was rubbing that crap on her 1 year old daughter 'to whitener her up because she was too dark'. My friend and her husband were appalled when she said she wanted her baby to have white skin like them so her life would be easier.

that's sick,
but as a matter of fact happens, yes.
we had more than once family over here for a visit,
they talk for days/weeks nothing else that they will visit us at the oceanfront for a weekend, and once arrived they sit on the veranda in the shade, not participating in the fun in the water or playing ball with the boys on the beach, heck, some tell their kids after a few minutes to go out that sun b/c it makes them 'prieto'.
so why WTF they are so happy to visit us on the beach??
they could have stayed home on their barrio veranda in the shade, would have saved time and money for the travel, lol.
our boy is naturally more lighter skinned than his mother but looks of course most time of the year much darker, the boy loves his beach and i would divorce when wifey would start to keep him off the beach to not get dark. to not get sick/burned in too much sun is one thing, but for the color of the skin, i give a fu$$.
Mike

 

[NALs]

yes skin colour means nothing in the DR and that is why the majority of
models in high profile ad campaigns in the DR are mostly very light skinned or white looking, even though the typical Dominican and 'target market' does not look that way. Strange isnt it?

In the DR skin color and race are mutually exclusive!

Dominicans are color conscious, but the vast majority don't understand the concept of race. Sure, many use the word race, but they are not using it to mean it as you understand it. Go ahead and try to have any regular Dominican define you the word race. Don't be surprised if among the many absurd definition, what they should be calling nationality will be defined as race too.

As for the ads, all studies have shown that light skin people sell more than dark skin. Even Jos? Francisco Pe?a G?mez got more votes once his skin was lightened in his posters. Of course, skin color and race are two different things. The advertising industry will simply do whatever is needed to sell products/services and that's what all studies have shown. This is true whether its a local Dominican company or foreign companies. Scotiabank in the DR tried using some dark individuals in their advertisements and quite frankly, they are back at using light skin mulattoes and whites, because they were simply not getting results with the dark ones. And Scotiabank is a Canadian company! This is common through out Latin America and even in the US, with advertisement geared towards AA's being composed of relatively lighter individuals.

Don't be like Americans that like to confuse skin color and race and assume they both mean the same thing, they don't.

You can't be racist if you discriminate on color, you have to discriminate on race to be racist.

You can say Dominicans are color struck, but NOT racist.

-NALs

 

[El_Uruguayo]

Pohtayto Pohtahto

 

[NALs]

But the real question is why does skin colour really matter?

Because Dominican Republic is the only mulatto society in the world, and as such, mulatto issues take a national precedence unlike anywhere else in the world. Except, of course, in mulatto minorities in other countries, including the U.S. - despite the complete negation of anything mulatto in those countries.

Do your research on Haiti, Jamaica, Cuba, Colombia, et al; once you hit the mulatto group, the same issues pop up.

As for why?

I used to wonder why mulattoes were plagued by this dilemma and the only conclusion I have reached is that mulattoes are denied identifying as mulattoes everywhere in the world. They are either pushed towards being white or black, being mixed is almost cursed and anyone identifying as mixed is perceived as confused, ridiculous, so on and so forth.

In the US, Jim Crow laws and anti miscegenation laws were passed to control the mulatto population. Mulatto were relegated to the black category in order to keep them in place, since the only group that threatened white society was the mulatto, whose existence was proof that the black/white racial categories and the concept that God didn't want people to mix was simply NOT TRUE.

In the US, what essentially was a mulatto issue has been taught to the entire AA community, but that is because mulattoes were relegated to such level, the level of slaves to keep white society in tact, in a dominant position, and in peace.

In countries where whites were the minority, the opposite is true.

The result: mulattoes all over the world are told to be anything other than mulattoes. This confuses many mulattoes and thus, re-enforces the Tragic Mulatto myth.

Call it the oppression of the mulattoes, and this oppression is perpetrated by whites, blacks, and mulattoes that identify as either white or black (or indio) which is almost all of them.

Here is a good reading regarding how Mulattoes have been controlled. This focuses on the US, but similar things occurred in other countries: The Modern Mulatto

-NALs

 

[El_Uruguayo]

Because Dominican Republic is the only mulatto society in the world, and as such, mulatto issues take a national precedence unlike anywhere else in the world. Except, of course, in mulatto minorities in other countries, including the U.S. - despite the complete negation of anything mulatto in those countries.

Do your research on Haiti, Jamaica, Cuba, Colombia, et al; once you hit the mulatto group, the same issues pop up.

-NALs

Actually you would think that this would be the reason that colour wouldn't be so important. Mulatto is not the minority, but the vast majority, meaning most people have background from both ends of the monochrome spectrum. So what if people are mixed? It should be something to be proud of really - a model for the future, everything mixed into one, but unfurtanetely good is associated with only 1 side of the mix. Its too bad.

