NEW: TRUJILLO GOOD or BAD 4 DR?

Chirimoya

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I have seen the 'but he's our SOB' comment attributed to several US politicians (usually FDR) about several Latin American dictators, usually Somoza (as juancarlos has already mentioned) and Trujillo.

Nals, you excelled yourself this time with that source. :tired:
 

NALs

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DominicanScotty

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Dominican history, NOT American history

estrelladeoro said:
you have to remember the Mirabal story, popularized by Julia Alverez, is a fictionalized account of their story. Julia Alvarez was "compelled" to write the story when her parents fled DR for engaging in illegal underground activity.

i've heard that Trujillo heard about their deaths after the fact. his guards acted without a direct order. yet, because he was president at the time, the propoganda of history singles him out as the one who did it.

why don't we blame george washington for the massacre of the native-american indians during the french-indian war? why don't we talk about g. washington's use of slavery for his tobacco crops and his unwarranted claims over unsettled territories that became the foundation for his real estate empire and ultimately his road to political success? instead we put his carve his face on mountains, put his picture on today's currency and tell tall stories about him to our children.

i think we should look at Trujillo within the context of history and then make a judgment. did george washington chop down that cherry tree? maybe we should start looking beyond the propoganda for the betterment of DR's historical perception around the globe.

http://semdom.50megs.com/mirabal_museo.htm

http://www.learntoquestion.com/seevak/groups/2000/sites/mirabal/English/index.html


For those that are interested in early American history and George Washington must search those sites. THIS site is about Dominican history and Trujillo aka "El chivo". For those that are interested in this story can go to the above sites for info. There is still a surviving Mirabal sister that lives in Salcedo, near Moca.
 

DominicanScotty

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estrelladeoro said:
That is an interesting reference to Bernardo Vega's article on Trujillo.

I agree the Trujillo Era was one of the most prosperous times for our country. He pulled us out of debt, brought industrialization, and spread cultural and economic opportunity throughout DR. Despite claims propogandized by US history books, I also think we should look at that time period within the context of history.

The movement of DR towards a US-like democracy was justified by the eradication of Trujillo. And the eradication of Trujillo was justified by painting him in a particular light to gain popular support for the new form of government. The fear was that communism was too close to US shores and that the US needed a democratic ally.

I think it depends on what you choose to focus on. Let's look at George Washington, the first president of the United States for example. Didn't he use slaves to cultivate and harvest crops for his tobacco crops? Didn't he amass a large real estate empire by settling territories that weren't sanctioned by the British? Was he not a significant part of the massacre of the Native-American Indians during the French-Indian War and throughout the colonization of the Americas? Didn't he use his military command to gain political power?

We choose to popularize historical figures through our stories and memorials. One such story is the Mirabal story. We have to remember that this is a "fictionalized" story that Julia Alvarez was "compelled" to write. Alvarez and her family fled DR during Trujillo's presidency because they were engaging in an illegal underground resistance movement. She popularized Trujillo from her perspective.

In fact, Alvarez states that she was in the US when the Mirabal sisters passed away in DR. Her fictional account of the Mirabal story is of someone on the outside, looking in.

We need to demystify the history of DR to improve our country's global historical perception.

I am only stating facts... Trujillo was not an angel... nor was George Washington a saint.. we Dominicans have to sift through the history books and decipher for ourselves what is propoganda and what is the truth.

We have to dig deeper into ourselves as a community and share with rest of the world what DR's history is all about.

We have so much potential to clarify the past in order to bring us a brighter future.


You do make good points. Nobody can argue about George being no saint because he most certainly wasn't. But then again, we can use a hundred different military leaders, tyrants, dictators, kings, queens, czars, tribal chiefs ect. in the world's history and not always have to pick on the cherry tree chopper. Trujillo did do some great things for the Dominican Republic as well. One of them was that he dispised Castro. But his treachery and brutality will forever outlast his good deeds. One of the amazing things "el chivo" was known for doing was when a church was built he would put his name right smack next to God's on the cornerstone. That's some ego!!!

I must strongly disagree with you that "las tres marisposas" did not merely "pass away" as you claim. They were executed! Go to the cumbre on the Santiago side where they were "executed" by sticks of sugar cane crushing their skulls. I am there every November 25th with honorable people to honor them! Maybe I will see you there!

November 25th (the day they were murdered) is a day celebrated in many Latin countries for violence against women! No fiction about that!
 
