Crime and violence in DR, how will it stop?

[Larry]

When I present an idea, I present the idea in its most roughest and purest form. I know the first round an idea is presented, it will not be accepted completely. From there, we move to modify it so that it becomes a bit more tolerable.



If you or anybody want to change my way of thinking, you are going to have to do it in a more rational manner. Insulting will only yield insults from my part, but no change in ideology.

So, how do you "modify" putting innocent people in jail for two months so that it becomes "a bit more tolerable" as you say?

Your ideas are completely off the wall. I don't care if I change your way of thinking. In fact, I am certain I will not. You are a complete nut.


Larry

 

[FuegoAzul21]

get rid of the haitians , they re the biggest criminals of all

 

[FuegoAzul21]

lol , how many times u gonna hear that on these threads

 

[gringo in dr]

Please, re-read my posts without the judgement of me being "dictatorial" as many folks put it here. Read it in a very unbiased fashion and you'll notice what I am saying.

Also, keep in mind. When I present an idea, I present the idea in its most roughest and purest form. I know the first round an idea is presented, it will not be accepted completely. From there, we move to modify it so that it becomes a bit more tolerable.

This strategy of presenting ideas is called "thinking". I want much of my ideas to be in place, but I know many sections of my idea won't make it. I'm always happy to see at least a part of my ideas on the "final copy" prior to mass acceptance.

Trust me, I don't post things for the hell of it. I post to perfect my ideas, but if I continuously get people who use my words to implement their wrong belief of what I am saying, then how can we perfect this idea. And btw, insulting never yields the result you want, it only creates tension which leads the person with the most influence in authority to impose an idea on society that maybe he/she did not fully agreed with, but because it was contested through insults, the full idea would be implemented (as a way to "let the person whose in charge").

If you or anybody want to change my way of thinking, you are going to have to do it in a more rational manner. Insulting will only yield insults from my part, but no change in ideology.

But really, re-read my posts. I think you are generalizing my idea a bit too much and I think you are focusing on the inevitable loop holes rather than the overall effect it will have on the population. Always keep in mind that the masses of any country collectively are weak minded people. That is why they need leaders to lead them, instead of themselves making the right decisions, which collectively would result in a better society.

Anybody aspiring to be a big influence or to be a leader understands that very well. Whenever I enter a room and I speak my opinion in any matter, most people automatically quiet down and listen. They might not agree with what I say, but because they listened, what I say will have an impact on them. Big or small, the impact will be there. Why do they listen? Because they are willing to see what else is "out there" in terms of ideas. If the person who reveals a new idea seems respectable, mentally stronger, and sure of him/herself, the crowd will follow.

People always follow people who are stronger than themselves. Those who lead are generally stronger (mentally) or perceived to be stronger than those who follow. Thus, my comment on the masses of any country being collectively weak minded. Always keep that in mind, especially when trying to influence me on any matter.

Now I know you are absolutely crazy. First you have proclaimed in other posts that you are always correct in predicting the future. Now you want to kill everyone convicted of a crime. The people that are found innocent should be locked up for a couple of months any ways so they can see how bad it is.

If the law worked that way here, none of us would be here. Besides that, the DR would be held on human rights violations. The armed forces here wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in hell against the UN and war happy Bush. Bush has already spent 200 billion dollars on the war in Iraq. Another billion spent stomping on the DR will hardly be noticed.

 

[Cleef]

Military Expenditures

I'd always wondered why a country so far removed from threat, or having enemies - or something that another country would invade for, would require such a well-healed military with guns, gunships, helicopters and the rest - like more generals than shade to cover them.

Then it's learned that they are the main conveyance of people smuggling. I wonder who the (bald) head of the operation was? There is so little we actually know about this, time will tell.

As CC said, when everything else is corrupt, especially the political process, it's amazing that it's taken the police this long to catch up. Fools. They see an opportunity like turnover in the leadership of the country as their calling to fetch all the goodies they've been protecting, why did they wait? At least the ones who took the cars were a little more daring, give them some credit. Do onto others.......before it gets done on to you!

