Commonwealth of Haiti territory of the USA

[? bient?t]

(My grandma is a white jew, my dad has Chinese blood, and I most likey have other ethnic mixes in my background, but basically I am black. )

Would you like to have Dominican in you?

 

[Thandie]

Would you like to have Dominican in you?

My sweet Bientot,

Are you Domincian? As I said before Domincian men generally are not my type...but you crack me up and I love your writing style..... I might just have to make an exception for you. lol

 

[Vacara]

NALs, If you would please reread my last post. I think I was clear as water that I was referring to your statement(s), past and present, and not you as an individual.

However, statements often reflect an individual's personae, and it is difficult to ignore the pattern of your statements over time.

I admit I have a difficult time responding to the type of outlandish posts you tend to make, and I'm sure there is a much more effective approach I should take.

I also readily admit that I do not know you as a person, and I am forced to make certain judgments based on nothing more then the words you use in your posts. I am aware that is a very incomplete picture of who you are.

I further admit that when I read some of your outlandish claims, like the one I was referring to earlier, I sometimes react emotionally. For that I apologize, and I will attempt to limit my posts to point-for-point rebuttals in the future, although I know I will be sorely tempted at times.

There's a God!!!!!

 

[Vacara]

Ok, too many liong winded posts to disect, quote etc. So I'll hit a general theme. That of dominicans seeing "colour" and not race. The fact that you (NALs) will say that dominicans will not discriminate someone based on their race, but rather colour is false. Discrimination based on colour is the same as race, where does one get their colour? Their racial make up. 2 people of equal racial make up can have very different appearances, very light or very dark, or anywhere in between. It seems that light skin deny the mix, the dark skinned have no choice but to claim the mix, as if having "white" blood made them better. It's no different than the US example you give, except "white looking" consider themselves as part of a differnt group than the non-white looking - again genetics could be made of equal parts of african and euro heritage, making them essentially equal. Why is it that light skin mixed people consider thesmelves white? The answer is simple, they percieve white to be better than the other options.

Nals made this point crystal clear, Dominicans in general can't differentiate bet. a person of white race and a person of white color. The way Nals lay out his case is impossible to miss, so you either don't have the capability to do so or you are completely oblivious to Dominican reality, it's the latter is the case please, hush and listen.

As for Vacara, with a month on the board, under 100 posts, making claims to peoples credibility. I'd wager you were banned from this board and cannot post under your old user name. So much for credibility there. But if you are trying to explain that in DR "light skin mulato is considered white" or that 89% of the population is light/white, I am very aware of how things are seen in DR, that is what this whole debate has turned into. The fact is, that most here are arguing that your average dominican perception on race, heritage, etc. is distorted, making "in DR XXX is considered XXX" irrelevant. We know how things are considered, perception from several other countries, tells us there is something distorted here in this regard, it's odd.

Race to me is not important, but it's obvious that it is very important to many dominicans, if it weren't why would you be so quick to point out that 89% of dominicans are light skinned/white, when it obviously isn't the case??

If you show me where did I say light skin=white I'll pack my aggressive, uninformed, newbie, sniper personality and leave the board to the "Hyenas", otherwise please stop laughing, Nals is talking!!

 

[Vacara]

You can say that again:

MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans

That article is so full of bs could has been written by Muslims escolars.

Black denial​

Nearly all Dominican women straighten their hair, which experts say is a direct result of a historical learned rejection of all things black

Experts?, what experts says that?, every time somebody cite an experts without specifying it should raise a red flag.

Not that Matos has anything against her natural curls, even though Dominicans call that pelo malo -- bad hair.

African-American call that type of hair "nappy", and unlike "pelo malo" "nappy hair" has a strong racial meaning and is a racial epithet, but still African-Americans insist on its use.

And to many in the Dominican Republic, to look pretty is to look less black

Blatant lie, we call our loved one "morenito/a, negrito/a", our language is full of words that aggrandize the black color; "mira esa morena tan bella, mira que negrito que 'ta pesa'o".