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DominicanScotty

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Readytogo said:
Nal0wal

You made me curious also. If you dig deeper into the source of the quote, it appears it can not be factually attributed to anyone in the given context

What does become apparent is the quote could have or was made by many in the US ?policy? division from FDR to LBJ


The link you posted is from a High School student in California :-(

This is a great link! Many thanks for digging it up!
 

DominicanScotty

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estrelladeoro said:
Trujillo's fortune is being passed down in the US. Does anyone know anything about it?


Yes, this subject has been passed around inside many houses in the Dominican Republic!
 

DominicanScotty

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ricktoronto said:
Why not post your Trujillo fan club postings all in one thread instead of a bunch of them, obviously these things are quite interesting (to you) and one post is MORE than enough.

Are you a relative of the dictator? Obviously you aren't a relative of those he personally tortured and killed or ordered done, or you would sound less happy about him.

Maybe there's a Hitler, Somoza, Pinochet board somewhere?

Amen to that!
 

Keith R

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It never ceases to amaze me some people's ability to romanticize and rationalize away the Trujillo era. :tired: I guess they never had a family member, friend or neighbor "disappeared," beaten, raped, threatened or blacklisted by the Trujillos or their regime. :angry:

As Vega suggests, even his ballyhooed economic "achievements" are suspect. Maybe the debt was cancelled, prices and the currency were stable, roads got built and the ports improved. But much of the economy became Trujillo's personal fiefdom and money machine, building in monopolies and inefficiencies that plague the Dominican economy to this day.

And do any of the economic "achievements" justify the crimes and terror under Trujillo?
 

NALs

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Keith R said:
It never ceases to amaze me some people's ability to romanticize and rationalize away the Trujillo era. :tired: I guess they never had a family member, friend or neighbor "disappeared," beaten, raped, threatened or blacklisted by the Trujillos or their regime. :angry:

As Vega suggests, even his ballyhooed economic "achievements" are suspect. Maybe the debt was cancelled, prices and the currency were stable, roads got built and the ports improved. But much of the economy became Trujillo's personal fiefdom and money machine, building in monopolies and inefficiencies that plague the Dominican economy to this day.

And do any of the economic "achievements" justify the crimes and terror under Trujillo?
The economic achievements don't justify anything other than the economic achievements themselves.

And if you really want to think of it, anybody can get beaten, raped, threatened, blacklilsted or disappear right now. Haven't you read the newspapers lately?

The worst part of it all is that today you can get beaten, blacklisted, etc and nobody knows who did it. It could had been that buddy of yours who had that tremendous grudge on you or just a regular person on the street. Under Trujillo, at least you knew it was the Secret Police, no question about it.

I'm not trying to minimize the Trujillo's Dictatorship dark side, but when you have kids being kidnaped from shopping malls, people being shot just so they can take your gold ring, and girls being raped by a group of low lives, I don't see much difference from the Dictatorship in such sense.
 

Keith R

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:eek: Nals, I can't believe you are trying to equate common street crime with systematic repression as practiced by the Trujillo regime! This is a new low for you.

The difference? How about knowing that if you dare say a word about the President publicly in your neighborhood or at your job, one day when you are going to work you are "disappeared," beaten and tortured, and then flown and thrown into shark infested waters, never to be heard from again, simply for voicing your opinion? How about your wife then being blacklisted from practicing her profession (nursing) and providing for her now fatherless child for years simply because the President's cronies and allies assume that the wife was "in on the conspiracy"? How about people -- including relatives -- so terrified of helping her because of what might in turn happen to them, that they suddenly move away or stop talking to the wife? How about when your sister-in-law's factory "mysteriously" being burnt down when the owner refused to sell it at 10 cents to the dollar to an officer of the President who fancied the profitable business?

These things happened under Trujillo and Balaguer, to people I know and love.

If you truly don't understand the difference from random street crime, I pity you. And I hope you and your loved ones never have to find out the hard way under a Trujillo-like regime someday.
 

DominicanScotty

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Nal0whs said:
The economic achievements don't justify anything other than the economic achievements themselves.

And if you really want to think of it, anybody can get beaten, raped, threatened, blacklilsted or disappear right now. Haven't you read the newspapers lately?

The worst part of it all is that today you can get beaten, blacklisted, etc and nobody knows who did it. It could had been that buddy of yours who had that tremendous grudge on you or just a regular person on the street. Under Trujillo, at least you knew it was the Secret Police, no question about it.

