Thanks for summerizing the discussion. I take it you want the discussion to end. Right?Barnabe said:
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- Thread starter sancochojoe
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Pockets of Poverty?
Try East Saint Louis
According to some friends of mine (American friends), East Saint Louis in Missouri (across the Mississippi River from St. Louis) is a very poor place in the heart of the U.S. I don't really believe this, supposedly they have to burn their garbage because they don't have garbage collection! I have to go there and see that for my self, but you know that old Dominican saying "When you can hear the river, its because it has water running".
Well, maybe I can believe it. I did witness a house in the woods of Central Florida with tin roof (reminded me of home), wood walls that were not painted and looked as if it had some termites and a very very poor black family. The kids were wearing rags! But, what shocked me the most was that little shack in their back yard, supposedly it was their "out house" in other words "Letrina". This in the U.S. in the 21st Century? Believe me, I was shocked beyond imagination!
According to some friends of mine (American friends), East Saint Louis in Missouri (across the Mississippi River from St. Louis) is a very poor place in the heart of the U.S. I don't really believe this, supposedly they have to burn their garbage because they don't have garbage collection! I have to go there and see that for my self, but you know that old Dominican saying "When you can hear the river, its because it has water running".
Well, maybe I can believe it. I did witness a house in the woods of Central Florida with tin roof (reminded me of home), wood walls that were not painted and looked as if it had some termites and a very very poor black family. The kids were wearing rags! But, what shocked me the most was that little shack in their back yard, supposedly it was their "out house" in other words "Letrina". This in the U.S. in the 21st Century? Believe me, I was shocked beyond imagination!
There a large number of communities in the "Ultra-Rich" US where the population hauls their garbage to be burnt/incenerated. Also there are many other places where you will see unpainted, tin-roofed, termite ridden abodes with the patents and children in "rags". These people are uneducated, debt ridden, and poor as "churchmice" and subsist on "daily bread" type wages because they didn't, were unable to provide themselves with the education, job experience/training to better themselves in the economic system.
You'll find these people in almost every community in the US.
Why??? Well socialologist have been trying to answer that question for a very long time. These are the "disadvangaged" population in "the land of plenty".
SH** Happens.
I wish I knew the answer.
Texas Bill
You'll find these people in almost every community in the US.
Why??? Well socialologist have been trying to answer that question for a very long time. These are the "disadvangaged" population in "the land of plenty".
SH** Happens.
I wish I knew the answer.
Texas Bill
believe it!!!!
i was in a town in Kentucky, specifically Litt Carr, Kentucky. poverty beyond belief. LItt Carr was a coal mining town when they ran out of coal they ran out of everything. apparently west virginia is worse (Hatfield and the McCoys were real). Parts of Louisana are just as bad or worse.
Nal0whs said:
i was in a town in Kentucky, specifically Litt Carr, Kentucky. poverty beyond belief. LItt Carr was a coal mining town when they ran out of coal they ran out of everything. apparently west virginia is worse (Hatfield and the McCoys were real). Parts of Louisana are just as bad or worse.
It does not matter where we look
Colinas in South Texas paralleling 3rd world
Appalachia, West VA poor depressed coal mining town
St. Louis, Missouri (yes, I've been there)
NAtive American reservations (been there too)
all does not compare on per capita terms to what is experienced in DR/Haiti.
The problem still have access to opportunity if they chose to leave their hometowns. This is what I mean by living in a bubble. This is not the case in DR in marginal terms. The improvement of moving to the capital is minimal in DR (when compared to the US). It doesn't matter how hard you try depending on who you are, what you look like, who you know, where your are from, etc. You can't get through the "oligarchical ceiling" that exists. Even if nothing can be put on you, people are liable to make something up!
D
Colinas in South Texas paralleling 3rd world
Appalachia, West VA poor depressed coal mining town
St. Louis, Missouri (yes, I've been there)
NAtive American reservations (been there too)
all does not compare on per capita terms to what is experienced in DR/Haiti.
The problem still have access to opportunity if they chose to leave their hometowns. This is what I mean by living in a bubble. This is not the case in DR in marginal terms. The improvement of moving to the capital is minimal in DR (when compared to the US). It doesn't matter how hard you try depending on who you are, what you look like, who you know, where your are from, etc. You can't get through the "oligarchical ceiling" that exists. Even if nothing can be put on you, people are liable to make something up!
