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Is it necessary to learn Spanish in order to live in the DR?
It would be appear to be easier to learn Spanish in America where one is surrounded by Spanish speaking people, you would be hard pushed to find a Spanish speaking person in the UK.
I would be interested to know who has managed to learn a decent amount of Spanish without having a family member/partner that already speaks the language - It appears that some people are being a bit holier than thou and I'm feeling rather offended by the attitude of a few to whom language learning comes easier.
I would be interested to know who has managed to learn a decent amount of Spanish without having a family member/partner that already speaks the language - It appears that some people are being a bit holier than thou and I'm feeling rather offended by the attitude of a few to whom language learning comes easier.
The incident that first comes to mind took place in a mercado [similar to the Mercado Modelo in SD that caters to tourists]. I was with my Dominican husband [who doesn't look very Dominican to begin with, plus he was wearing 'gringo' clothes, and he was with me] and we stopped to look at something. I think we were looking for whole bean coffee. Two Dominican merchants not far away started discussing the gringos [us!], that we looked like we could afford to spend $$, what they could rip us off for. NOT what they could sell us. Used a word for us that was insulting, can't remember what it was. It was said so greedily, almost nastily, that my husband spun around and read them the riot act. I wish you could have seen their face when they realized their mistake.
They got a long lecture on how to treat customers, especially foreigners, who are there to buy their offerings, r - e - s - p - e - c - t for others, etc.
Over the years I've overheard 'descriptive' physical remarks, and been insulted in Spanish when they didn't think I understood, etc. I usually turn and face the person, look them in the eye and raise my eyebrows at them to let them know I understood, and then turn away.
I am in no way absolutely fluent in Spanish, I often have a hard time with past and future tenses, but I understand most of what is said and can carry on a conversation with almost anyone. I think that's the minimum that an ex-pat living in DR should strive for.
Some people learn languages easily, I'm not one of them. In the early years of my marriage it was easier to just let him do all the talking in DR, but it wasn't long before I felt like a bump on a log and decided I wanted to participate.
AE
Not sure that some people are naturally better than others at learning languages. The main factors are external. Disadvantages include having reached adulthood without acquiring a second language, and living somewhere where most/all people speak your language so you don't have to make the effort. Some nationalities are said to be better than others - but it's usually out of necessity - as in the case of certain northern Europeans (Dutch, Scandinavians). In contrast, because English is so widely understood, Brits and North Americans are less inclined to make the effort - generally speaking.jrhartley said:
Those who have managed to learn are not just expats living with/married to Dominicans - that can be a help but it can also be a hindrance to have your personal interpreter/buffer against dealing with everyday situations in Spanish.
Doesn't that depend which part of the US, or for that matter the UK? By the late 90s there were so many Latin Americans in London that they had their own newspaper and there was a Colombian football LEAGUE (not just a team, a league) that used to play on Clapham Common. Where I lived you could go to a salsa night every night of the week, and the attendance was about 50% Latino.
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I would not have expected you to feel offended so easily, you being one who can seem to be quite at ease to post sharp, short little comments needling other people's opinions and inclinations. (Btw, I kind'a enjoy most of your posts even thou I sometimes fail to see much constructiveness. But that's MY problem).
I for one did not intend to belittle or much less offend you because you would have a harder time learning a language. Actually, you didn't say so, JR, it only subsequently was Lambada who interjected that you were indeed trying. I respect that, but I only can once I know it.
Your two comments however, rather seemed to indicate that you felt it was "fine" to live in a country without speaking it's language (you survive) and refer to the fact that after all, in YOUR country, there are plenty of residents who do NOT or maybe plain refuse to speak the local language.
I asked you JR, what did you think of them (you Polish neighborhood bodybuilders, besides of the fact that they were bodybuilders and possibly packing up more weight than you)?
My father who has, as most Francophone probably deliberately been "unable" to acquire only a second language, who ran his own business in a Germanic part of the country and had the audacity of demanding even from prospect clients to communicate en fran?ais s’il vous pla?t, moved to Spain at almost 70 years of age. Now that one time he tried, he was great with numbers, a genius as some credited him for, but he never got a real handle on Spanish, even thou it would seem so close to French. My dad turns 90 TODAY btw... and funny thing is, now that he has been suffering from Alzheimer's for almost 10 years now... every now and then, there's a word or even a sentence which comes out... in Spanish or, God forbid... yes, German!