I'm not trying to minimize the Trujillo's Dictatorship dark side, but when you have kids being kidnaped from shopping malls, people being shot just so they can take your gold ring, and girls being raped by a group of low lives, I don't see much difference from the Dictatorship in such sense.

What you are writing is true. But this is where we get off topic and distort the thread about what we are communicating about. "TRUJILLO", "EL JEFE", "EL CHIVO". We have people attempting to make their points by bringing up such people as a "cherry tree chopper from Virginia" to a mugger on a street in Santo Domingo. We can go on and on and on about this and the only thing we will do to other readers is confuse the heck out of them.

Being that I do have blood on my mother's side of the family from this country (MOCA, IMBERT and JAMAO del NORTE) I can speak my peace. This man was brutal beyond anyone's stretch of the imagination. I speak with native Dominicans who are now in their 80s and 90s who are still too afraid to speak too loudly for fear that someone else might be listening. The stories of firsthand "eyewitnesses" and NOT from people that "heard someone that said something to somebody that someone said that someone else said" are horrific.

We are talking about TRUJILLO and only TRUJILLO. Let's try to keep on this subject about this man, his regime and his impact whether it is perceived to be good or bad!
 
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NALs

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Keith R said:
:eek: Nals, I can't believe you are trying to equate common street crime with systematic repression as practiced by the Trujillo regime! This is a new low for you.

The difference? How about knowing that if you dare say a word about the President publicly in your neighborhood or at your job, one day when you are going to work you are "disappeared," beaten and tortured, and then flown and thrown into shark infested waters, never to be heard from again, simply for voicing your opinion? How about your wife then being blacklisted from practicing her profession (nursing) and providing for her now fatherless child for years simply because the President's cronies and allies assume that the wife was "in on the conspiracy"? How about people -- including relatives -- so terrified of helping her because of what might in turn happen to them, that they suddenly move away or stop talking to the wife? How about when your sister-in-law's factory "mysteriously" being burnt down when the owner refused to sell it at 10 cents to the dollar to an officer of the President who fancied the profitable business?

These things happened under Trujillo and Balaguer, to people I know and love.

If you truly don't understand the difference from random street crime, I pity you. And I hope you and your loved ones never have to find out the hard way under a Trujillo-like regime someday.
I understand what you are saying.

All I am saying is that difference between life and death under Trujillo was simply an act of either opening your mouth or keeping it shut.

Today, anyone can be killed by some low life who could drive up to the side of your car and blow your brains out.

Random vs. Targeted, which is better of the two?
 

NALs

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DominicanScotty said:
What you are writing is true. But this is where we get off topic and distort the thread about what we are communicating about. "TRUJILLO", "EL JEFE", "EL CHIVO". We have people attempting to make their points by bringing up such people as a "cherry tree chopper from Virginia" to a mugger on a street in Santo Domingo. We can go on and on and on about this and the only thing we will do to other readers is confuse the heck out of them.

Being that I do have blood on my mother's side of the family from this country (MOCA, IMBERT and JAMAO del NORTE) I can speak my peace. This man was brutal beyond anyone's stretch of the imagination. I speak with native Dominicans who are now in their 80s and 90s who are still too afraid to speak too loudly for fear that someone else might be listening. The stories of firsthand "eyewitnesses" and NOT from people that "heard someone that said something to somebody that someone said that someone else said" are horrific.

We are talking about TRUJILLO and only TRUJILLO. Let's try to keep on this subject about this man, his regime and his impact whether it is perceived to be good or bad!
You do know that I am not a foreigner, right?!

However, I have had stories told to me by people who lived under the regime (some close friends of mine were very close to the Jefe and others were not), but I get both stories, the romanticized ones and the devilized ones.

One thing I find common is that both tend to exaggerate to either end of the spectrum, because both paint to me a picture that is extremely contradicting to each other's perception of his regime.

For example: It is true that Trujillo was clear about what he wanted in this country and anybody who was against him was gone.

Then again, those who survived the Dictatorship were the one's who did the very simple act of keeping their mouths shut.

Those who spoke out, were annihilated instantly.

I'm not debating whether it was a good or bad policy, I'm just pointing out that keeping yourself alive was a rather simple act, though for some it appeared to be harder than perceived.