Dominican hairdressers are internationally known for the best hair-straightening techniques.

The author is lying by omission, Dominicans hairdressers are internationally known because they are skillful and sharp and have developed a variety of techniques to deal with the fact that our country is surrounded by salty water, which is fatal for women's hair.

Using the word Indian to describe dark-skinned people is an attempt to distance Dominicans from any African roots, Albert and other experts said. She noted that it's not even historically accurate: The country's Taino Indians were virtually annihilated in the 1500s, shortly after Spanish colonizers arrived.

Don't blame that on racism, blame it on desperation by the white Dominican elite who couldn't find another way to get the black/mulatto population to fight the Haitians who had already killed all the frenchies in Haiti, what were they suppose to do?, not lie and wait for the machete wielding Dessalines to kill them all?

Dictator Rafael Trujillo, who ruled from 1930 to 1961, strongly promoted anti-Haitian sentiments, and is blamed for creating the many racial categories that avoided the use of the word "black."

This is so inaccurate it is appalling!, again the author lay blame without specification, who blame Trujillo for that?, this writer didn't do any research and based this mockery on scuttlebutt and hearsay information, the person who created and developed this racial term was Manuel De Jesus Galvan in the novel "Enriquillo", almost one hundreds years before Trujillo would use it. He later started spreading his concept through lectures and small plays. Trujillo indeed took this idea to unimaginable heights, through the use of radio, tv, newspaper, magazines and direct propaganda in schools. He went as far as to publish genetics and blood studies to give it some sort of scientific support to this Indian heritage idea but he did not -like that writer said- create that concept.

Shame on the author of that libel, vituperation for not doing his homework like honest writers do, shame on the poster who posted this degradation with the intent to push his malicious agenda and shame on Catcherintherye for not naming him "a serious poster" yet.

 

[Thandie]

That article is so full of bs could has been written by Muslims escolars.
..............
Shame on the author of that libel, vituperation for not doing his homework like honest writers do, shame on the poster who posted this degradation with the intent to push his malicious agenda and shame on Catcherintherye for not naming him "a serious poster" yet.

Wow! Did you not read the black Dominican mans statement and his real life accounts and his personal opinion in this article, that are similar to many others who have posted on this board (so its not so difficult to believe)? Can everyone be lying? Do you think there is some grand conspiracy theory where people from all over the world are against and out to destroy the DR with these lies? To serve what purpose? Is this Dominicans mans voice and others not valid to you because it goes against what you so desperately want to believe in?

You remind me of those parents who have a child who has misbehaved in school and is called in to speak to the principal about their kids obvious and undeniable, unacceptable and self destuctive behaviour.
But that parent is unwilling to believe or admit that their child, that they love, has done anything wrong and rightfully deserves a 'pow pow' to the bum and some behaviour modification for their own benefit.
But they so desperately want to beleive their child is a 'perfect little angel', and everyone else should think that too, because they beleive their kid is a direct reflection of themselves. If little Johnny does something wrong that reflects badly on them. Their fragile little egos are so easily bruised, so they cant swallow the truth and face reality!

So what do they do? They will deny, try to explain away, never admit thier child is in the wrong (its always someone elses fault) or Johnnys behaviour IS really disruptive and destructive to themselves and those around them, and needs to change quickly.
And you cant change what you dont acknowledge!
The PROBLEM is these parents view any constructive criticism against their kid, and the basic ugly truth as a 'personal attack' against themselves, get angry and do not act in the best interest of their child to help change the negative, self destructive behaviour.....It only gets worse and causes more pain and damage for this very kid that they love and truly want the best for. But because of their distorted thinking, by making the issue personal, when it is not, they are blinded by their emotions and logic is suspended...
The kid never properly matures or learns the difference between right and wrong or to take personal responisbilty in life! Recipe for disaster! The parent is more interested in saving face and 'being right' than doing what is right.

Then 5 years later they are dealing with a deliquent and out of control BIG Johnny and dont understand why they are being called into the police station to pick up their 'perfect little criminal'. There is a big disconnect from the reality. No real awareness. Recipe for disaster.