Anyways, given the fact that I am conscious of the fact that I may have a talent or ease for languages, I know that my father had other talents I do not seem to have inherited so plentiful from him. I would thus know better than to poke my finger(s) at somebody who IS trying but may not have much luck with it.
Sincerely
... J-D. Sauser
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It is not necessary to speak Spanish. However, it will enrich your experience here. You will be taken advantage of less. You will be able to learn about what happens around you. My Spanish speaking Dominican friends are like windows into their culture for me. Without some level of Spanish, those windows would be closed to me.
i see a big difference if a non english but spanish speaking foreigner moves to washington heights, one of the world's capital cities for the sons and daughters of Quisquea and to little Habana in Miami, or a non spanish just english speaking foreigner moving to the DR.
the big latin enclaves like dominican york/little habana etc do not require any english skills within those huge areas, everything within the 'hood is spanish, supermarkets show their signs in spanish, available newspapers in spanish, neighbourhood meetings in spanish, the Cop on the street speaks spanish etc etc, a only english speaking native/american would have trouble to be understood there.
and it has a simple reason, that reason is the large number of Latins living there at one place.
i would guess that in NY live more Latin people than Santo Domingo has citizens, so within such a large "Expat" community separated from the rest of the City's 'enclaves' like the Irish, the Italian, the Chinese and the americans etc etc there's no big need to speak any local language/english.
here on the Island it is different, here we do not have such large enclaves of just one foreign language/country at one spot, the numbers of persons from the same foreign country/language living together in the same neighbourhood is much smaller, here you find at all locations the need to speek spanish.
even in the tourist areas, take as an example Bavaro/Punta Cana here on the east, a huge tourist area with many foreigners/expats/foreign workers and retirees etc, but even here you do not come around without spanish. to speak only english would restrict you here to a few Bars where mostly some of the expats hang out, so your socializing would be restricted to those few locations and the few people who frequent those places permanently. at the moment you leave your house to interact in daily life you need to speak spanish or you will be very limited to simple hello/good bye/beer/sausage/rice etc conversations.
yes, many workers at the resorts speak english, but the very most of them do not socialize within the Bavaro/Punta Cana area, they are here for their job, when their shift is finished they drive home and that is for the very most of them not Bavaro/Punta Cana, for the very most the daily life/socializing etc is not taking place at the few ""expat"" locations/bars.
to live on the Island without beeing isolated from every days life requires absolutely to be able to communicate in spanish.
there's no need to be perfect on such, but if somebody who lives here can not have a simple conversation about the next election, a new car model, the jokes in a new movie at the cine etc, then this person is not really living here, just imprisioned in a foreign country.
and to really "live" with a non english speaking partner without good own spanish skills, come on, a partnership/marriage without the ability to communicate and discuss and like once in a while happening in every marriage even fight (verbally of course) with each others and on such express own points and understand the spouse's points very clear, i find it impossible that such really works without spanish, as long as somebody is not married with a perfect english speaking partner. and even if the dominican partner speaks a perfect english so the communication between the spouses is present, then the not spanish speaking partner would be out of the communications when visiting family, interacting with neighbours etc. and such person would be from one moment to an other stand alone in case the partnership ends.
i did not speak any word of spanish when i came down here, and i found it hard to learn during the first several months, but with time a little basic collection comes together and i became more selfconfident, don't worry that somebody would laugh about you for choosing a wrong word or pronouncing wrong, Dominicans don't do such, the opposite, they correct you in a friendly way and from this point on the learning goes faster and faster.
Dare to speak and of course listen, watch spanish channels on TV, old films you know from prior years in your own language, such things helped me to improve my spanish understanding and speaking.
today i can have any kind of conversation in spanish, directly or on the phone, doesn't matter about what theme, in case of a new movie it is the same to watch it in german or english or spanish.
yes, it took years to reach such point, and the learning and getting better on it never ends.
and of course the practice is the important point, you need to go out and be with people who speak only spanish, listen, chime in and dare to speak. the daily practice is important to progress.