Take modern Cuba for example, the difference between going to jail and not in many cases is whether you say the word Fidel (and get misunderstood) or you make the sign of beard below your chin to denote the lunatic. Those who could not hold themselves and criticized the regime went to jail and those who didn't are still free (free under the Castro sense).

How hard is it to keep one's mouth shut?

In addition to all of this, one has to recognize that everything has a good side as well as a bad side. Recognizing one while ignoring the other is not recognizing reality.

Let's see Trujillo for his evilness, but let's also give him credit for the good he did to the country. Like I said, he could have easily deprived all Dominicans of food, water, and shelter and yet, the opposite is what he did. Most Dominicans were able to buy most things and not go bankrupt, they were able to feed themselves, and they had a home. In fact, most of the wooden "casitas" you see in the countryside were built under Trujillo, by Trujillo, for the people.

Much of our infrastructure was built by Trujillo, for the people. You name any province, a substancial amount of development occured under his regime, development that helped the communities. Development that is still there for everybody to see. You can't go anywhere without seeing something that was built by Trujillo.

The Monumento in Santiago, The Malecon in Santo Domingo, in fact, all the neighborhoods sorrounding the colonial zone except Ciudad Nueva were built under Trujillo. The often considered most beautiful section of SDQ (Gazcue) was built by Trujillo and most of the concrete modern structures in the Colonial zone next to the old stone buildings were built by Trujillo.

The autopista Las Americas, Estadio Quisqueya, Puente Duarte, Palacio Nacional, Teleferico in Puerto Plata.

Dominican television industry started under Trujillo, Dominican radio flourished under Trujillo, electricity reach many areas for the first time under Trujillo, new highways, bridges were built under Trujillo. Many poor families received free housing, free reliable electricity under Trujillo. He introduced the Peso as the national currency and maintain the exchange rate pegged at 1:1. Living standards grew under Trujillo, etc etc etc.

Dominican Merengue was revived under Trujillo, he supported Fine Arts to the point of building the massive Palacio de Bellas Artes, the first Fine Arts school in the country. He developed certain industries such as the manufacturing of those double decker buses that were so common during his regime. The country was clean of trash, order was back in style under his regime, no more guerrilla fighting or invasions or destruction. Hospitals and schools were built. There was construction everywhere for some useful utility. He encourage tourism to Santo Domingo and Boca Chica, he welcomed Japanese to turn the previously inhospitable Constanza Valley into a fruitful place, which the Japanese have done a marvelous job!

Those were some of his good points that many people are completely ignoring.

These are things that can't be denied if we want to see the man for what he was rather than assuming he was evil in everything. He was bad, but not that bad.

He could had been as bad as Santana or Buenaventura Baez, but he chose not to be. Heck, Hipolito was worst than Trujillo leaving 1 million people back into poverty.

Trujillo believed that the Dominican man was the best human being on the planet. His plan was to turn the DR into the showplace of human development and might. That's why he ambitiously developed the country with monuments and grand structures, that's why he built schools and hospitals, that's why he encourage families to have more baby to "populate this depopulated country", that's why he encouraged the survival and rivatilization of quitecential Dominicanism such as Merengue music, Dominican art, etc.

He had a dream of a Dominican Republic that would gain respect, admiration, and inspiration by people from around the world. Who ever threatened this dream of his was seen as a traitor to the republic, because according to Trujillo's ideology, the Dominican Republic's well being was first and foremost.

Again, he was bad, but not that bad. Check some African countries that today are still under dictatorship and you will see that Trujillo did more for the DR than many of these other dictatorship did for their own countries.

I'm not pro-Trujillo, but I'm not anti-Trujillo either. I'll see him for what he truly was. I'll see him for the evil and good that he was.
 
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DominicanScotty

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Nal0whs said:
You do know that I am not a foreigner, right?!

However, I have had stories told to me by people who lived under the regime (some close friends of mine were very close to the Jefe and others were not), but I get both stories, the romanticized ones and the devilized ones.

One thing I find common is that both tend to exaggerate to either end of the spectrum, because both paint to me a picture that is extremely contradicting to each other's perception of his regime.

For example: It is true that Trujillo was clear about what he wanted in this country and anybody who was against him was gone.

Then again, those who survived the Dictatorship were the one's who did the very simple act of keeping their mouths shut.

Those who spoke out, were annihilated instantly.

I'm not debating whether it was a good or bad policy, I'm just pointing out that keeping yourself alive was a rather simple act, though for some it appeared to be harder than perceived.