Vacara after reading your post I just realized something about you (and some other posters/people who share your thought process), when it comes to this subject, there is such a big DISCONNECT there both logically and emotionally. I am afraid you will never get it! Sad.
Your extreme, twisted and blindling nationalist pride and love for your country (your kid), does not allow you to see, and admit to, the genuine problems and the root reasons, that need to be changed before proper development and growth will occur for a country that so desperately needs it....

A strong, peaceful and prosperous nation cannot be built on the backs of people who dont have a strong sense of self and good esteem, because since they were a baby....they have been taught to think that they were BORN not good enough (or others are born superior/better and therefore are automatically entitled to basic human rights and privledges that the 'others' are not) because they were unluckily born with the wrong or inferior hair or skin, etc.

 

[NALs]

So I'll hit a general theme. That of dominicans seeing "colour" and not race. The fact that you (NALs) will say that dominicans will not discriminate someone based on their race, but rather colour is false. Discrimination based on colour is the same as race, where does one get their colour? Their racial make up. 2 people of equal racial make up can have very different appearances, very light or very dark, or anywhere in between.

I think you contradicted yourself and basically, proved what I've been saying here.

Let me put it this way, if two people of equal racial make up can have very different appearances, and many Dominicans discriminate on appearance; then how is it possible for color discrimination to be racial as well?

How is it possible for race to be an actual factor when the concept of race as is universally understood simply doesn't exist in the Dominican psyche?

Racial discrimination can often take the place of color discrimination, BUT color discrimination and racial discrimination can be mutually exclusive and in the DR the latter is true.

In order for racial discrimination to take place, first the person discriminating has to belong to the perceived superior race, and second all individuals of a particular race, regardless of color, will be equally discriminated against and rejected.

That is something that rarely happens in the DR, to a degree that its almost non-existent. What does happen constantly is discrimination on color and class, and the bigger weight falls on class because that can actually change the way a person is seen, literally.

It seems that light skin deny the mix, the dark skinned have no choice but to claim the mix, as if having "white" blood made them better.

I don't think the light skin deny the mix, they simply reject being called something they are not, with respect to their color.

How many types have you see light skin Dominicans disown their darker skin family members?

I personally have never seen such thing, at least not due to their skin color.

Have you ever been invited by a light skin Dominican to a family reunion or party?

Have you noticed how they will A) invite their dark skin family members, B) introduce you to their dark skin family members with as much enthusiasm as they introduced you to their lighter ones, and C) everyone pretty much gets along just fine?

A light skin person who denies their mix is one who also disown those who will bring to light their reality of being mixed.

Among Dominicans this type of reaction doesn't happen, mostly because when Dominican refer to color, they actually mean color. Race is a foreign concept that has not permeated much of Dominican society.

And as I said before, while the word race is often used among Dominicans, its meaning can shift from mere skin color to nationality, but it hardly ever means race as is understood in many other countries.

Why is it that light skin mixed people consider thesmelves white? The answer is simple, they percieve white to be better than the other options.

Perhaps a few might consider white to be better than the other option, but in most cases it has to do with their color being light enough to be white.

You will never see a dark skin Dominican claim to be white. Many do call themselves black (or Moreno) and others indios (or Mulatto), but never white.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

Her father was a black Venezuelan. She looks more white (except for her extra curly hair) but the difference is she does not deny her white or black heritage, she proudly embraces both. Her siblings have more of her dads features than she does, they look more black.
She is 'now' labelled biracial not exclusively black/African American by many (Isnt biracial on the US census now?).

Biracial is still a relatively new and scarcely used word. She is still labeled by most people as Black/African American. Her Hispanic connection is often denied, or the correct way to put it would be discretely 'forgotten.'

IMO she is not considered Hispanic by the latino community.
Never have seen her honoured at latin award shows like the Latin Grammys or in latin magazines and radio stations.

In order for something like that to occur, the artist has to publish something in Spanish.

