Haiti is a failed state in irreversible decline

CristoRey

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And posts 37 and 39 have zero to do with this thread on the irreversible failed state of Haiti.
Guilty (as always) charged.
I honestly don't understand why the Mods
don't just merge all of the Haiti threads together? This would create a real unorganized mess I know but at the same time would be a better reflection what Haiti is and will continue be long after you and I are gone. They could also include the following disclaimer: Haiti is an unorganized shithole, enter at your own risk.
 

USA DOC

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The topic is about Haiti.

enough with the off topic nonsense
On the internet yesterday was a list from the state department of the USA...of countries that have a level 4 , do not travel warning... the #1 country never to travel to was...Haiti...........
 

NanSanPedro

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On the internet yesterday was a list from the state department of the USA...of countries that have a level 4 , do not travel warning... the #1 country never to travel to was...Haiti...........

They've been saying that forever. Maybe, possibly, potentially, there is value in that for vacationers, but not for seasoned travelers.
 
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USA DOC

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We all know Haiti is a failed state and as such there’s no other lower point for it to reach, other than total chaos.

The situation there can and will change once the right individuals take control of the so-called government and the outfits which support it.

The population will have little choice but to fall into place once that point is reached.

The problem is not if but when these specific individuals will make their move.

You can go either way on these individuals in a mixture of either populists or a fusion of a pragmatic as well as charismatic leader.

One type is already there aplenty, the other is a Haitian by family bloodline but from the outside of Haiti’s realm.

The takeover would be a simple sum coercion of the outside players first and foremost.
while these things may or may not happen..the problem remains that everyday more and more Haitians cross the border and enter the DR...The problems in Haiti wil become the Dominican Republics problems, and that is for sure.......
 
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windeguy

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We all know Haiti is a failed state and as such there’s no other lower point for it to reach, other than total chaos.

The situation there can and will change once the right individuals take control of the so-called government and the outfits which support it.

The population will have little choice but to fall into place once that point is reached.

The problem is not if but when these specific individuals will make their move.

You can go either way on these individuals in a mixture of either populists or a fusion of a pragmatic as well as charismatic leader.

One type is already there aplenty, the other is a Haitian by family bloodline but from the outside of Haiti’s realm.

The takeover would be a simple sum coercion of the outside players first and foremost.
Unlike you, I do not think there are such "proper individuals" in existence. Or even if they did exist that they would endeavor to accomplish something that is futile. Why would the people "fall into place"? Ever? When? I think never. Haiti cannot be "recovered" even by mythical beings.
 

Northern Coast Diver

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I doubt that
Not sure about the rest of the country, but in the Puerto Plata area, the Hatian population has grown steadily and quickly since the government opened the border after the earthquake in 2010. Maybe other members who live in other parts of the country can weigh in on what is happening there. There is no doubt that there is a drain on the local resources.
 
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NanSanPedro

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As long as employers give them jobs, they will come and stay. I see no difference between the Central America/USA problem and the Haiti/DR problem. The only way to stop illegals is to not give them jobs. If they can't work, they won't come.

As I understand it, it has become more difficult, but not impossible, for Haitians to get jobs now. I am impressing on my kid that if he doesn't have a cedula, he won't get a job.
 

Caonabo

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Not sure about the rest of the country, but in the Puerto Plata area, the Hatian population has grown steadily and quickly since the government opened the border after the earthquake in 2010. Maybe other members who live in other parts of the country can weigh in on what is happening there. There is no doubt that there is a drain on the local resources.

It is a nationwide problem.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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The parties interested in using Haiti for its own gain are directly responsible for the problems in Haiti. I read a lot of posts from people who simply do not want to recognize this basic fact. A fact that I have supported with evidence in many other posts and threads about Haiti.
 

ctrob

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The parties interested in using Haiti for its own gain are directly responsible for the problems in Haiti. I read a lot of posts from people who simply do not want to recognize this basic fact. A fact that I have supported with evidence in many other posts and threads about Haiti.

Who would that be? If you're speaking about charity groups, they just use Haiti for their photo ops to raise millions of dollars from the extremely charitable Northern neighbors. Then they steal most of it. Disgusting and despicable, yes. But they are not responsible for Haiti's problems, they just feed off of it. Like vultures.

Ask yourself who it is that is stealing money from the Haitian coffers, keeping the country in a constant state of poverty? It ain't outsiders.
 
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NanSanPedro

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Who would that be? If you're speaking about charity groups, they just use Haiti for their photo ops to raise millions of dollars from the extremely charitable Northern neighbors. Then they steal most of it. Disgusting and despicable, yes. But they are not responsible for Haiti's problems, they just feed off of it. Like vultures.

Ask yourself who it is that is stealing money from the Haitian coffers, keeping the country in a constant state of poverty? It ain't outsiders.

Depends on the charity group. The churches I worked with were 100% legit. The big guys? No comment.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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Who would that be? Ask yourself who it is that is stealing money from the Haitian coffers, keeping the country in a constant state of poverty? It ain't outsiders.
"“Cash rules everything around me”. - Wu-Tang Clan

Cannot talk about Haiti without talking about how the aid that is handed out from the government of (name redacted) in what amounts as payoffs for political support. Opinion mine.

