Haiti is a failed state in irreversible decline

NanSanPedro

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Because you said it is irrelevant. It is irrelevant. That is a circular argument. And a logical fallacy.

When a person’s argument is just repeating what they already assumed beforehand (it is irrelevant), it’s not arriving at any new conclusion.

And that is what you are doing.

Care to actually present support for your position that Haiti is a failed state. And that you can predict the future that shows it is beyond recovery?

My argument is that those who think that way must have some kind of ability to see into the future. And they do not. I cannot make a argument against something that is in the future and no one can predict.

But you need to present some historical facts that have occurred in Haiti beyond your opinion that mine are "it is irrelevant".

Your answer to #3 is a non answer. An assumption. Without proof. Care to provide something to support your statements or continue to stick with your circular argument ❓

Your serve ‼️

You need to work on your use of logic. Something that happened 221 years ago is by definition, irrelevant now. Again, I do think France owes Haiti, but sending them money will not work. A few will get rich and the rest will suffer. If you're asserting it's relevant, back up your assertion.

#3 is no assumption. I saw it first hand. Same as in the Dominican. Bribes by every government official. I do think though that it would be interesting to discover how much is actually wasted in bribes and graft.
 

Yourmaninvegas

Speaking truth to power is disruptive
Feb 16, 2016
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I forgive those who think I lack knowledge of this subject.

Please explain:
How will the problems in Haiti get solved without money ❓
How will the problems get solved by Haitians living outside of their own country❓

Lower the draw bridge the raiding party is returning.
(Sounds of horses running flat out!)
Archers take your positions.
The raiding party is in.
Raise the drawbridge‼️


I went to APEC (actually UNAPEC) but that what us students call it. Excellent private university by the way. All of my classmates were Haitians. They all offered to take me to see their country. I should have took them up on their offers as I still have not been there.

I knew a Haitian that cleaned houses. She spoke four languages. The "go fer" man in my first building that I lived in after I moved to the Dominican Republic was a very hard working Haitian that would take care of any odd jobs within his ability. I would even loan him money and never failed to pay me back. He had a credit line with me (no interest) and when he paid down his loan I would loan him the money again when he needed. Did I mention that he never failed to pay me back? I have no doubt that the majority of Haitian people are people of strong integrity trying to survive under difficult economic circumstances.

Those who want to talk about how Haiti is a failed state are doing so from elevated perches. If billions of dollar are needed for infrastructure it does not matter how much integrity I have if I am President and my treasury is empty. In that particular case I get the money "by any means necessary”.

I might also add that not one of my classmates indicated to me they were seeking money in other countries. They all express a desire to return to their own country and make a difference.

Finally, I have no problem with my use of logic or vocabulary. Those who make those types of statements simply disagree with me.
Difference of opinions and you know what they say about those...
None of ya'll can predict the future. Simply because there are problems now do not mean that there will always be problems.
 
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bob saunders

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I forgive those who think I lack knowledge of this subject.

Please explain:
How will the problems in Haiti get solved without money ❓
How will the problems get solved by Haitians living outside of their own country❓

Lower the draw bridge the raiding party is returning.
(Sounds of horses running flat out!)
Archers take your positions.
The raiding party is in.
Raise the drawbridge‼️


I went to APEC (actually UNAPEC) but that what us students call it. Excellent private university by the way. All of my classmates were Haitians. They all offered to take me to see their country. I should have took them up on their offers as I still have not been there.

I knew a Haitian that cleaned houses. She spoke four languages. The "go fer" man in my first building that I lived in after I moved to the Dominican Republic was a very hard working Haitian that would take care of any odd jobs within his ability. I would even loan him money and never failed to pay me back. He had a credit line with me (no interest) and when he paid down his loan I would loan him the money again when he needed. Did I mention that he never failed to pay me back? I have no doubt that the majority of Haitian people are people of strong integrity trying to survive under difficult economic circumstances.

Those who want to talk about how Haiti is a failed state are doing so from elevated perches. If billions of dollar are needed for infrastructure it does not matter how much integrity I have if I am President and my treasury is empty. In that particular case I get the money "by any means necessary”.

I might also add that not one of my classmates indicated to me they were seeking money in other countries. They all express a desire to return to their own country and make a difference.

