- Thread starter SosuaSam
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Lets Help Out Lorenzo Sancassani with Tourism
First you state that reduction of prostitution is a good thing, then you say there is unemployment, of course if you take the ladies' living away from them there will be more unemployment!
Maybe you are incapable of thinking that far.
Der Fish
You really don't need to demostrate your lack or reading comprehension Fish - we are all painfully aware of it.
Btw when was the last time you were in the DR?
We've heard this idea before, but how about some assisted living facilities. Let old guys move in for the cost of the social security check and it would be an AI. Leave him $50.00 a month out of his check for una chica a month and a pizza meal out or something.
Well, say the Social Security check is what? $1500? or is that too high an average.. Call it $1000 or $40,000 pesos. Could they really run a sort of A1 senior home with that? or $900? If there are all inclusives that are just shut down, that would be an interesting idea. The entry for most "retirement" places is 72 and older and by far the majority of the tenants are women.
But since the old guys seem to be going there anyway, this would certainly seem like an idea. I don't know if they could fill up an A!, the infrastructure will be aging and they will require a certain amount of staff, lights kitchen etc. plus some sort of medical help.. I would think that someone would have to start this smaller and ramp it up.
While this is all very moral and just. There are a few things here that don't add up:
1. Almost all prostitution in the DR is Dominican to Dominican/Haitian (every spy fleck village has a few beer bars) - it is a cultural thing that is legal in this country. The non-locals just use the facilities provided, they are not the source of it. There are almost no non-locals going around in the barrios impregnating 12 year old's, compared to the local tigers. Get this in your head.
2. The NC has almost entirely closed down as an AI destination, while at the same time Sosua and Cabarete saw an increase in sex-trade. Almost every AI that I know has closed/scaled down with the exception of the Sosua central one. But every other one has scaled/closed down.
3. The drug culture, use and crime has eroded any safety on the NC, for locals and non-locals alike. The safety that used to exist is gone from the streets. The police are more corrupt then ever and are either on the take or criminals themselves. Chicago in the 30's.
4. There are no alternative jobs (sugar mill, mining, farming, light industry are not able to provide jobs/money).. so people turn to crime; drugs, robberies and prostitution. By closing down a legitimate (although not appealing) source of money, more people will become desperate.
5. All these bad choices by the DR govt might be OK for those with the means to visit the next island or those who sleep in fortified villa's in SDQ, but it is not OK for my local family, who day-by-day see an increase in crime and insecurity.
Conclusion
All you do-gooders should either shut up or come up with real economic alternatives to feed an ever growing population on the NC
No kidding! The foreign "mongers" are a very small percentage of the pay-for-play that takes place in the DR. As far as I know, prostitution is legal in the country and it's extremely culturally ingrained (just go to any "carwash" or hang out in the campo for a while).
A very good point. I'm sure there are local people who think things have gotten out of hand. Folks posting 40 minute vids on youtube from a hidden camera, wanna b ballers posting orgy videos in luxury villas on youtube, your CubaDaves, Mulanos, etc. When a person does a search on Sosua now its a lot different than even 6 years ago. Sosua has become a major international hub for prostitution by virtue of the internet alone, not to mention a lot of other stuff that probably rubs a lot of Dominicans the wrong way.14 years ago there was no YouTube or FaceBook "promoting" it on the internet.
A very good point. I'm sure there are local people who think things have gotten out of hand. Folks posting 40 minute vids on youtube from a hidden camera, wanna b ballers posting orgy videos in luxury villas on youtube, your CubaDaves, Mulanos, etc. When a person does a search on Sosua now its a lot different than even 6 years ago. Sosua has become a major international hub for prostitution by virtue of the internet alone, not to mention a lot of other stuff that probably rubs a lot of Dominicans the wrong way.
I found out about Sosua, 14 years ago, through the internet on a Yahoo group or two. The info was on the net then, it is now. I am sure it has increased in its variety.
ISOC existed 10 years ago. I remember a bunch of "orgy" videos circulating from Casa Linda. There were huge bikini contests in Blackbeard's and in New Garden years ago with many videos.
Could it be the type of monger that is the "problem"? Interesting....