Mariah (or Cameron D?az) have never done anything in Spanish, so why would they be honoured in Latin Award shows or the Latin Grammys, magazines, radio stations, so on and so forth?

-NALs

 

[NALs]

I used that Ethopian as an example because I have seen her in an interview talking about her experience in the modeling world as a BLACK model. She does not deny her 'blackness'....just like alot of my light skinned Ethopian and east African friends who all affectionately call me 'Sister'....there is a big East African community in Toronto. My Jamaican friends and family, many who are rastafarian have travelled to Ethiopia (one who lives there) have talked about their experience...
Nothing but love and acceptance by dark and light Ethiopians alike!
The older, less travelled generation, like any society has these distorted views deeply ingrained and they are the slowest to change , while with the younger generation like this model , thankfully those views are changing and rapidly.
This is what you would hope for. With education and information there is growth and awareness and old destructive divisive ideas and beliefs adapt and change.

The same could be said of many Dominicans too, but a few anecdotal evidence is simply no substitute for what occurs in a society overall.

It seems that you only have anecdotal evidence of Dominicans who 'deny' their African heritage, but not of those who don't 'deny' that; while your anecdotal evidence of the rest of the world is of people who 'embrace' their African heritage and nothing opposite.

There are plenty of Dominicans who don't 'deny' their African heritage, some do it by applying the One Drop Rule on themselves while others do it by calling themselves mulattoes/biracial/so on and so forth; rather than indio or something else. And yes, they do exist, even though you apparently haven't met any.

But, anecdotal evidence is not really appropriate when explaining certain aspects of a society as a whole, and in Ethiopia skin color is a very big deal, among older and younger generations; a few who don't fall in that categories not withstanding.

Of course many people all over Africa are mixed. Africans have moved throughout the entire continent for ever. Of course Ethiopia like many countries around the world, throughout history have been conquered and colonized by Europeans and mixing happened often by force. From India to where skin lightening creams are a big business to the Caribbean, etc.
(My grandma is a white jew, my dad has Chinese blood, and I most likey have other ethnic mixes in my background, but basically I am black. )
And of course in all of these countries and communities you see ridiculous in fighting based on race and colour similar to what you find in the DR! Any guesses why? Divide and conquer.

Well, now it makes even more sense why so many Dominicans considered you to be Dominican, you're mixed and it probably shows! In all the other threads when you said you were black, the automatic image of a dark skin full fledge woman of African ancestry came to mind; which in a way is not what the typical Dominican woman resembles. Now I can see why you were considered Dominican, you're mixed even though you call yourself black.

I just find it interesting, especially with the Ethiopian example, how you depend heavily on anecdotal evidence to reach your conclusions about specific group of people. Somehow Ethiopians are 'advancing' because the one's you know one-drop themselves; but Dominicans are not because you didn't met those who do.

This is very interesting.

-NALs

 

[Thandie]

Biracial is still a relatively new and scarcely used word. She is still labeled by most people as Black/African American. Her Hispanic connection is often denied, or the correct way to put it would be discretely 'forgotten.'


In order for something like that to occur, the artist has to publish something in Spanish.

Mariah (or Cameron D?az) have never done anything in Spanish, so why would they be honoured in Latin Award shows or the Latin Grammys, magazines, radio stations, so on and so forth?

-NALs

Mixed and biracial IMO are very commonly used nowadays.

No she is not labelled as black/AA, but biracial/mixed. You are very incorrect about that. Her black husband recently called her exclusively AA in his rebuttal to Eminem, when he had insulted her. And many people from different races laughed at him.
I am a huge Mariah fan, and know alot about her and keep up about info about her in the media. When she did a song with the rapper ODB (and other R&B and black rap artists) years ago....
she had to fight her record company Sony, to allow her to do the colab, because they thought it would tarnish her image and she would loose her white fans because they would think she was going to urban. She started her career doing ballads like Celine Dion. Now her music is more mixed and urban.

And she does not speak Spanish and was not raised in the Latin culture so how does she relate to that part of her heritage? I have never heard latin people/community who know her dad was born in Venezuela (which is widely known to her fans) classify her as latin, even though you said they do if they are aware of it.

