Haiti’s political crisis needs to be tackled by the international community, says expert

Naked_Snake

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I would suggest that the family backgrounds of almost ALL of the Haitians in the US - their basic education level - may indeed be higher than that of the Dominicans. Perhaps not their "on paper" credentials so much as the value that they place on education, the importance on book learning, the discipline they instill in their children to study. Just speculation...
I was about to answer that in general the US has been more restrictive regarding the Haitian that emigrates there than they have been with us. And you can see this by the generous visa regime the US follows here vs the one on the western part. I personally know people that wouldnt have passed muster if they would have applied to Spain, any other EU country or Canada that somehow managed to get a US visa without a problem.
 

NanSanPedro

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Apr 12, 2019
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The point that I was making, as Bob said it, is that it isn't a Haitian trait to fail. By the way, most of them were US born (so were the Dominicans).
As much as people love to bash them, they are extremely hard workers.

Their government has failed its people big time is the understatement of the year. I also believe that foreigners/Missionaries haven't helped despite their best intention (if they ever had any, that is).

I know personally foreigners who made a shit tone of money "helping" Haiti and I even considered myself for a couple years (yeah, the money was THAT good).

Former Haitian Dictators and their extended family are chilling in the South of France, living a life of luxury with no worries. Why change ?

I was there 5 years and found no one I knew making a ton of $. Nobody. The only thing I did see were Children International folks in big SUVs driving all over the place. So no, I don't trust the big guys at all. But there are many individuals and churches making a big difference.

Do they create dependency? That one can be argued both directions and I truly understand how it's perceived.
 

mountainannie

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Somehow the DR has been better at making the Lebanese/Syrians here actually give a toss about the country they live in.
It is hard to get inside the minds of these "industrialists' - it may very well be that they believe that they are doing good - that they are providing work, etc. That their money is hard earned - that they did not CREATE the problems but are trying to Solve them... I am sure that Billionaires All Over The World believe they have helped mankind -- well -- Most/many of them.... Capitalism... perhaps a horrible system -- but the only one we have seen that has a chance of working...
 
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Jan 9, 2004
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I am missing your point.
Even a unsophisticated investor knows return of principle is more important than return on principle.
Somebody took the risk.
All businesses that are successful in Haiti are funded by the worlds taxpayers ❓
You are right...........you did........miss the point.

The World Bank provided the funds to Haiti to modernize their telecommunications sector. Haiti in turn brought in private companies and paid them to modernize their telecommunications sector. There was no financial risk for the companies to their own capital....................OPM.

Respectfully,
Playacaribe2
 
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Africaida

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I was there 5 years and found no one I knew making a ton of $. Nobody. The only thing I did see were Children International folks in big SUVs driving all over the place. So no, I don't trust the big guys at all. But there are many individuals and churches making a big difference.

Do they create dependency? That one can be argued both directions and I truly understand how it's perceived.

That is your experience. Mine was different, I am talking about people I know personally. I even know one who retired here in LT, others that had their family in SD and flying back every weekend.
For a westerner, to leave the confort of his home country and go to Haiti, trust me that there were an incentive.

I was contacted for a post by a foundation, but for family reasons (kids were small and it s always a little trickier for women), I didn't take it.

As far as individuals and Churches, I can't speak of because I don't know any.
 
Jan 9, 2004
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That is your experience. Mine was different, I am talking about people I know personally. I even know one who retired here in LT, others that had their family in SD and flying back every weekend.
For a westerner, to leave the confort of his home country and go to Haiti, trust me that there were an incentive.

I was contacted for a post by a foundation, but for family reasons (kids were small and it s always a little trickier for women), I didn't take it.

As far as individuals and Churches, I can't speak of because I don't know any.
It basically is conflict/crisis/risk pay.

Same/similar occurred with many of the private contractors during the Iraqi war. Met two former contractors now living in Bavaro. Pay was $500.00 a day..........................all expenses paid...........everyday they were in country. They were nowhere near any combat areas, but still the risks were there........much like Haiti.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2
 

mountainannie

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I was there 5 years and found no one I knew making a ton of $. Nobody. The only thing I did see were Children International folks in big SUVs driving all over the place. So no, I don't trust the big guys at all. But there are many individuals and churches making a big difference.