Take modern Cuba for example, the difference between going to jail and not in many cases is whether you say the word Fidel (and get misunderstood) or you make the sign of beard below your chin to denote the lunatic. Those who could not hold themselves and criticized the regime went to jail and those who didn't are still free (free under the Castro sense).

How hard is it to keep one's mouth shut?

In addition to all of this, one has to recognize that everything has a good side as well as a bad side. Recognizing one while ignoring the other is not recognizing reality.

Let's see Trujillo for his evilness, but let's also give him credit for the good he did to the country. Like I said, he could have easily deprived all Dominicans of food, water, and shelter and yet, the opposite is what he did. Most Dominicans were able to buy most things and not go bankrupt, they were able to feed themselves, and they had a home. In fact, most of the wooden "casitas" you see in the countryside were built under Trujillo, by Trujillo, for the people.

Much of our infrastructure was built by Trujillo, for the people. You name any province, a substancial amount of development occured under his regime, development that helped the communities.

These are things that can't be denied if we want to see the man for what he was rather than assuming he was evil in everything. He was bad, but not that bad.

He could had been as bad as Santana or Buenaventura Baez, but he chose not to be. Heck, Hipolito was worst than Trujillo leaving 1 million people back into poverty.

Nals,

Yes, I do know that you are a Dominican. You as well as others proudly and rightfully so inform others that you are so. I respect this as well as many of your posts. You are an intelligent person that speaks truth in regards to this beautiful yet mysterious country. Hence the reason why I wasn't attempting to "beat you up" in my posts. You have read my posts I am sure. I write about the subject at hand and only that. Continue to write the great posts that you do! However, this subject regarding this person is a sensitive subject, perhaps something that should have been avoided. But, it was brought up and we, whether we want to or not will discuss this as best as we can. Hopefully, others can learn from what we contribute!
 
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NALs

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Nals,

Yes, I do know that you are a Dominicana. You as well as others proudly and rightfully so inform others that you are so. I respect this as well as many of your posts.
I'm Dominicano, not Dominicana. Unless there is something I don't know about, LOL. ;)

You are an intelligent person that speaks truth in regards to this beautiful yet mysterious country. Hence the reason why I wasn't attempting to "beat you up" in my posts. You have read my posts I am sure. I write about the subject at hand and only that. Continue to write the great posts that you do!
Thank you!

However, this subject regarding this person is a sensitive subject, perhaps something that should have been avoided. But, it was brought up and we, whether we want to or not will discuss this as best as we can. Hopefully, others can learn from what we contribute!
Sensitive this subject truly is.

However, I feel that people are only focusing on one side and totally ignoring the other.

Sure, he was bad, but he did a lot more for this country (despite his negatives) than most other leaders before and probably after him have done (maybe Leonel will beat him).

I like to see things for what they truly are or were. Nothing more, nothing less!

Hopefully others will contribute, it would be interesting to see what other have to say.
 

Keith R

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Nal0whs said:
I understand what you are saying.

No, I don't think you do. Otherwise you would not say what you say in the last posts #35 & #36.

All I am saying is that difference between life and death under Trujillo was simply an act of either opening your mouth or keeping it shut.

Would that it was that simple, so straightforward! My mother-in-law was blacklisted not because she could not keep her mouth shut -- she did. Her husband didn't and was killed for it. She was blacklisted because she was married to him and Trujillo decided not to kill her outright because one of his medical doctors intervened on her behalf. And what about my aunt's factory burned down because of an officer's desire to steal it? For that matter, what about all the young girls the Trujillos "took"? Were they "taken" because they spoke up, Nals? I think not.

These are not secondhand stories to me, Nals. I know friends and family who this happened to. Who lived it.

Today, anyone can be killed by some low life who could drive up to the side of your car and blow your brains out.

Oh, puhleeeeeze! How often does this happen in Santo Domingo today, Nals? Surely you're not going to claim often! Not you, the guy arguing in past threads how wonderful and safe SD is!

Random vs. Targeted, which is better of the two?

I choose freedom. Freedom of expression, freedom of association, freedom to vote as I choose. If the price of staying alive under a tyrant is keep your head down, never say a word and vote just as you're told to, then how in the world is one's country ever to escape the tyrant and his institutionalized terror and violence?

I bet you would have been a model citizen in Nazi Germany, Nals. Never say a word, do as the Party says. Hey, as long as infrastructure is built "for the people," the streets are in order and the trains run on time, who cares about little things like freedom, right?