1. Safety of tourists
2. Friendliness and helpfulness of native population
3. Value for money
4. Service
5. Noise reduction
6.Necessity of tourism and how to treat tourists taught as part of the school curriculum.
Without the above, buildings and infrastructure mean nothing.
2. Friendliness and helpfulness of native population
3. Value for money
4. Service
5. Noise reduction
6.Necessity of tourism and how to treat tourists taught as part of the school curriculum.
Without the above, buildings and infrastructure mean nothing.
I found out about Sosua, 14 years ago, through the internet on a Yahoo group or two. The info was on the net then, it is now. I am sure it has increased in its variety.
ISOC existed 10 years ago. I remember a bunch of "orgy" videos circulating from Casa Linda. There were huge bikini contests in Blackbeard's and in New Garden years ago with many videos.
Could it be the type of monger that is the "problem"? Interesting....
Keep in mind that the information is now on youtube and google, which is much different than yahoo groups and whore monger forums that you had to seek out if that was what you were about. Now you do a general search on Sosua and get bombarded with stuff related to prostitution. This moves the information from those who specifically seek it out to anyone, including folks trying to promote tourism or other business and social endeavors. It takes the information over the top.
The landscape has also changed from 14 years ago in terms of the volume and who and what you see. Dominicans have their preconceived notions about what kind of tourists are seen as high value and its not always based on economics. I don't think prostitution will ever totally be gone but there may be a cleaning up of some undesirable aspects of what certain Dominicans will accept and a recalibration of the scene. I don't think some of the past targets were themselves the problem but they contributed to a growing problem.
No kidding! The foreign "mongers" are a very small percentage of the pay-for-play that takes place in the DR. As far as I know, prostitution is legal in the country and it's extremely culturally ingrained (just go to any "carwash" or hang out in the campo for a while).
Notice that the campo car wash is not the target of the government.
While this is all very moral and just. There are a few things here that don't add up:
1. Almost all prostitution in the DR is Dominican to Dominican/Haitian (every spy fleck village has a few beer bars) - it is a cultural thing that is legal in this country. The non-locals just use the facilities provided, they are not the source of it. There are almost no non-locals going around in the barrios impregnating 12 year old's, compared to the local tigers. Get this in your head.
2. The NC has almost entirely closed down as an AI destination, while at the same time Sosua and Cabarete saw an increase in sex-trade. Almost every AI that I know has closed/scaled down with the exception of the Sosua central one. But every other one has scaled/closed down.
3. The drug culture, use and crime has eroded any safety on the NC, for locals and non-locals alike. The safety that used to exist is gone from the streets. The police are more corrupt then ever and are either on the take or criminals themselves. Chicago in the 30's.
4. There are no alternative jobs (sugar mill, mining, farming, light industry are not able to provide jobs/money).. so people turn to crime; drugs, robberies and prostitution. By closing down a legitimate (although not appealing) source of money, more people will become desperate.
5. All these bad choices by the DR govt might be OK for those with the means to visit the next island or those who sleep in fortified villa's in SDQ, but it is not OK for my local family, who day-by-day see an increase in crime and insecurity.
Conclusion
All you do-gooders should either shut up or come up with real economic alternatives to feed an ever growing population on the NC
Dutchie,
It seems you missed my sarcasm.
The problems are not prostitutes or a few "sex" tourists.
There are more prostitutes in Punta Cana than on the North coast.
What we see is political posturing and more.
The real ills and causes in the DR are not and will not be addressed.
There is no security for citizens and tourists alike. Dominicans are afraid of the P.N.
There is no water, electricity and spend some time in the "free" public hospitals to watch the people die.
I too have a dominican family, on the poor side.
Pichardo"s dream of the rising middle class is just that, a dream.
Do you see a message here?
The target here is the appearance of prostitution and what donP found and posted in the Armando Casciati thread:
Google translation:
"The Attorney General Francisco Dominguez Brito, instructed not to allow any foreign person established in the Dominican Republic to promote it as a sex tourist destination, ordering at the same time it requested the deportation of those who engage in this type of practice. "
"El procurador general, Francisco Dom?nguez Brito, ha instruido que no se permita que ninguna persona extranjera se establezca en la Rep?blica Dominicana para promoverla como un destino tur?stico sexual, ordenando a la vez, que sea solicitada la deportaci?n de todos aquellos que incurran en ese tipo de pr?ctica."