Mike
the big latin enclaves like dominican york/little habana etc do not require any english skills within those huge areas, everything within the 'hood is spanish, supermarkets show their signs in spanish, available newspapers in spanish, neighbourhood meetings in spanish, the Cop on the street speaks spanish etc etc, a only english speaking native/american would have trouble to be understood there.
and it has a simple reason, that reason is the large number of Latins living there at one place.
i would guess that in NY live more Latin people than Santo Domingo has citizens, so within such a large "Expat" community separated from the rest of the City's 'enclaves' like the Irish, the Italian, the Chinese and the americans etc etc there's no big need to speak any local language/english.
here on the Island it is different, here we do not have such large enclaves of just one foreign language/country at one spot, the numbers of persons from the same foreign country/language living together in the same neighbourhood is much smaller, here you find at all locations the need to speek spanish.
even in the tourist areas, take as an example Bavaro/Punta Cana here on the east, a huge tourist area with many foreigners/expats/foreign workers and retirees etc, but even here you do not come around without spanish. to speak only english would restrict you here to a few Bars where mostly some of the expats hang out, so your socializing would be restricted to those few locations and the few people who frequent those places permanently. at the moment you leave your house to interact in daily life you need to speak spanish or you will be very limited to simple hello/good bye/beer/sausage/rice etc conversations.
yes, many workers at the resorts speak english, but the very most of them do not socialize within the Bavaro/Punta Cana area, they are here for their job, when their shift is finished they drive home and that is for the very most of them not Bavaro/Punta Cana, for the very most the daily life/socializing etc is not taking place at the few ""expat"" locations/bars.
to live on the Island without beeing isolated from every days life requires absolutely to be able to communicate in spanish.
there's no need to be perfect on such, but if somebody who lives here can not have a simple conversation about the next election, a new car model, the jokes in a new movie at the cine etc, then this person is not really living here, just imprisioned in a foreign country.
and to really "live" with a non english speaking partner without good own spanish skills, come on, a partnership/marriage without the ability to communicate and discuss and like once in a while happening in every marriage even fight (verbally of course) with each others and on such express own points and understand the spouse's points very clear, i find it impossible that such really works without spanish, as long as somebody is not married with a perfect english speaking partner. and even if the dominican partner speaks a perfect english so the communication between the spouses is present, then the not spanish speaking partner would be out of the communications when visiting family, interacting with neighbours etc. and such person would be from one moment to an other stand alone in case the partnership ends.
i did not speak any word of spanish when i came down here, and i found it hard to learn during the first several months, but with time a little basic collection comes together and i became more selfconfident, don't worry that somebody would laugh about you for choosing a wrong word or pronouncing wrong, Dominicans don't do such, the opposite, they correct you in a friendly way and from this point on the learning goes faster and faster.
Dare to speak and of course listen, watch spanish channels on TV, old films you know from prior years in your own language, such things helped me to improve my spanish understanding and speaking.
today i can have any kind of conversation in spanish, directly or on the phone, doesn't matter about what theme, in case of a new movie it is the same to watch it in german or english or spanish.
yes, it took years to reach such point, and the learning and getting better on it never ends.
and of course the practice is the important point, you need to go out and be with people who speak only spanish, listen, chime in and dare to speak. the daily practice is important to progress.
Mike
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Sorry Marianopolita, I missed the word grammar out of my statement. English is indeed classed as a Germanic language despite the fact that there are more words of Latin origin than Germanic. The grammar is much closer to Romance language then Germanic. Thank you Julius Cesar (55BC) and William the Conquerer (1066AD).If you translate into German: I am here since 10 minutes when do I become a sausage, you'll get perfect German word order. My Spanish is not yet good enough to translate into Spanish, but i'd have a small wager that its much closer to normal English word order.Sorry Moderator, if I've wandered too far from the main thrust of this thread. i will write no more like this.
Well, I see it like this, in 1998 I met an old lady(I think she said she was 89-93 years old, something like that) in the little triangular park off of 7th Avenue, across from where the 1 train has that stop at Christopher St. She told me she knew 4 languages. And that she had taught herself. She told me that you should never worry or be consumed with grammatical rules because no one follows them to a T and even still the rules are flexible from one country to another that uses that language. I mean seriously, who uses Vos here? th,(x,z,s)?
But it would be nice if you made a slight effort to speak the language if you could. I notice also that although people who work in the tourist areas may claim to speak english it is not in a coherent fashion that you could understand without some hesistation. I think this is from a lack of immersion in the language when the people leave their jobs.
I dont know the guy to know if he can learn it or not. But I feel he may not be able to learn speech patterns or the mechanics of the spoken language. The written part isnt that hard but understanding these people can be a burden sometimes. I preferentially LOVE Colombian spanish and then Mexican spanish. The Caribbean spanish can be problematic sometimes for me.