But it's not the only country to deny it's heritage, try telling a spaniard that Flamenco has its roots in arabic/north africa, and that their culture is greatly influenced by the moorish occupation. Nah-unh, Flamenco is spanish only! This is one of the reasons the Basques have such national pride - the moores never occupied their territory - they are pure. Pure BS if you ask me.

 

[catcherintherye]

Wow, that's some pretty impressive circular reasoning, NALs.

Who could argue against that pristine logic? Color and race are two completely different things, and we've been confusing the two for hundreds of years. Amazing.

Just to make sure that I'm straight on the facts, allow me to ask something I always wondered about.

My being white doesn't mean I'm stuck with being labeled a Caucasian, right?

I mean if your theory is correct, I could be, well, anything, but let's just say I could be a Haitian, or even an African, just as examples, is that right?

Well, Hot damn, that's great. I like the way you can make things work NALs.

And all this time I have been filling out all those forms incorrectly.

 

[NALs]

My being white doesn't mean I'm stuck with being labeled a Caucasian, right?

I mean if your theory is correct, I could be, well, anything, but let's just say I could be a Haitian, or even an African, just as examples, is that right?

Well, Hot damn, that's great. I like the way you can make things work NALs.

And all this time I have been filling out all those forms incorrectly.

When you, as an American, say you are white that is widely understood to mean part of the Caucasian race. That is typical of a country where the term race takes a biologically precedence.

In the Dominican Republic, a white person is anyone with white skin and if you've been to the DR enough time you will know that there many non-Caucasian people with white skin. That is typical of a country where the term race takes a strictly color precedence. Its not based on biology, its based on appearance.

Hence, when an American hears the word race, the same word means something completely different to a Dominican.

As usual, both have discussions using the same word, but few people take the time to distinguish what both are actually talking about, which are apples and oranges.

Skin color and race are two completely different things.

-NALs

 

[El_Uruguayo]

Good post(#126) NALs, there are definately some valid points there.

In the case of Haiti, from what I understand of its early history. Is that the first revolution was by the mulatos, who were sufficiently educated (as they had more access to education than regular slaves) to undertake a revolution, ousting the French who had them working as slaves. They were succesful in ousting most europeans, and took power. After a few years in power, it seemed that there was resentment towards the mulatos being in power (abusing power) and the blacks ousted the mulatos - effectively leaving no educated ruling class. Since then it's been one power struggle after another, making Haiti what it is today. This is roughly what I remember from my readings. you can correct me if you wish.

Same with Jamaica, the Maroons or mixed, had an advantage over newly arriving slaves in that they had more education. They were succesful in living independantly from slavery, living in the mountains and defending their settlements. There too, there was resentment between blacks and mulatoes, and whites and mulatoes.

But in the DR, with a majority population, you'd think there'd be some sort of brotherhood - which there is, dominicans identify as dominicans, no matter the colour. But often traits are singled out, looked down upon etc. call it classist or racist, whatever, is still odd considering the vast majority share a similar heritage/said traits.

 

[catcherintherye]

NALs, please excuse my persistent dullness, but I just have to clarify one more point.

Are you saying that the US and the Dominican Republic use two completely different methods and sets of criteria for determining and defining race, in official ways, such as census taking, or as a part of other governmental functions?

 

[Naked_Snake]

NALs, please excuse my persistent dullness, but I just have to clarify one more point.

Are you saying that the US and the Dominican Republic use two completely different methods and sets of criteria for determining and defining race, in official ways, such as census taking, or as a part of other governmental functions?

I know that the question was asked to NALS, but yes, the DR and the US use VASTLY different methods and criteria for determining and defining race. The US uses the so called "One Drop Rule", in which race is assigned not so much by appearance, but depending how many white and black ancestors a person have had. If the person in question have had even ONE black ancestor, that is enough for the census taker to classify the person as "black", even despite the fact that the person in question might have a scandinavian appearance. Remember, one drop of "black" blood is enough to make a person "impure", hence, not white.

On the DR, by the contrary, the definition of race is more blurred, leaning for the side of appearance. No matter if the person in question have one of the parents being dark skinned, if he/she "looks white" (as in being light skinned and/or having mediterranean look) then the person in question is white. I'm amazed by the fact that you, being a gringo, are totally unaware of this.

Snake

 

[NALs]

NALs, please excuse my persistent dullness, but I just have to clarify one more point.

Are you saying that the US and the Dominican Republic use two completely different methods and sets of criteria for determining and defining race, in official ways, such as census taking, or as a part of other governmental functions?

Unlike the U.S. government, the Dominican government ceased using race/color as an extra identity measure. Check the recent c?dulas, the old space for color (denoted as piel - skin for color -, not race) has been eliminated and racial stats have not been updated since this new policy took place almost a decade ago and will remain like this supposedly forever.

On the other hand, here is a good example of what I was saying before:

In the US: she's not white.

In the DR: she's white.

Questions:

Is she a Caucasian? Probably not.

Is her SKIN color white? Absolutely.

Is it wrong to call her white when referring to her skin color? No, that's her skin color.