 

[Thandie]

There are plenty of Dominicans who don't 'deny' their African heritage, some do it by applying the One Drop Rule on themselves while others do it by calling themselves mulattoes/biracial/so on and so forth; rather than indio or something else. And yes, they do exist, even though you apparently haven't met any.

Well, now it makes even more sense why so many Dominicans considered you to be Dominican, you're mixed and it probably shows! In all the other threads when you said you were black, the automatic image of a dark skin full fledge woman of African ancestry came to mind; which in a way is not what the typical Dominican woman resembles. Now I can see why you were considered Dominican, you're mixed even though you call yourself black.

I just find it interesting, especially with the Ethiopian example, how you depend heavily on anecdotal evidence to reach your conclusions about specific group of people. Somehow Ethiopians are 'advancing' because the one's you know one-drop themselves; but Dominicans are not because you didn't met those who do.

This is very interesting.

-NALs

I have never met a Dominican who looks black or obviously has some African blood call themselves black or admits to any African ancestry, but I have heard of a few. Of course there are Dominicans like the man in the article Beintot posted who do. But those are the exceptions and not the rule IMO.

I look more black than anything else, I dont look obviously mixed, as in very European features or very straight/wavy hair. Baby I am black and proud!
And that is the funny thing when every Dominican shockingly said but how do you look like us? ...even though some were 5 shades darker than me, go figure LOL
And I would ask is Dominican a race? There are soooo many different shades and looks.
But Nals most black people living in USA, Carribean have mixed blood to varying degrees. They did a show and did genetic testing on a bunch of AA celebrities (Oprah, TD Jakes, Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi, Chris Tucker etc.). They were mixed with everything except the kitchen sink, even though it might not have been obvious LOL

From a light skinned Beyonce and Venessa Williams to a dark skinned Tyson Beckford who is part Chinese. Who the hell is pure anything anymore. LOL
Why do you think many white supremists are worried about genetic testing. lol Cause many people passed and dipped their coffee in milk LOL.

Most people dont know that Bob Marley is half white, but he looks more black and proudly identified as such but did not deny or hate his white blood.

I am Janet Jackson complexion, have a broad nose, an enviable bum straight from the motherland and kinky hair that I usually straighten. No denying I am black. But strangley enough, like other black people have said on this board,
Dominicans somehow still think I look like them. Go figure.

And from my experience unfortunately darker skinned people all over the world need to advance and evolve more mentally in this area.
I have tied to educate some of my own Jamaican family members when the ignorant older ones make those DEEPLY ingrained comments about good/bad hair, etc. My sisters grandmother is a dark skinned Guyanese Indian and when my baby sister was born she was telling my mother to 'mold' her nose, by frequently pinching it to make it more straight, because it was too broad or too black looking? She did that to her kids and saw nothing wrong with it. WTH type of messed up thought process is that? And what does that do to a childs psyche? To want to inflict discomfort/pain to a beautiful newborn baby to make its nose more white looking? Where do you think that comes from?
My mother told her there was nothing wrong with her babies African nose and if she caught her pinching her newborn there would be trouble. LOL

Thank God my mom matured and became more informed/educated and questioned certain things she was taught... like every new generation should to improve and evolve. If something is not positive and uplifts and serves you why keep on doing it?
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.
She was concious and aware and did not pass on to us, the ignorant beliefs she grew up hearing and was raised with. Bob Marley did a lot of shedding light on and raising social consciousness about this in JA. And that is why all of her kids have a high self esteem.

As Marley said "We need to free our minds form mental slavery".
It is plain stupid, ridiculous, has a negative impact on brown/black peoples psyche and self esteem, destructive and divisive and IMO one of the roots of our problems (i.e. poverty, broken families, etc)

I am not saying exclusively this is a Dominican problem...but it is a bigger problem in the DR/with Dominicans then some other places/groups I have been exposed to. Just stating my personal experiences.