1.6 billion for emergency humanitarian aid
1.14 billion for recovery

Additional money used to finance other Haitian development projects brings the total money the (Name of country redacted) committed to Haiti after the earthquake at 4.14 billion.

Others have stated that the Haitian Government is corrupt and steals all the money. That means the officials in the Haitian Government from that time are rich. My WAG is there were 200 people within the Haitian Government with the ability to put their hands directly on government money. 2.07 million for each and everyone of them. Not bad work if you can find it.

Where did the money actually go?

A review of the spending of just the emergency humanitarian aid showed that ALL of it bypassed Haitian institutions. That means the government never had a chance to get their money on it. And more than a third went directly to the (name of country redacted) military.

Of the recovery money, 1.14 billion was used for the cancelation debt, another 10 million went to OVERHEAD for the (name of government agency of the country redacted). Quick reminder this the same agency that channeled much of the recovery money. Can we say self dealing? Nearly a quarter of what remains 202 million was allocated to infrastructure projects outside of the damage where the earthquake occurred. With the (Name of government agency of country redacted) helping themselves to 15 million.

Haitians are paid 5.25 USD a day to sew clothing for Gap, Walmart and Target.

Some say Haiti is a failed state and it is all on them. Others say they talk to Haitians living in the Dominican Republic and they say Haitian problems need to be solved by Haitians on Haitian soil. Others have resorted to calling me "clueless" because they disagree with me.

The chaos of Haiti is being used by individuals to enrich themselves. And not ALL of them are Haitian."


From a previous post from a thread I started in the Haiti Forum but applicable here.⬆️

It is not my job to answer the questions of those that lack knowledge. Nor will my spend my time pointing out the historical facts that I have posted previously in other threads. But on occasion I will give a subtle reminder when challenged.

Asked and answered‼️

Now my questions:
When Haiti originally won it's freedom, did the international community support them❓

Did Haiti cause the earthquake❓

How much money do you assert is being stolen from the accounts of the Haitian Government❓

How does theft of money from a government keep the people of a country of that government in poverty (as you assert)❓
 
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NanSanPedro

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Now my questions:
When Haiti originally won it's freedom, did the international community support them❓

Did Haiti cause the earthquake❓

How much money do you assert is being stolen from the accounts of the Haitian Government❓

How does theft of money from a government keep the people of a country of that government in poverty (as you assert)❓

1. Irrelevant. That was 221 years ago.
2. No, but still irrelevant.
3. We have no idea. It's a large sum, we know that. That's all we know.
4. The money that could have spent on infrastructure that would have encouraged development was instead stolen. It's a zero-sum game.

I knew of a Christian business man that came to Haiti on a mission trip. Very wealthy with business in the far east. I asked him point blank why he didn't come to Haiti and use their labor. His answer was lack of infrastructure and too much graft. Whatever customs agent you dealt with today would be different tomorrow. Costs could not be fixed. A business in Haiti to him was a non-starter. He even told me that he would do it if he could just break even but he couldn't justify losing money. So he never started anything. He did donate to us but that was it.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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1. Irrelevant. That was 221 years ago.
2. No, but still irrelevant.
3. We have no idea. It's a large sum, we know that. That's all we know.
4. The money that could have spent on infrastructure that would have encouraged development was instead stolen. It's a zero-sum game.
No facts. Just speculation.
1. It is completely relevant.
Here is a fact:

In 1825, Haiti Paid France $21 Billion To Preserve Its Independence​

Would have been a nice start for new nation. Everything else flows after that...


Backhand down the line for a winner. Your serve ‼️
 

NanSanPedro

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No facts. Just speculation.
1. It is completely relevant.
Here is a fact:

In 1825, Haiti Paid France $21 Billion To Preserve Its Independence​

Would have been a nice start for new nation. Everything else flows after that...


Backhand down the line for a winner. Your serve ‼️
No, it's not a winner. Haiti got their independence in 1800. They paid the ransom to France 25 years later. It is incredibly irrelevant. Was it a mistake? Of course, but they were afraid France was coming back. Does France owe them the money back with interest? I would vote yes.

And by the way, it wasn't a singular payment. They kept paying for a very long time.
 
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bob saunders

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No, it's not a winner. Haiti got their independence in 1800. They paid the ransom to France 25 years later. It is incredibly irrelevant. Was it a mistake? Of course, but they were afraid France was coming back. Does France owe them the money back with interest? I would vote yes.

And by the way, it wasn't a singular payment. They kept paying for a very long time.
And it was one of the reasons they invaded the DR. They wanted to tax and steal Dominican wealth to pay France.
 
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Yourmaninvegas

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It is incredibly irrelevant.
Because you said it is irrelevant. It is irrelevant. That is a circular argument. And a logical fallacy.

When a person’s argument is just repeating what they already assumed beforehand (it is irrelevant), it’s not arriving at any new conclusion.

And that is what you are doing.

Care to actually present support for your position that Haiti is a failed state. And that you can predict the future that shows it is beyond recovery?

My argument is that those who think that way must have some kind of ability to see into the future. And they do not. I cannot make a argument against something that is in the future and no one can predict.

But you need to present some historical facts that have occurred in Haiti beyond your opinion that mine are "it is irrelevant".

Your answer to #3 is a non answer. An assumption. Without proof. Care to provide something to support your statements or continue to stick with your circular argument ❓

Your serve ‼️