Is it wrong to call her white when referring to her biological race? Yes.

Do Dominicans use race as a biological term or as an appearance/cultural term? As an appearance/cultural term.

Are any of the two definitions wrong? No.

So what are they? Different.

-NALs

 

[ExtremeR]

Of course there is and anyone who denies it is not being honest.
I have too many stories to share .
I have had to question my Dominican friends who claim to be Catholic and deeply religious how they could utter some of the hateful and totally uncalled for things, they so casually say about Haitians. Silence was the answer.

Why is that foreigners is so fixated to compare USA recent past race situation to the DR?? I am going to put it this way, if Haiti were to be a country in good shape and the Haitians that would've come would be tourist with dollars in their pockets, you wouldn't notice any bitterness towards Haitians here, even if they are dark blue. We Dominican's don't care about the color of the skin, but we do care about status and are also very nationalists. Remember the war history DR has had with Haiti.

 

[NALs]

Why is that foreigners is so fixated to compare USA recent past race situation to the DR?? I am going to put it this way, if Haiti were to be a country in good shape and the Haitians that would've come would be tourist with dollars in their pockets, you wouldn't notice any bitterness towards Haitians here, even if they are dark blue. We Dominican's don't care about the color of the skin, but we do care about status and are also very nationalists. Remember the war history DR has had with Haiti.

Only if the person is of your social status or higher. People of lower social status will be rejected based on status and color; more the former than the latter, but never due to race.

On the contrary, a person's color means little if they have a good social standing.

-NALs

 

[Chip]

I have defended the complex relationship the DR has toward Haitians and all things Haitian but also realize and have noted that there is racism here in the DR, but mostly practiced by a minority. However, this minority, atypically on the lighter and affluent type, wield a lot of influence in this culture.

Therefore, I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade, so if some numnut wants to come on this forum and start insinuating Haitians are an inferior race because of whatever reason, or ridicule those who defend Haitians, or make outlandish claims that Dominicans are 88% white, I'm going to tell it like it is - it is racism pure and simple and bullschit on top of that. It is an affront to anybody of any reasonably intelligent person to make statements like these and those who continue to spew such worthless rubbish will just be classified as babbling idiots.

 

[cobraboy]

Unlike the U.S. government, the Dominican government ceased using race/color as an extra identity measure. Check the recent c?dulas, the old space for color (denoted as piel - skin for color -, not race) has been eliminated and racial stats have not been updated since this new policy took place almost a decade ago and will remain like this supposedly forever.

On the other hand, here is a good example of what I was saying before:

In the US: she's not white.

In the DR: she's white.

Questions:

Is she a Caucasian? Probably not.

Is her SKIN color white? Absolutely.

Is it wrong to call her white when referring to her skin color? No, that's her skin color.

Is it wrong to call her white when referring to her biological race? Yes.

Do Dominicans use race as a biological term or as an appearance/cultural term? As an appearance/cultural term.

Are any of the two definitions wrong? No.

So what are they? Different.

-NALs

I dunno, NALs. As a white American with pale skin, if I met her on the streets I'd consider her white. When I hear her speak or learn her name, I'd think Spanish.

 

[NALs]

I have defended the complex relationship the DR has toward Haitians and all things Haitian but also realize and have noted that there is racism here in the DR, but mostly practiced by a minority. However, this minority, atypically on the lighter and affluent type, wield a lot of influence in this culture.

Therefore, I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade, so if some numnut wants to come on this forum and start insinuating Haitians are an inferior race because of whatever reason, or ridicule those who defend Haitians, or make outlandish claims that Dominicans are 88% white, I'm going to tell it like it is - it is racism pure and simple and bullschit on top of that. It is an affront to anybody of any reasonably intelligent person to make statements like these and those who continue to spew such worthless rubbish will just be classified as babbling idiots.

Haitian is as much a race as is American.

Nationality doesn't equal race!

-NALs

 

[NALs]

I dunno, NALs. As a white American with pale skin, if I met her on the streets I'd consider her white. When I hear her speak or learn her name, I'd think Spanish.

And in a more general way, once its known of any African legacy, her identity shifts to black, because in the US its all about biology; or so they say.

Funny how many white Americans are well aware of their Native American heritage and publicly claim to be part Cherokee or Alguaquin or Seminole, or whatever; and yet, such person is still seen as white. So, I guess its only biological when it deals with the African component, perhaps tied to previous notion of Africans being the most inferior people, hence any drop of African blood taints otherwise superior people.

At least that's what seems to be the case.

-NALs

 

[Vacara]

Also, give me an example of 'stupidities disguised as subtleties'.
And get off my case - you post multiple times, sniping at me without commenting on the substance of my posts.
People are trying to have a debate here - not a competition.

The question was about Haiti, the US, sovereignty etc...

Monumental task what you're asking, it would be easier to read the entire collection of books in the old Library of Alexandria , although it was burned down by the Muslim during its conquer war in Egypt - unlike your posts full of substance- at least we know it was there.