 

[El_Uruguayo]

I will concede a few points to you NALs, with regard to familly with variation - it is true they will not shun familly members who are darker or lighter.

Basically, my prime example from personal experience is pointing out an attractive black female to a Dominican - many times (if not most) they will say "she's not pretty", the reason being "she is black". And I'm not talking average looking girls, I'm talkin smokin hot hotties. It's annecdotal, but has happened on enough instances that I believe its common practice. You can say that it's, whats the word, colourism? But really it amounts to a form of racism, skin colour is the most obvious manifestation of race, if black skin is unattractive, black people are unattractive - it's as simple as that. Now in the DR's case, with it's big mix, it can be difficult to discern at what point someone is black - which is why there are so many varying degrees of indio, canela, cafe con leche ect. In mere colour terms, someone who is undeniably black will be subjicated to prejudice - I think it is safe to say that this is racism. Those who are not undeniably black (i.e their "blackness" is deniable), will deny it.

It is not important for me to label someone by their race or colour, I judge people on an individual basis, I don't go around asking people what race they are from, or what race they consider themselves to be. But I must say i find it very trivial how a people of mixed background will shun one of their mix's components when it's manifested in a "purer" or more obvious form.

 

[Lambada]

Can I share an observation? I have noticed that some Afro-Americans visiting here and for whom their 'blackness' is their primary identity (born of the long struggles for justice in the US) are somewhat bewildered by the fact that Dominicans do not identify in the same way. I have also noticed that they think this denotes some maladaptive conditioning of Dominicans which needs corrective action! As a white person myself, I think such attempts at 'corrective action' would be as doomed as me doing the colonialist stuff i.e. 'I'm white, I know best'.

I have two questions: 1) is there any significance to this debate of the fact that the DR became independent of Haitian rule before it gained independence from Spain? and 2) how significant in this debate are works like La Realidad Dominicana by Balaguer, which effectively rewrote the history of Haitian-Dominican relations and does it still have an impact today?

 

[cobraboy]

Can I share an observation? I have noticed that some Afro-Americans visiting here and for whom their 'blackness' is their primary identity (born of the long struggles for justice in the US) are somewhat bewildered by the fact that Dominicans do not identify in the same way. I have also noticed that they think this denotes some maladaptive conditioning of Dominicans which needs corrective action! As a white person myself, I think such attempts at 'corrective action' would be as doomed as me doing the colonialist stuff i.e. 'I'm white, I know best'.

Well stated.

 

[ExtremeR]

Can I share an observation? I have noticed that some Afro-Americans visiting here and for whom their 'blackness' is their primary identity (born of the long struggles for justice in the US) are somewhat bewildered by the fact that Dominicans do not identify in the same way. I have also noticed that they think this denotes some maladaptive conditioning of Dominicans which needs corrective action! As a white person myself, I think such attempts at 'corrective action' would be as doomed as me doing the colonialist stuff i.e. 'I'm white, I know best'.

I have two questions: 1) is there any significance to this debate of the fact that the DR became independent of Haitian rule before it gained independence from Spain? and 2) how significant in this debate are works like La Realidad Dominicana by Balaguer, which effectively rewrote the history of Haitian-Dominican relations and does it still have an impact today?

Ding Ding Ding, Bingo, we have a winner. Good post

 

[? bient?t]

That article is so full of bs could has been written by Muslims escolars.


Shame on the author of that libel, vituperation for not doing his homework like honest writers do, shame on the poster who posted this degradation with the intent to push his malicious agenda and shame on Catcherintherye for not naming him "a serious poster" yet.

Dear Vacara,

Shame on me for not acting like the "typical" Dominican, anunciando to los siete vientos a pecho abierto, "Hey, I'm Dominican by choice, and the rest is monte y culebra." Unlike you and your cohorts, I didn't have a choice.

Now, as far as the full-of-bs part and Muslim scholars: I take it you do not understand the term 'scholarship.'

Stick to the presence and/or absence of voltages and ground and stuff.