There are 1000s of Dominicans, as well as many other Latinos that live in the USA with out speaking English.
of course you can live in DR full time with absolutely no spanish. shopping can be done easily (eyes can get what eyes can see) and bills paid (numbers are the same afer all).
and if you happen to me a bit of a misanthrope, like myslef, you can altogether avoid boring and tedious duty of having a conversation with people you do not care about.
thus at work i speak spanish (better every day) and at weary family meatings i do not. bliss!
and if you happen to me a bit of a misanthrope, like myslef, you can altogether avoid boring and tedious duty of having a conversation with people you do not care about.
thus at work i speak spanish (better every day) and at weary family meatings i do not. bliss!
I definitely believe that some people have a gift for languages. Cases in point: my husband and I have 2 children, American born and raised. We never spoke Spanish in our home, so they didn't learn as children. Our elementary school did not offer any foreign languages.
Our son took Spanish beginning in high school, and we were astonished at how quickly he learned. He spent a summer in Santo Domingo and came back chattering like he had been born there. Passed AP Spanish with a perfect score his junior year. Took Italian his senior year, and by November the teacher exempted him from homework and had him reading Italian novels. He attended Rutgers and majored in Spanish literature, minored in Italian. Today he's certified to teach both languages, but currently is teaching Italian. When he's in Italy and people find out he lives in the USA they ask him how old he was when he moved there - they assume he was born in Italy from his language skills. He speaks passable Portuguese, learned some Japanese, some Chinese, etc. Spent a few weeks in Prague last summer and picked up a lot of the language.
Enter child #2. Our very bright daughter is 2 years younger than our son, she took Spanish in high school, but it wasn't easy for her. Took it again in college but still can't communicate. Still can't talk to her grandmother or her cousins in DR. She's a NJ Probation Officer, and bemoans the fact she can't speak Spanish because it would be very beneficial in her job. Her 3 yr old son is learning Spanish so fast that we're amazed and thrilled. She's learning again with him. I think once she gets past the fear of speaking and making a mistake she'll do much better. The 3-yr old asked me last week "Mama, why don't you speak Spanish?" I told him I do speak Spanish. He answered, "Maybe, but not like Papa does". Out of the mouths of babes. Of course, "Papa" is thrilled.
Same family, same exposure to Spanish, same education, same learning abilities - except for the 'language gene' that our son has. Some of us are just wired differently.
AE
Our son took Spanish beginning in high school, and we were astonished at how quickly he learned. He spent a summer in Santo Domingo and came back chattering like he had been born there. Passed AP Spanish with a perfect score his junior year. Took Italian his senior year, and by November the teacher exempted him from homework and had him reading Italian novels. He attended Rutgers and majored in Spanish literature, minored in Italian. Today he's certified to teach both languages, but currently is teaching Italian. When he's in Italy and people find out he lives in the USA they ask him how old he was when he moved there - they assume he was born in Italy from his language skills. He speaks passable Portuguese, learned some Japanese, some Chinese, etc. Spent a few weeks in Prague last summer and picked up a lot of the language.
Enter child #2. Our very bright daughter is 2 years younger than our son, she took Spanish in high school, but it wasn't easy for her. Took it again in college but still can't communicate. Still can't talk to her grandmother or her cousins in DR. She's a NJ Probation Officer, and bemoans the fact she can't speak Spanish because it would be very beneficial in her job. Her 3 yr old son is learning Spanish so fast that we're amazed and thrilled. She's learning again with him. I think once she gets past the fear of speaking and making a mistake she'll do much better. The 3-yr old asked me last week "Mama, why don't you speak Spanish?" I told him I do speak Spanish. He answered, "Maybe, but not like Papa does". Out of the mouths of babes. Of course, "Papa" is thrilled.
Same family, same exposure to Spanish, same education, same learning abilities - except for the 'language gene' that our son has. Some of us are just wired differently.
AE
Yes Bob they do! However, as Mike Fisher so eloquently pointed out, they usually live in rather large communities of their own, with shops, offices, work, restaurants, job opportunities... most everything including at times government posts... all in their language.
Some locals take exception to that, others just limit themselves to not thinking very highly of them because of their lack of adaptation and respect for the local culture.
Most of the second generation, which typically DOES learn the local language even blame their ancestor's indisposition in learning the local language for their initial poverty (NYC's Italian community, typically).
"Our" situation here, can in my opinion in no way be compared to that of not only thousands but probably 100's of thousands if not Millions of immigrants congregating not only in US cities in such communities.