Do they create dependency? That one can be argued both directions and I truly understand how it's perceived.
I am on the side that - YES they create dependency.. And like Aida - have little use for the contempt in which "Christians" hold both the lwas and other religions -

But - there is an entire LIBRARY on the scam -- "The Lords of Poverty " "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" -- OH SO Very Many Books...

We didn't hang out in the same circles -
Had you been to the cocktail parties with the folks who worked for the United Nations and US AID and big NGOs such as PLAN and PADF & listened to their problems on whether or not they would make a profit on the SUV (that the US taxpayers had paid to have shipped from Africa?)
Or been made aware of the salaries ? $200k certainly not unusual, plus all housing expenses - including electricity and guards, plus private school tuition for their children, plus paid vacations home, plus top medical insurance? -

You would have seen WHY they are RESENTED -- They Live Like PRINCES among the POOR

All that stuff is an industry... I would NEVER give to UNICEF again after I saw how the head of their operation lived, never again to SAVE THE CHILDREN when I learned that their entire Haiti program consisted of sending a group of children to school in the Dominican Republic, Never Again to the Heifer Project, when I personally met the man who was the supposed head of it..... Now I pretty much reserve my "charitable" donations to putting a few bucks into the folks camping on the side of the roads here.
 

bob saunders

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I would suggest that the family backgrounds of almost ALL of the Haitians in the US - their basic education level - may indeed be higher than that of the Dominicans. Perhaps not their "on paper" credentials so much as the value that they place on education, the importance on book learning, the discipline they instill in their children to study. Just speculation...
All is a big word, my wifes cousin, born and educated in Santo Domingo easte went to the USA, with high school from St Georges high school in SD, and went to the University of Texas was an oil engineer for many years, working for various large oil companies. His mother was first a teacher, then a lawyer, and then a doctor, with only her medical degree from the USA. That side of my wifes family value education and hard work, thats the Jewish and Japanese side, the other side are honest hard working religious folks, most of them poor as church mice but they too value education. Most of the Dominicans in NYC area I agree are from the poorer less educated sector, but I know quite a few that were sucessful in the DR before they went to the US, both professionally and economically. I have met lots of Haitians in Canada and worked with some. I have never heard one say they wish to go back to Haiti.
 
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NanSanPedro

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I am on the side that - YES they create dependency.. And like Aida - have little use for the contempt in which "Christians" hold both the lwas and other religions -

But - there is an entire LIBRARY on the scam -- "The Lords of Poverty " "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" -- OH SO Very Many Books...

We didn't hang out in the same circles -
Had you been to the cocktail parties with the folks who worked for the United Nations and US AID and big NGOs such as PLAN and PADF & listened to their problems on whether or not they would make a profit on the SUV (that the US taxpayers had paid to have shipped from Africa?)
Or been made aware of the salaries ? $200k certainly not unusual, plus all housing expenses - including electricity and guards, plus private school tuition for their children, plus paid vacations home, plus top medical insurance? -

You would have seen WHY they are RESENTED -- They Live Like PRINCES among the POOR

All that stuff is an industry... I would NEVER give to UNICEF again after I saw how the head of their operation lived, never again to SAVE THE CHILDREN when I learned that their entire Haiti program consisted of sending a group of children to school in the Dominican Republic, Never Again to the Heifer Project, when I personally met the man who was the supposed head of it..... Now I pretty much reserve my "charitable" donations to putting a few bucks into the folks camping on the side of the roads here.

I'm probably being repetitive here, but I totally agree with you on the big guys. Never trust them and never donate to them.

But that doesn't negate the good the smaller guys do.
 
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Africaida

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I'm probably being repetitive here, but I totally agree with you on the big guys. Never trust them and never donate to them.

But that doesn't negate the good the smaller guys do.
Smaller guys doesn't equate good either.

Seen some of them in my own country in Africa, despite the best of intentions in many of them, totally clueless about the culture surrounding them. If you can't speak the language, do not understand the culture, how could you be helpful? Plus, the local population often loses trust because of the big guys as you said.

These countries don't need holy books, they need teachers and the likes.

I trust local associations who have been on the ground, often without financial incentives.
 

mountainannie

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Dec 11, 2003
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I'm probably being repetitive here, but I totally agree with you on the big guys. Never trust them and never donate to them.

But that doesn't negate the good the smaller guys do.
There were a couple of good operations that I knew of - (not missionary groups) that did really great work there - https://fonkoze.org. Still runs an AMAZING micro financing operation and has small banks and branch outlets all over the county. I have never ever heard one single whisper of a negative word about them.