 

[? bient?t]

My sweet Bientot,

Are you Domincian? As I said before Domincian men generally are not my type...but you crack me up and I love your writing style..... I might just have to make an exception for you. lol

Am I Dominican? Well, yes, but the question is, What type of Dominican am I?

 

[Chip]

I would like to comment that I see Thandie's point of view but I can't say that I agree with her completely. Certainly there is racism apparent in the DR (ref. Nals and Vacara's post) but it is not to the level that it may appear at first glance.

While Nals and Vacara may agree with me about some aspects of the level of racism, however, I reject and have to unfortunately ignore a lot of what their commentary is for their obvious taint of racism.

Ironically, apparently these two can't see that their extended hollow diatribes and complete ignorance of standard English language protocol of addressing challenges to statements only further entrenches by far the majority's view of their opinions here on DR1 that they are a few cards short of a full deck.

I have seen this phenomenon before here on DR1 by other Dominicans such as Mirador and Pichardo and used to attribute this to the fact that they have become so enamored with speaking in English that content and reason are not important because they had already reached nirvana by being able to communicate in English in the first place. However, after living here more than four years know I understand this is more widespread than I originally thought. Basically, it works that here dominating status(even self perceived), emphasis or emotion are enough to carry an argument and those who dissent in opinion are not expected to challenge arguments or even permitted the decency of clarification. Furthermore, any type of nonsensical, hollow arguments can be pilfered without fear of repercussion or even a vigorous debate providing the claimant has the required dominant position. I personally have encountered this numerous times as a participant in active debates and also witnessed this passively on many other occasions.

Bottom line is these people don't get it and they never will, it is too culturally entrenched. For them to concede any point is considered anathema and a loss of face. Unfortunately for them, they effect the exact opposite of what they desire, to defend the DR. My words to them would be that they are at best being ignored and at worst causing otherwise neutral observers of these debates to side with the opposite side because, as is common in English language debates, once you lose credibility all that is left is a sinking ship. In other words, if you really love the patria make the changes to be able to intelligently discourse or at the very least don't muddy the water with dribble - thanks.

 

[? bient?t]

Ironically, apparently these two can't see that their extended hollow diatribes and complete ignorance of standard English language protocol of addressing challenges to statements only further entrenches by far the majority's view of their opinions here on DR1 that they are a few cards short of a full deck.

English is not the problem.

NALs's posts are full of contradictions: in one he talks about the one-drop rule for blacks in the US, yet in another post implies that Obama should not be considered black because his mother was white. And I'm being generous to NALs, since at times he makes valid points.

And Vacara's Dominican pride impedes his reading comprehension, then he posts nonsensical stuff, like his take on Muslim scholars, which I didn't get: did he mean scholars who are Muslims or Islamic faith scholars? Just kidding, I know what he meant, but he doesn't... he just thinks he does.

 

[Vacara]

Are you kidding me? Hahaha. You have obviousoly have never been to Cuba recently and know very little of Cuba in the last 50 years. Not denying there is still some racism in Cuba but nothing like what I have seen in the DR. Castro has had close and affectionate relationships with many African presidents. Sent Cuban troops to fight in Africa, Angola.

So this is how -in you opinion- you establish close and affectionate relationships among countries and fight racism; sending thousands of Cubans troops, thousands of miles away to whack people to support a marxist-Lenninist government that later would whack even more people?, So I guess when South African invaded Angola they were actually fighting for the civil rights of Angolan?, gee!, one learn things in this forum. How do you call that Thandie?, affection "Raftafarian Way"?.

Talks highly of the black people who were so nice to him in Santiago during the revolution. Made sure there was no discrimination based on skin colour in terms of access to education. I know many black Cuban doctors and professionals in Cuba. Stayed in Harlem when he visted NY and pubically embraced the black community there.

Fidel can say all the nice things in this world and still black people (specially of Haitian lineage) are at the bottom of the social/economic ladder in Cuba, black people can't seat at hotels, bar or restaurant in Havana and others Cuban tourist centers without being "invited" to produce id's and if confirmed they are not foreigners they'll be politely asked to "get the hell out".