I didn't drive often while there, but when I did, I never stopped for a cop - never (unrleated to my habit of doing the same in High School). In the DR it was the lesser of two evils; a chase vs. whoknowswhat.

Tint the windows black and save the brakes.

When I was robbed in Mirador del Sur I certainly didn't go to the police station in the park and wake them up. The horror!

When will it all stop? It's very very simple.

When real education begins. You're not going to teach a kid who's been washing windshields and playing in traffic since he could walk, the difference between right and wrong. He's not going to retire from the streets and get a job at the bank or Codetel.

Crime for them is a win-win.

When you have nothing to lose, there is no alternative, except becoming a cop or go into the military. At least there you can get a uniform and bullets to rob people with.

 

[Argo]

Nal0whs is right

Who said you would spend two month in prison? I mean, you have to be accused of a crime first and if found guilty you get what you deserve, but if found innocent then you get two months.

Its not like innocent people are going to be randomly picked up from the street and thrown in jail. It will all go through due process.

However, that's the point. Innocent people who get caught in the mambo limbo of the police don't want to go to jail. They will make it very clear how bad a jail is once they experience it a bit. The ENTIRE PURPOSE is so they can warn the would be criminals through their "chismes" about what is waiting for them at the local cuartel.

I don't want to go to jail either, but if I do go for two months, I sure will make more than my case to let everyone know what its like.

Now, do you think it might have an effect on those criminals once they hear what this innocent person went through? Don't you think the criminal might think that if an innocent person gets a bit of hell, what would it be like for a real criminal?

It will all work well.

After careful introspective thought, I have to agree with Nal0whs.

I believe every Dominican, especially those from the lower classes or of Haitian descent, those with a predilection to commit crimes, should all be rounded up and spend at least 4 months in prison just to show them what could happen if they don't behave

There is nothing like a good determent to prevent bad actors from living their lives

 

[Cleef]

Education...

...you desperately need some yourself.

After careful introspective thought, I have to agree with Nal0whs.

I believe every Dominican, especially those from the lower classes or of Haitian descent, those with a predilection to commit crimes, should all be rounded up and spend at least 4 months in prison just to show them what could happen if they don't behave

There is nothing like a good determent to prevent bad actors from living their lives

In the free world, detention of the innocent is not a deterent, nor is it legal, except for Cuba and perhaps some other antiquated locales.

"they can see the problem, they just can't see the solution."

Show me in history where such an approach worked for the benefit of the people? I'll show you 100x your examples where education has been a better fit - for all mankind, not just one barrio.

How about rounding up the parents that send their kids into the streets to work for them - into jail. Force parents to send their kids to school, once you have a 100% attendance, then all the funds and support going into the schools will be better administered. Simple economics "supply and demand".

As it stands now, no one gives the public schooling much thought. That's it's own pandoras box, but if the demands were greater, more people would be involved and we wouldn't have as many teachers as ill-qualified and hungry - so hungry they eat the students lunch.

It's all about education. It's not going to fix anything today or tomorrow, but it would eventually root out the sinister dealings of scumbags and the lichen that follow them around.

The Dominicans that do wrong, do so because they know they can get away with it. That goes for everyone; rich, poor and whoever feels they might be in the middle.

Education applied with a sincere effort would allow the understanding of doing right because it's right, and not doing wrong because it's wrong.

Education is like having a familiar toolbox that you reach into and always find the right tool. When you've developed good values and you are thus challenged, you reach into your experiential toolbox and do the right thing because you know it's right, you don't even have to think about it. You don't go searching for the right thing to say or do, you just reach in and grab it.

If you've been living your short life trying to figure out how to get the cars stopped at the lights to give you money, it's highly unlikely you're developing any substantial 'life tools' to help you when substantial decisions need to be made, challenges to be overcome.

The reality is that you don't matter to anyone, and then you don't matter to yourself, and the downward spiral is now at full speed.

But forget it, just go buy more helicopters and guns, build your homes in Jarabacoa, eat yucca.

 

[Ricardo900]

Crime should already be down

I don't get it!