And Conor Bonan's (former Peace Corps worker) project https://www.facebook.com/HaitianEducationLeadershipProgram/

I also heard good reports of https://www.lambifund.org

There is an amazing French Veternaraian - Michel Chancy - who launched an amazing project with the local farmers - Lait Agro Go

There is a great German NGO that works in agriculture and Jatropha production for fuel..

Indeed there are some Very Good Guys who are on the ground doing Very Good Work..
 

JD Jones

Moderator - Covid 19 in DR & North Coast
Jan 7, 2016
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There were a couple of good operations that I knew of - (not missionary groups) that did really great work there - https://fonkoze.org. Still runs an AMAZING micro financing operation and has small banks and branch outlets all over the county. I have never ever heard one single whisper of a negative word about them.

And Conor Bonan's (former Peace Corps worker) project https://www.facebook.com/HaitianEducationLeadershipProgram/

I also heard good reports of https://www.lambifund.org

There is an amazing French Veternaraian - Michel Chancy - who launched an amazing project with the local farmers - Lait Agro Go

There is a great German NGO that works in agriculture and Jatropha production for fuel..

Indeed there are some Very Good Guys who are on the ground doing Very Good Work..
Those are the kind of folks who give hope to Haiti's situation. They are the people who will help turn things around.
 

mountainannie

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Dec 11, 2003
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Those are the kind of folks who give hope to Haiti's situation. They are the people who will help turn things around.
I don't really think that they are going to make a difference in the long run - they are pretty much like Sisyphus and very small. To my mind it will take the diaspora to get things straightened out since lots of them still return often - have families there - still consider themselves Primarily Haitian - Even SECOND generation Haitians here speak Kreyole to one another.

There was a lot of hope among those of us watching Haiti - right up to Preval2 - who was beloved and really respected by all - then Wyclef was denied an opportunity to run - because - well -he would have won - and there were technicalities - and Sweet Micky was considered an embarrassment to the elites. It is the GRIP that the elites have over economy that somehow must be opened up. There was an effort to raise the minimum wage from $2 a day or so - and it was fought hard.... Haiti is going to be a real powder keg until Feb 2022 when the next elections are scheduled and I don't even know if there is any sort of organized opposition that has any sort of support in the grass roots that will be able to mount a decent candidate.

The real fear is that the country will descend into complete chaos - a narco state - needing strong, armed international intervention - Even worse than before when at least the opposition was united behind Aristide and Lavalas.
 

cavok

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Jun 16, 2014
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I am missing your point.
Even a unsophisticated investor knows return of principle is more important than return on principle.
Somebody took the risk.
All businesses that are successful in Haiti are funded by the worlds taxpayers ❓
Return of principal is only more important than return on principal - when it's your principal. That's why many investors prefer OPM.
 

Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
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“People should be more concerned with the return of their principal than the return on their principal.” - Will Rogers

OPM comes with strings.
Interest on loans
Leverage
And the responsibility of investing someone else's money.

Leverage has risk.
And cuts both ways.
I prefer betting on myself.
And investing my own money.
I am a small player in the markets.
And remember I am not a sophisticated investor.
Yet I live in the 🇩🇴 on my investments with the same people who are talking :poop: to me about investing.
To each their own...

Would I invest in Haiti❓
If I could find clear title on the right piece of land.
But then again I would not be the International Community
I would be a individual making an investment.
A very different prospect.
 

cavok

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Jun 16, 2014
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Of course Haitians are hard working! Except for the idle rich, is there any group that isn't? Like the old saying goes:

"If you want a rich person to work harder - pay him more.
If you want a poor person to work harder - pay him less!
 
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Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
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Of course Haitians are hard working! Except for the idle rich, is there any group that isn't? Like the old saying goes:

"If you want a rich person to work harder - pay him more.
If you want a poor person to work harder - pay him less!
"In a country where 59% of the population lives on less than $2.41 per day, the (redacted) could have simply given Haitians the money. Studies have shown that such “unconditional cash transfers” can be a more effective way to increase income and access to education and housing than many types of traditional “project-based” aid. But policies like cash transfers would have undermined the approach to aid in which rich countries simply prescribe “solutions” for poor ones, rather than allowing people to take their futures into their own hands.


"And if you want to stay rich, create a program with OPM that allows you to take advantage of the less fortunate economically" - unknown economic imperialist.