David Dukes says nice things too; in his opinion he is a " civil rights activist", now would you have a picture of him in your living room?

Very telling that you mention as proof of how minimal Cuban racism is compared to Dominican's the fact that there's no color discrimination for education in Cuba, now tell me; do you see race/color discrimination affecting people's access to education in DR?, cuz I don't!

Afro-Cuban music bands are plenty and well respected and accepted in the country. Proudly singing in ancient Yoruba language in some of their songs. Practicing African based religions like Santeria is still very popular in Cuba and promoted. Castro proudly admits to practicing Santeria to. You cant walk 2 feet without seeing men and women dressed in full white or people wearing the colourful Santeria beads. Many houses have mini altars to their Santeria gods in plain view in their living rooms and routinely present offerings. African cultural influence in Cuba is strong, respected and not denied.

We have music of African origin in DR, we have santeria and altars in many houses, Dominicans forums on internet are stuffed with petition and thanks to "Pomba Gira"; a female deity of African/Brazilian origin, so what exactly is your point?.

Fidel Castro practicing santeria isn't proof of respect for religions and practices of African origin, he is white to begin with and should not be promoting stupidity among his constituency, perhaps that's how he is running Cuba's economy into the ditch.

I have many African friends who have travelled to Cuba and love it, felt so at home and never have experienced any racism.

Good point, so because your -not Cubans- friends are allowed to spend their money unmolested (dollars that Cuba so badly need) means there's no racism in Cuba.

I have plenty of black friends that have been in DR and were never discriminated against, what does that tell you Thandie?

But that is the difference between the DR and Cuba in this area, the people of Haitian decent mainly in Santiago de Cuba are NOT excluded from their nationality, their birthright and called Haitian.

Thandie you are either not being honest or you don't have a clue, you can't compare Cuba's immigration problem to Dominican's. Starting in late 1920's until 1935 Cubans swiftly and decidable dealt with the Haitian problem sending 100,000 of them (whether born or not in Cuba) back to Haiti (that's what Dominicans should have done long ago). Back in Cuba a small number of Haitians remained in remote regions, today they amount to about 400,000 people. In DR we have 2,000,000 illegal Haitians and thousands cross the border every month.

Now can you explain to me in legal terms why Dominicans should give the sons of Haitians born in DR Dominican citizenship?, there's not "jus solis" for people staying there on a temporary basis and every expert I've seen agree that the constitution of DR does not grant them that privilege. Are you a lawyer Thandie?, do you know more than Dominicans about our constitution?. Other than by pure compassion bs tell me why do you think they have that right.

THEY ARE RIGHTFULLY CALLED AND ACCEPTED AS CUBAN! They were born and raised in Cuba and their family of many generations too, there has been so much mixing people are not concerned with dissecting what percentage of Haitian ancestory someone has. Why because it is not generally viewed as a negative.
And social ladder in Cuba? The majority of Cubans are poor...dark and light, with the exception of the elect few.

Called and accepted as Cuban but still at the bottom of the economic/social ladder. Weird concept of your about a racism free society, at least it teaches us that having a white dictator for 50 years is not the way to fight racism.

Cuba is a cultural travellers gem because they proudly and beautifully display all aspects of Cuban culture, even the part that is obviously influenced by Haiti. Carnival in Santiago de Cuba is amazing! The Haitian, African, European, Chinese cultural influences make it unique and beautiful!

All cultural influences are proudly display in DR with the exception of African/Haitian. When Dessalines burned down the towns of Santiago and Moca, killing all its dwellers and later dancing the whole night in a party supplied with the loot from those brave acts he planted a seed of division and mistrust that is bound to last for many centuries, is human nature to recall those events.

It offends me a great deal when I see people (only foreigners) to quickly dismiss those events as "too distant in the past" to matter today, they should know better.

It also offend me how quick are foreigners to demand that Dominicans commit suicide as a nation and incorporate millions of people that are racially and culturally different. If you want to know how much that hurts Thandie let me give you a hint; merengue was developed as a tool to fight the Haitian domination of 1822/44.