They got a Leonel back in office
The pesos is 30:1 (against my best gringo wishes of course)
There's talk of a welfare system
Blackouts are only 12hrs a day
The gov't is cracking down on corruption

Everybody should be dancing in the streets

 

[Argo]

...you desperately need some yourself.In the free world, detention of the innocent is not a deterent, nor is it legal, except for Cuba and perhaps some other antiquated locales.

"they can see the problem, they just can't see the solution."

Show me in history where such an approach worked for the benefit of the people? I'll show you 100x your examples where education has been a better fit - for all mankind, not just one barrio.

How about rounding up the parents that send their kids into the streets to work for them - into jail. Force parents to send their kids to school, once you have a 100% attendance, then all the funds and support going into the schools will be better administered. Simple economics "supply and demand".

As it stands now, no one gives the public schooling much thought. That's it's own pandoras box, but if the demands were greater, more people would be involved and we wouldn't have as many teachers as ill-qualified and hungry - so hungry they eat the students lunch.

It's all about education. It's not going to fix anything today or tomorrow, but it would eventually root out the sinister dealings of scumbags and the lichen that follow them around.

The Dominicans that do wrong, do so because they know they can get away with it. That goes for everyone; rich, poor and whoever feels they might be in the middle.

Education applied with a sincere effort would allow the understanding of doing right because it's right, and not doing wrong because it's wrong.

Education is like having a familiar toolbox that you reach into and always find the right tool. When you've developed good values and you are thus challenged, you reach into your experiential toolbox and do the right thing because you know it's right, you don't even have to think about it. You don't go searching for the right thing to say or do, you just reach in and grab it.

If you've been living your short life trying to figure out how to get the cars stopped at the lights to give you money, it's highly unlikely you're developing any substantial 'life tools' to help you when substantial decisions need to be made, challenges to be overcome.

The reality is that you don't matter to anyone, and then you don't matter to yourself, and the downward spiral is now at full speed.

But forget it, just go buy more helicopters and guns, build your homes in Jarabacoa, eat yucca.

But Cleef, Nal0whs told me it was so, would he deceive me?

Please don't despair me further

I have to believe that locking up all innocent people to show them what could happen is a progressive social system

 

[CyaBye3015]

But Cleef, Nal0whs told me it was so, would he deceive me?

Please don't despair me further

I have to believe that locking up all innocent people to show them what could happen is a progressive social system

Argo, I'm starting to come around to Nal0whs way of thinking too.

Perhaps they could issue guns to all of the innocent people when they are released after being locked up. This way you kill two birds with one stone. First you would be teaching all of the innocent people a lesson. Second I'm sure many of them would seek revenge on the people who locked them up, thus eliminating many of the BIGGEST CROOKS in the country. We would be teaching them a lesson too!!

Joe

 

[Cleef]

Plan B.

Argo, I'm starting to come around to Nal0whs way of thinking too.

Perhaps they could issue guns to all of the innocent people when they are released after being locked up. This way you kill two birds with one stone. First you would be teaching all of the innocent people a lesson. Second I'm sure many of them would seek revenge on the people who locked them up, thus eliminating many of the BIGGEST CROOKS in the country. We would be teaching them a lesson too!!
Joe

Let's make this plan B.

 

[Robert]

Interesting ideas Nal0whs. A little radicle for my tastes, but interesting never the less.

Note: Just because someone has an opinion/view on a particular subject, doesn't necessarily mean they are nuts. Some of the best ideas have come from the most "out of the box" thinking.

I think CC and Larry hit on a point that is very relevant, drugs.
Right now we are seeing turf wars and the fight for control in some poor barrios. Just ask anyone from a poor barrior about the availability of drugs.
Most will tell you it's available or they know someone that knows someone etc etc.

The police are a mess, corrupt, under paid and under funded. They have no reason to be motivated to do good, but many reasons to be motivated to do bad. The previous government neglected the police as that policy worked very much in their favor. High crime and chaos can sometimes be good for business.

You only have to look at the scandals over the last few years relating to drugs and high ranking officials. You only have to look at some of the scandals they are now starting to unearth. What you are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg.

When the ex-chief of police is not allowed to leave the country as he is under investigation for using stolen cars, what message does that send out?
When a presidential plane is used to courier drugs, what does that tell you?