From:
http://acento.com.do/2014/actualidad...-puerto-plata/
DO YOU SEE A MESSAGE HERE AND WHERE IT IS COMING FROM?
The target here is the appearance of prostitution and what donP found and posted in the Armando Casciati thread:
Google translation:
"The Attorney General Francisco Dominguez Brito, instructed not to allow any foreign person established in the Dominican Republic to promote it as a sex tourist destination, ordering at the same time it requested the deportation of those who engage in this type of practice. "
"El procurador general, Francisco Dom?nguez Brito, ha instruido que no se permita que ninguna persona extranjera se establezca en la Rep?blica Dominicana para promoverla como un destino tur?stico sexual, ordenando a la vez, que sea solicitada la deportaci?n de todos aquellos que incurran en ese tipo de pr?ctica."
From:
http://acento.com.do/2014/actualidad...-puerto-plata/
DO YOU SEE A MESSAGE HERE AND WHERE IT IS COMING FROM?
The target here is the appearance of prostitution and what donP found and posted in the Armando Casciati thread:
Google translation:
"The Attorney General Francisco Dominguez Brito, instructed not to allow any foreign person established in the Dominican Republic to promote it as a sex tourist destination, ordering at the same time it requested the deportation of those who engage in this type of practice. "
"El procurador general, Francisco Dom?nguez Brito, ha instruido que no se permita que ninguna persona extranjera se establezca en la Rep?blica Dominicana para promoverla como un destino tur?stico sexual, ordenando a la vez, que sea solicitada la deportaci?n de todos aquellos que incurran en ese tipo de pr?ctica."
From:
http://acento.com.do/2014/actualidad...-puerto-plata/
DO YOU SEE A MESSAGE HERE AND WHERE IT IS COMING FROM?
Yes Windy,
I hear the message loud and clear - the liberal Western world wants the wool pulled over it's eyes again. This time it's about sex-tourism (although Moby Dick and her toy boy are OK it seems; oh wait that is contribution to the local development)..
2Morrow it is about the growth rate of the DR-economy, the day after that about gay-rights...
Well we'll accomodate them the DR-way, make sure we do something about it in public, while in the same swoop takign out foreign competition.
Meanwhile we, locals, will of course continue to do like we have always done...
How pathetic can one get as a Western liberal to believe this somehow helps the local populace.
Notice that the campo car wash is not the target of the government.
Yup. The idea is to reduce the activity in the tourist areas (or at least the most visible ones). It's utterly hypocritical, but I understand the logic perfectly. It looks bad for the country to have videos circulating of orgies by the pool in Sosua. OTOH no one is going to post videos on Youtube of a grungy car wash or pay-for-play in the campo. And very few tourists will ever visit those places to witness it.
The mongers may just have to learn Spanish and venture into non-touristy areas if they still want to "enjoy" the chicas in the DR.
It's their country so they can do as they want. Why is it hypocritical?It's utterly hypocritical
A lot of the more recent Sosua mongers have probably become a little too comfortable in another country. Mongers have had it good for a long time, but with the mass advertisement sometimes comes unintended consequences.
In a place like Japan, the Japanese won't let non Japanese in certain establishments. People have to recognize the bigger picture.
I spent last week Thursday check-in and Saturday checkout at the Barcel? PP in Playa Dorado. I went for a business meeting and had to venture out to Monte Cristi so wasn't really there with a vacation mentality. In all my years here it was my first overnighter in POP as always prefer PC/Las Terrenas. I will say I was pleasantly surprised with the city and the new Maimon port and beaches. I had a couple nice meals at good restaurants. The hotel was average as expected and the food was nothing special. By Friday night it filled up with locals so the buffets were a gong show which is why I ate offsite there forward. But all in all not bad! I agree need lower taxes at POP to help this effort.
It's their country so they can do as they want. Why is it hypocritical?
A lot of the more recent Sosua mongers have probably become a little too comfortable in another country. Mongers have had it good for a long time, but with the mass advertisement sometimes comes unintended consequences.
In a place like Japan, the Japanese won't let non Japanese in certain establishments. People have to recognize the bigger picture.