And even if it could be compared, would we then not equally seem unwilling to integrate or refusing to respect the local culture?
My question still stand's unanswered by those who ponder the same point you brought forward, Bob:
- How do YOU feel about the immigrants in YOUR country who display that attitude? Do you like it?
- Is it your opinion that you (your country's locals) should all learn the languages of new waves of immigrants?
- Do you think that immigrants to your country will be successful if they don't learn YOUR country's language?
... J-D.
Impressive to the point of being scary.
Congratulations!Bolding mine - although I concede there is an innate factor in cases of brilliant linguists like your son, I would combine that with motivation and personality type - another poster mentioned earlier that you had to cast off inhibitions and be prepared to make mistakes.
Compare different cases involving expats with local partner - some less confident/more self-conscious types will use their local partner as a buffer and won't learn the language, while others will make the most of their access to a native speaker to immerse themselves and thus learn.
I certainly promote learning Spanish but that being said I think there is only a very small percentage that make it to being fluent and yet people apparently get along just fine here.
Also, anymore Dominicans are learning English by the droves and in ten years it will be that much easier to be an English speaker here.
I've pondered why so many people seem to have a problem learning to speak Spanish and I think it either mostly has to do with the age, the fact that most English speakers already have an established income and thus don't have to learn Spanish to work and that English speakers aren't really conditioned from a young age to feel like they need to learn a foreign language well.
Also, anymore Dominicans are learning English by the droves and in ten years it will be that much easier to be an English speaker here.
I've pondered why so many people seem to have a problem learning to speak Spanish and I think it either mostly has to do with the age, the fact that most English speakers already have an established income and thus don't have to learn Spanish to work and that English speakers aren't really conditioned from a young age to feel like they need to learn a foreign language well.
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In response to: "Is it necessary to learn Spanish in order to live in the DR?"
When I first came to the DR I knew about five Spanish words (agua, taco, burrito, Hola, and Buenas Dias). I grew up in SoCal so I thought I knew enough to get buy...
The reality is Yes, you can get by and live just fine in the DR without knowing any Spanish, or just a few words. But that depends on what you want to get out of your experience. If you are happy speaking with your expressions and your eyes, you can do it. I did that for a long time. (probably close to two years)
During that time I had the opportunity to tell people many interesting things. One time I told someone I was embarasada (the problem is I am a man...). Another time, I bought something that was clearly labeled "Danado" because it was heavily discounted, thinking it was just discounted because it was open. I then wanted to go back and complain because it fell apart when I took it out of the package.
My most recent experience was telling my brother in law that I loved the smell of my closet because it made my clothes "Huele de cerdo" rather than "cedro". This was just after we had an incredible cedar closet installed in our house.
The truth is the more Spanish I learn the more I love it here! I guess the answer to your question is it depends on what you want out of your experience...
When I first came to the DR I knew about five Spanish words (agua, taco, burrito, Hola, and Buenas Dias). I grew up in SoCal so I thought I knew enough to get buy...
The reality is Yes, you can get by and live just fine in the DR without knowing any Spanish, or just a few words. But that depends on what you want to get out of your experience. If you are happy speaking with your expressions and your eyes, you can do it. I did that for a long time. (probably close to two years)
During that time I had the opportunity to tell people many interesting things. One time I told someone I was embarasada (the problem is I am a man...). Another time, I bought something that was clearly labeled "Danado" because it was heavily discounted, thinking it was just discounted because it was open. I then wanted to go back and complain because it fell apart when I took it out of the package.
My most recent experience was telling my brother in law that I loved the smell of my closet because it made my clothes "Huele de cerdo" rather than "cedro". This was just after we had an incredible cedar closet installed in our house.
The truth is the more Spanish I learn the more I love it here! I guess the answer to your question is it depends on what you want out of your experience...
Wow that's too bad. Honestly, here in Santiago I haven't heard people insult me within earshot in Spanish, although at times I will hear them asking if I'm a gringo. Funny how in the tourist areas one doesn't need to know Spanish but if you do speak you might hear something you'd rather not.
I remember being at a wedding, and at the time I was sitting at a table on my own. Two Dominican men came up and one said to the other (in spanish obviously), I need to talk to you privately". The other said ""we can't speak here as she will hear us." I spoke to them in spanish saying don't worry I am english and don't speak spanish. They sighed with relief and carried on talking. 5 minutes later one looked at the other and said - "hold on she spoke to us in spanish!!!"
Matilda
Matilda