Excuse me, I am going to vomit now...
 

DominicanScotty

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Nal0whs said:
I'm Dominicano, not Dominicana. Unless there is something I don't know about, LOL. ;)


Thank you!


Sensitive this subject truly is.

However, I feel that people are only focusing on one side and totally ignoring the other.

Sure, he was bad, but he did a lot more for this country (despite his negatives) than most other leaders before and probably after him have done (maybe Leonel will beat him).

I like to see things for what they truly are or were. Nothing more, nothing less!

Hopefully others will contribute, it would be interesting to see what other have to say.


Nals,


I am looking at the clock right now because I really got to get out of this office and on my way.

Sorry about the "Dominicana" entry. I do not know you personally and should not have assumed what your gender was. I corrected it, but after you read that. It wasn't intended to be offensive and I stand corrected.

But, I saw you responded again I wanted to write back. Again, I agree with you. There is nothing that a person cannot look at that this man (Trujillo) had something to do with. His influence on this country's infrastructure is everlasting. I recently marvaled at a huge concrete retaining wall that his administration built while on my way to Constanza, it was impressive! These are things that can not be overlooked that he did do a lot of positive things. However, I am willing to bet that more then 90% of these posts on this thread are going to dwell on his evilness which was overwhelming!

I must agree with Keith here. I have family and friends that have either been brutalized or known someone that was by this tyrant and it effects me personally. Be prepared to constantly explain this man's good points over the constant scream that he was a child raper and butcher!
 
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NALs

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Would that it was that simple, so straightforward! My mother-in-law was blacklisted not because she could not keep her mouth shut -- she did. Her husband didn't and was killed for it. She was blacklisted because she was married to him and Trujillo decided not to kill her outright because one of his medical doctors intervened on her behalf. And what about my aunt's factory burned down because of an officer's desire to steal it? For that matter, what about all the young girls the Trujillos "took"? Were they "taken" because they spoke up, Nals? I think not.
What would have happened if her husband would have never said anything?

Do you think that if you have a successful business today that certain key figures might not attempt to take the business away from you? Trust me, some folks have tried that on me, but my last name manage to keep them away.

And about the girls, have you not been to Sosua? Boca Chica? Autopista 30 de Mayo in Santo Domingo? All the Caba?as all over the country?

How many young girls are being abused (yes, abused - that's what prostitiution is in my opinion regardless if the girl consents - she's in it for the money) just because they are beatiful and poor?

These are not secondhand stories to me, Nals. I know friends and family who this happened to. Who lived it.
So do I.

Oh, puhleeeeeze! How often does this happen in Santo Domingo today, Nals? Surely you're not going to claim often! Not you, the guy arguing in past threads how wonderful and safe SD is!
SD is safe, given you take precautions.

I choose freedom. Freedom of expression, freedom of association, freedom to vote as I choose. If the price of staying alive under a tyrant is keep your head down, never say a word and vote just as you're told to, then how in the world is one's country ever to escape the tyrant and his institutionalized terror and violence?
I suppose you live here in the DR and did not flead the country.

I mean, we have freedom of just about everything. Why are those people risking their lives in yolas to Puerto Rico?

Could it be because they want MATERIAL THINGS? Hmm,...

I bet you would have been a model citizen in Nazi Germany, Nals. Never say a word, do as the Party says. Hey, as long as infrastructure is built "for the people," the streets are in order and the trains run on time, who cares about little things like freedom, right?
Every year, the Dominican Republic looses 3 out of every 1,000 citizens to emigration in this day and age of ultimate freedom but no money for many.

Under Trujillo, no such thing ever existed to this magnitude. Sure, he prohibited, but so did Castro, but you see Cubans going to Miami en masse even after such prohibition.

Excuse me, I am going to vomit now...
Sorry for not conforming to your ideology of the man.

I just prefer to see people for what they truly are.

I'm sure you have had moments when you were "good" and other moments of anger and dispair. Which side do you want me to focus on?

I'll say on both to get a better understand of who you are.
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
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Nals, you are tenacious, I'll give you that, but sometimes you have to accept you are defending the indefensible.

To say a dictator has to be given credit for providing schools, hospitals monuments and infrastructure, well, that's what governments are supposed to do, and many manage to do a much better job than Trujillo without needing to repress, murder, rape and rob the country blind. As for telling people to have more babies? That's a good thing? Give me a break.