It's hypocritical because pay-for-play is ingrained in the Dominican culture/society. But they don't want this image to be broadcast to the rest of the World. And as I said, I think they are justified in not wanting that. It looks terrible to have Youtube videos of Gringo "ballers" partying and mixing it up with Dominican chicas at North Coast hotels and bars.
Actually, it's not just Dominicans who are hypocritical in regards to prostitution. It's sort of a human being thing.
It's hypocritical because pay-for-play is ingrained in the Dominican culture/society.
What is ingrained in the Dominican culture is their thing. I'm not here to judge that. It's not Dominicans blowing up Youtube about prostitution; it's gringos. I don't see the relationship between gringo whore mongers and Dominican culture, but I can see why some people want to try to make that connection. IMO, it's the basic difference between something that is esoteric versus exoteric.
What is ingrained in the Dominican culture is their thing. I'm not here to judge that. It's not Dominicans blowing up Youtube about prostitution; it's gringos. I don't see the relationship between gringo whore mongers and Dominican culture, but I can see why some people want to try to make that connection. IMO, it's the basic difference between something that is esoteric versus exoteric.
And I agree with that. I don't think anyone is trying to change Dominican culture nor should they try to do so. I think they want to present an image to (potential) Gringo tourists that doesn't "disturb the sensitivities" of those visitors. The Gringo visitors are just as hypocritical as the Dominicanos that are pursing this policy.
I think they should...
1. Create a ton of new jobs by having uniformed people picking up garbage 24/7. Lots of young men, or Haitians, or people in general would work for very cheap and it would clean up the place. One of the things that drives me nuts about the DR is how filthy it is. If the place was cleaner, it might attract more people.
2. I would re-do all of the beach front areas. Cabarete, Sosua and Puerto Plata. In Sosua I would knock down all of those shacks and modernize the entire thing. I know Sosua is quaint and a lot of people like the character of the beach as it is, but the bottom line is it's an outdated tourist trap and if you upgrade it from a colmado type of feel to a La Sirena type of feel, it will attract a different crowd. Puerto Plata is even more important, the malecon is an eye sore instead of a tourist attraction.
3. This step would take more time but I would really focus on making the North Coast as bilingual as possible. Teach it in the schools, start programs to get adults in English language courses, etc. Then I would make "zona franca" type of areas for call centers with huge tax incentives. Especially for the American market if you can start by getting the Spanish speaking calls and then try to get more English call centers.
1. Create a ton of new jobs by having uniformed people picking up garbage 24/7. Lots of young men, or Haitians, or people in general would work for very cheap and it would clean up the place. One of the things that drives me nuts about the DR is how filthy it is. If the place was cleaner, it might attract more people.
2. I would re-do all of the beach front areas. Cabarete, Sosua and Puerto Plata. In Sosua I would knock down all of those shacks and modernize the entire thing. I know Sosua is quaint and a lot of people like the character of the beach as it is, but the bottom line is it's an outdated tourist trap and if you upgrade it from a colmado type of feel to a La Sirena type of feel, it will attract a different crowd. Puerto Plata is even more important, the malecon is an eye sore instead of a tourist attraction.
3. This step would take more time but I would really focus on making the North Coast as bilingual as possible. Teach it in the schools, start programs to get adults in English language courses, etc. Then I would make "zona franca" type of areas for call centers with huge tax incentives. Especially for the American market if you can start by getting the Spanish speaking calls and then try to get more English call centers.
It takes a certain type of arrogance to say "They should concentrate on learning 'my' language."
When they get to the USA and/or England is when they should learn English. If you are in their country it is on you to learn their language.
Der Fish
It's not for me, it's for them. I do speak Spanish and I learned it because I live in the DR. I just said that it should be as bilingual as possible because they could easily compete with India and the Philippines for call center jobs. Add to the fact that they also speak Spanish and it would greatly help with the American market. Increasing foreign investment from companies would help the local economy in many different ways. Part of the problem on the North Cost is a lack of jobs and a lack of investment, the suggestions I made were all in order to improve in those areas. Taking it as though I expect Juan at the local colmado to speak English because it's my native language was a puzzling assumption on your part.