Finally, I have no problem with my use of logic or vocabulary. Those who make those types of statements simply disagree with me.
Difference of opinions and you know what they say about those...
None of ya'll can predict the future. Simply because there are problems now do not mean that there will always be problems.
Here is an opinion more knowledgeable than you or I. https://www.csis.org/analysis/haiti-failing-state AND THEN THERE IS THIS https://www.ukessays.com/essays/history/haiti-a-failed-state-history-essay.php
 

bob saunders

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Some shared characteristics of failed or failing states. They are unable or unwilling to protect their citizens from violence and perhaps even destruction. They regard themselves as beyond the reach of domestic or international law, hence free to carry out aggression and violence. And if they have democratic forms, they suffer from a serious “democratic deficit” that deprives their formal democratic institutions of real substance. Noam Chomsky
 

Yourmaninvegas

Speaking truth to power is disruptive
Feb 16, 2016
505
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Some shared characteristics of failed or failing states. They are unable or unwilling to protect their citizens from violence and perhaps even destruction. They regard themselves as beyond the reach of domestic or international law, hence free to carry out aggression and violence. And if they have democratic forms, they suffer from a serious “democratic deficit” that deprives their formal democratic institutions of real substance. Noam Chomsky
This describes the 🇩🇴 ‼️
 

windeguy

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There is, apparently, the occasional person who thinks there is some hope for Haiti.

The rest of the entire world realizes Haiti is irreconcilably failed.
 
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windeguy

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It describe a much larger country to the north as well. The DR is a much more peaceful country with fair elections for the most part.
Here we go with the "It happens Everywhere" irrelevant comments. This is about how Haiti was, is and will forever be failed. Forever is a very long time. We don't need to bring Canada into this.
 
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bob saunders

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Here we go with the "It happens Everywhere" irrelevant comments. This is about how Haiti was, is and will forever be failed. Forever is a very long time. We don't need to bring Canada into this.
LOL, I was referring to a country bordering Canada to the south however some aspects could apply to Canada. I don't believe that Haiti needs to remain a failed state, but certainly it is that currently.
 

windeguy

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LOL, I was referring to a country bordering Canada to the south however some aspects could apply to Canada. I don't believe that Haiti needs to remain a failed state, but certainly it is that currently.
I believe Haiti was, is and will be a failed state. What is going to change to make it "un-fail"?
 

Yourmaninvegas

Speaking truth to power is disruptive
Feb 16, 2016
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Despite the remaining 13 years on Haitian soil, the United Nations’ military force only served to consume 7.33 billion dollars in that time, which were taken advantage of by contractors and suppliers, often with powerful sponsors.

The truth is that after their withdrawal from Haiti, the Blue Helmets did not fulfill any mission that has left a legacy in that island territory, except for the children of soldiers who procreated with Haitian women called “little Minustah,” who are abandoned babies, and that some of the countries from which those soldiers came, assumed paternal responsibilities.

This new theater in that failed state does not cease to represent a threat to its closest neighbor, where its president Luis Abinader has said that the Dominican Republic cannot bear that problem.
"Cash rules everything around me." - Wu Tang Clan With friends like the UN who needs enemies❓

The rest of the world cannot predict the future. And neither can the posters on DR1 here in this thread do it either. That will not change no matter how many times they repeat it.

It remains a fact that unless you are a time traveler that can travel into the future to see it and then not affect it when you return to you own time line, you cannot predict the future. I will stipulate that history is the only guide that some people use to judge others. But as discussed in another thread, if that is the case then we would never have anecdotal stories of individuals born into poverty that manage find their way to greater prosperity.

Outside forces within Haiti are not helping. The people of Haiti or its government are not in control of the majority of funds flowing through their country. The outside forces enter. They eat in Haiti's kitchen. They put their feet up on the dining room table. They party their behinds off. And then when they are ready to leave they do not even bother to clean up after themselves. But they are all very comfortable telling their friend when they leave: "Man Haiti is a messed up place. We could not do anything for them. Gotta a little money while I was there thought. Let me write this report up real quick.".

Get the (expletive deleted) out of here. Individuals can continue to state their opinions forcefully and with conviction. But just because they say it, it does not make it so ‼️

Much respect to those who agree to disagree with me without resulting to the usual ad hominem attacks that often flow from many of the people posting up in here. Having an apoplectic fit when someone does not agree with you, well that is just very unbecoming.:ROFLMAO:
 

bob saunders

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I believe Haiti was, is and will be a failed state. What is going to change to make it "un-fail"?
In 2012, Haiti’s Government established a long-term development strategic plan (strategic plan for development of Haiti: Vision 2030) and a new framework to coordinate the development assistance. A few months after President Jovenel Moïse took office in February 2017, he launched a program called Caravane du changement (Change Caravan) which focuses on seven priority axis, with support to infrastructure being a theme as central as cross-cutting. In this context, Canada’s engagement fits in the existing mechanisms of local coordination and is aligned with Haitian priorities for development – notably support to governance and the rule of law, and to improving the life quality of the poorest. The plan is there, it is the execution that isn't working.
 