Crime and corruption are very deeply rooted at certain levels here. It's very much the norm, not the exception.

How do you solve it?

That's a good question and one I don't have the answer for.
I'm sure the answer will come from some "out of the box" thinking...

 

[Guatiao]

Interesting thread

This thread also is touching on a very delicate matter Human Rights vs. Crime Punishment. I believe crime can be stopped and taken to a minimum, this crime wave is very new to the DR, if you consider other Latin American countries.
My ideas on stopping crime:
1. Enforce the laws they have now.
2. Create new laws. Against the big 4: Murder, Rape, Drugs & Corruption. I believe there should be a law that states any person convicted of any of these crimes should be given minimum 25 yrs without parole w/ Hard Manual Labor. *=Cheap Slave Work= new cheap economy.
3. Government & Police/ Military clean up. Even though it seems Leonel is doing so, he should tighten the governments belt and get even stronger.
4. Good Idea from Nal0whs= new uniforms, harder to copy. Most people state the police is doing so & so, but I wonder how many of them are truly cops or just lowlifes with good sewing kits?
5. Ban on all, I repeat, ALL Firearms.
Police should be given new non-lethal weapons that hurt like hell, making you wish you were shot. Also any citizen caught with a fire weapon should be fined and given maximum 2-years community service, harsher punishments for more guns or if the person repeats the crime.
6. Education of children and add more school hours, they are let out at 12:00!! I wish I had it like that in the states. Also after school programs or a public athletic league, where children could learn about other sports not just baseball (ie tennis, soccer, golf. etc.).
7. Make littering a crime, like they do in Singapore.

To stop crime human rights will always be violated, many countries such as Singapore have harsh punishments and they certainly violate human rights and NATO or the UN are not marching their arm forces. The DR can too create harsher laws and enforce them, every country has a right to stop crime no matter who pays the price. Imagine DR major cities clean free of litter with no crime, truly can it be called a paradise.

PS The USA violates alot of civil rights which they have created. Why do people get so touchy on gun control. I think they should be banned, what do you guys think?
Guns bring violence.

 

[jcarn]

nal0whs,

your idea while i'm sure it is presented in good faith just isnt plausible. i'm going to give you an example to backup my statement.

okay let's say there's a dominican with a wife and a baby who goes home from his job to eat lunch. Let's call him jose. Jose wears a green t-shirt today. On his way back to work something happens and the police wind up rounding up Jose and let's say 4 or 5 other individuals because they are all suspected of stealing someone's purse just because they happen to be in the same general area and all wearing green t-shirts. They find one of them other than Jose actually has the purse in thier pants.

now... based upon your idea, Jose has to spend 2 months in jail. His wife now has no way to support herself and the kid and winds up becoming a prostitute. Jose comes out of jail and finds that he no longer has a job, cannot get another job because he has a ficha, and his wife is a puta.

all because of your law..

what can Jose do now OTHER than become a criminal?

 

[stig]

Start with ourselves?

Nal0whs views is interesting in the way of starting a process, but it also gives us some idea of where he stands. The spoken and written word is free and has never killed anyone. If I tell you ?I kill you? it?s not nice hear, the problem starts when I act.

capodominicanos sounds interesting, how will you proceed?

What kind of weapens are the robbers using? Is there no guncontrol in DR?

If the leaders are corrupt then I guess you find corruption all the way down. Get rid of the corrupt police must be a good idea. The educationidea sounds good to me, but how to make this economicly possible must be a big challenge.

Maybe it is a good idea to start with ourselves. Where do we leave our tourist money, in the pockets of gringos? I will visit DR jan/feb, (and try to find out if DR is an nice place to stay in the last years of my life) when I search for a place to stay it looks to me like a lot of the hotels/bars are owned by gringos, and thats probably ok. Other places which I visited it is possible stay private, and I don?t find this opportunity in DR. Will we transfer more money to the inhabitants if this possibility were developed?

When visiting a bar is it possible to take one beer less and give the money to Sosua kids?

(Please, excuse my limited knowledge of English). Have a nice day.

Greetings from icebergs and an
innocent norwegian grandpa

 

[Riu]

get rid of the haitians , they re the biggest criminals of all

Don't you think that is a bit racist?