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Jan 9, 2004
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Concurring/dissenting with the title of the thread..........that Haiti is a failed state in irreversible decline.

Haiti IS currently a failed state, but it is not irreversible...............it will just seem that way...............for the next 5 generations or so.

As to money/capital/cash solving Haiti's problems.....................that theory has been debunked over and over and over to the tune of Billions of dollars in aid from almost every corner of the globe. The elected or imposed leaders over the years, whether being from the right or left, have utterly failed.

It truly is a failed state.

Remain optimistic though.........................2121 will be here before you know it.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2
 

NanSanPedro

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Most Haitians that I know here send money back to their families. It helps a little.
It's a big help. The problem is the money sent back from the USA, Europe, and Canada just helps with the basics. It's not enough for the most part to start and maintain a business. That's where micro-loans help. There are many individual success stories with them, mostly women. It's a road to independence.
 
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windeguy

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In 2012, Haiti’s Government established a long-term development strategic plan (strategic plan for development of Haiti: Vision 2030) and a new framework to coordinate the development assistance. A few months after President Jovenel Moïse took office in February 2017, he launched a program called Caravane du changement (Change Caravan) which focuses on seven priority axis, with support to infrastructure being a theme as central as cross-cutting. In this context, Canada’s engagement fits in the existing mechanisms of local coordination and is aligned with Haitian priorities for development – notably support to governance and the rule of law, and to improving the life quality of the poorest. The plan is there, it is the execution that isn't working.
A plan that will never happen because it is a failed state.
 

NanSanPedro

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Apr 12, 2019
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We can debate yes or no the failed state status of Haiti all day and night. It's almost academic.

There are 11 million folks there. All human beings created in God's image and likeness. They could give a shit less if we call it a forever failed state or not. Those opinions don't put food on the table.

It has to start with the diaspora, but helping individual Haitians achieve a modicum of independence is a worthwhile endeavor. I work with 2 churches in Haiti, one in okap and the other in Savanne Longe, just outside of Ouanaminthe. They are doing just that, helping the individual members get themselves out of poverty.

There needs to be more of that on the micro level. Big bureaucracies like the Red Cross, the UN, and Children International don't do too much except drive nice jeepetas.
 

jstarebel

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Oct 4, 2013
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"Cash rules everything around me." - Wu Tang Clan With friends like the UN who needs enemies❓

The rest of the world cannot predict the future. And neither can the posters on DR1 here in this thread do it either. That will not change no matter how many times they repeat it.

It remains a fact that unless you are a time traveler that can travel into the future to see it and then not affect it when you return to you own time line, you cannot predict the future. I will stipulate that history is the only guide that some people use to judge others. But as discussed in another thread, if that is the case then we would never have anecdotal stories of individuals born into poverty that manage find their way to greater prosperity.

Outside forces within Haiti are not helping. The people of Haiti or its government are not in control of the majority of funds flowing through their country. The outside forces enter. They eat in Haiti's kitchen. They put their feet up on the dining room table. They party their behinds off. And then when they are ready to leave they do not even bother to clean up after themselves. But they are all very comfortable telling their friend when they leave: "Man Haiti is a messed up place. We could not do anything for them. Gotta a little money while I was there thought. Let me write this report up real quick.".

Get the (expletive deleted) out of here. Individuals can continue to state their opinions forcefully and with conviction. But just because they say it, it does not make it so ‼️

Much respect to those who agree to disagree with me without resulting to the usual ad hominem attacks that often flow from many of the people posting up in here. Having an apoplectic fit when someone does not agree with you, well that is just very unbecoming.:ROFLMAO:
Ya know, you come on this site, stir up the waters on Haiti which is fine because you are obviously passionate about the subject before leaving the site for a month or two and then coming back and starting the same ol thing over again..

Being that you are sooo passionate about Haiti, I'm curious as to what you personally do to make Haiti and her people a better place other than flapping your gums every other month on this forum??

I'm interested if your passion is fueled by any personal actions or is it just a load of hot air..