 

[Riu]

After careful introspective thought, I have to agree with Nal0whs.

I believe every Dominican, especially those from the lower classes or of Haitian descent, those with a predilection to commit crimes, should all be rounded up and spend at least 4 months in prison just to show them what could happen if they don't behave

There is nothing like a good determent to prevent bad actors from living their lives

Guys, I don't think racism and stereotyping is an answer to anything. Just for thinking this you should be put in jail and give you a taste of your own medicine. Let's think real solutions to problems not bigotry.

 

[Mirador]

Originally Posted by FuegoAzul21
"get rid of the haitians , they re the biggest criminals of all"

Don't blame him, we all tend to stereotype, it simplifies things... For example, I think Dominicans are more prone to violent crimes than Haitians, but Haitians almost without exception are given to petty thievery... If you ask me, the biggest criminals are the authorities, who should give the example. Unpunished corruption from those in authority demoralizes the entire society, to the point that criminals rationalize their actions by stating things like: "Well, if the President can steal, why cant' I".

Mirador

 

[Riu]

Agree 1-4 and 6-7 totally

This thread also is touching on a very delicate matter Human Rights vs. Crime Punishment. I believe crime can be stopped and taken to a minimum, this crime wave is very new to the DR, if you consider other Latin American countries.
My ideas on stopping crime:
1. Enforce the laws they have now.
2. Create new laws. Against the big 4: Murder, Rape, Drugs & Corruption. I believe there should be a law that states any person convicted of any of these crimes should be given minimum 25 yrs without parole w/ Hard Manual Labor. *=Cheap Slave Work= new cheap economy.
3. Government & Police/ Military clean up. Even though it seems Leonel is doing so, he should tighten the governments belt and get even stronger.
4. Good Idea from Nal0whs= new uniforms, harder to copy. Most people state the police is doing so & so, but I wonder how many of them are truly cops or just lowlifes with good sewing kits?
5. Ban on all, I repeat, ALL Firearms.
Police should be given new non-lethal weapons that hurt like hell, making you wish you were shot. Also any citizen caught with a fire weapon should be fined and given maximum 2-years community service, harsher punishments for more guns or if the person repeats the crime.
6. Education of children and add more school hours, they are let out at 12:00!! I wish I had it like that in the states. Also after school programs or a public athletic league, where children could learn about other sports not just baseball (ie tennis, soccer, golf. etc.).
7. Make littering a crime, like they do in Singapore.

To stop crime human rights will always be violated, many countries such as Singapore have harsh punishments and they certainly violate human rights and NATO or the UN are not marching their arm forces. The DR can too create harsher laws and enforce them, every country has a right to stop crime no matter who pays the price. Imagine DR major cities clean free of litter with no crime, truly can it be called a paradise.

PS The USA violates alot of civil rights which they have created. Why do people get so touchy on gun control. I think they should be banned, what do you guys think?
Guns bring violence.

Very good suggestions. on item five, i am for more strict laws to get weapons. crime will always exist and everyone has a right to defend themselves. I propose:
1. If you have a criminal record ever, no weapons for you.
2. If you are caught with a unresgistered weapon, you are in trouble, mandatory jail time and community service.
3. No weapons to people under 25, if you are caught with one jail time and community service mandatory.

 

[Larry]

Don't you think that is a bit racist?

A bit racist?? How do you figure? I am not saying that he is right in saying that the Hatians are the root cause of the problem but if they ARE, then he is only stating the truth or at the very least, whether they are or not, he is stating what he believes to be true. The thread is about ways to alleviate crime in the DR. He has made an overture to solve the problem. Don't immediately dismiss it and cry "racism" because you have been programmed by society to do so. For if the influx of Hatians into the DR IS a big contributer to the current crime wave, you have effectively prevented yourself from looking at a possible angle in solving it. Maybe you wouldn't agree with deporting all Hatians but by examining the problem, you may come up with another idea/angle in curbing the Hatian influence on crime. Don't cheat yourself and curb your thought process by immediately raising the racism "flag" or any other PC flag that society has programmed you into doing. Look at the object from all angles. Be a free thinker.

Larry