D
stewart said:
That's not true. Anyone can make it in the DR. It's just that it takes twice the effort to achieve one's goal in the DR than in the states. The DR is not a place for people that are even mildly lazy, you have to constantly be on your toes. Of course, the attitude of many folks is why bother when I can get into the U.S. illegally and live easier by just enrolling in welfare or something. Many say they will go to the U.S. to work, but once they realized that El Dorado doesn't exist, its to the government assistance office that they go to pick up their checks. In order to make in the DR, you need to really really want it, end of story.
I think that many of you talk as if everybody came from the same mold and the same economic and educational background. Why do many of you have such a myopic view of seeing the world.
If you are born into a family who falls under a poor class, chances are the family will generationally live under that condition and it will be very difficult to move up out of it. Same with an Elite family. Chances are you will stay well educated and financially sound. Thats the nature of a class society.
Its like a race, if you are not prepared to run that race, you are more likly to lose. You cannot expect a child born into a poor family with the values and education and influence of that poor family and the community in which they can afford to live, and put that child on the starting line and say, "ok, you have an opportunity now."
But you get comments from posters like
"The problem still have access to opportunity if they chose to leave their hometowns. This is what I mean by living in a bubble"
If everyone was born lucky in a well-to-do household their chances are great. I KNOW THERE ARE CASES WHERE THOSE SUCCEED FROM POOR HOMES, but there is a less likely hood that this will happen and statistical data shows that, so don't throw in any anecdotal Evidence(sp) to support your argument.
One thing in DR that won't happen is the elite class willing to uplift the majority of their people out of poverty. THAT WONT HAPPEN. Why because we get some people yelling socialism or something else extreme and it is much easier to say its the poor peoples fault for living in the conditions they created.
If you are born into a family who falls under a poor class, chances are the family will generationally live under that condition and it will be very difficult to move up out of it. Same with an Elite family. Chances are you will stay well educated and financially sound. Thats the nature of a class society.
Its like a race, if you are not prepared to run that race, you are more likly to lose. You cannot expect a child born into a poor family with the values and education and influence of that poor family and the community in which they can afford to live, and put that child on the starting line and say, "ok, you have an opportunity now."
But you get comments from posters like
"The problem still have access to opportunity if they chose to leave their hometowns. This is what I mean by living in a bubble"
If everyone was born lucky in a well-to-do household their chances are great. I KNOW THERE ARE CASES WHERE THOSE SUCCEED FROM POOR HOMES, but there is a less likely hood that this will happen and statistical data shows that, so don't throw in any anecdotal Evidence(sp) to support your argument.
One thing in DR that won't happen is the elite class willing to uplift the majority of their people out of poverty. THAT WONT HAPPEN. Why because we get some people yelling socialism or something else extreme and it is much easier to say its the poor peoples fault for living in the conditions they created.
sancochojoe said:
I agree with you Sancochojoe. The circumstances you discribe can be said of all developed nations as well. We are not born on equal footing. Some are born to privilege. Others to poverty. It is very difficult to break the pattern of poverty that exists in the DR. What bothers me is that so many people are willing to accept sweat shop jobs and wages to go to work in the Zona Franca. And then the government thinks they are doing the people a favor by making deals like CAFTA. Most of these factories are owned by foreign companies that export the earnings back to their countries of origen. Like China, Korea US etc. There will never be financial progress on an individual level til people buck thins tradition and look for another way.
I can offer anecdotal evidence of success. But I understand that it doesn't prove the argument either way. However, each of those stories has the same formula. Someone took a chance on themselves, gambled and won. And didn't wait for the government or another rich benefactor to hold their hand. And there are myriad possibilities for that kind of success in the DR. But one has to be willing to gamble and work hard.
Being a permanent resident on welfare is no longer an option in the US. People who are making it seem lake Dominicans are on "the system" are just plain uninformed.
Sancochojoe you quoted me. Okay I agree with you on the starting line analogy in the US and the possibility to make it in DR are slim to none. I have seen the data, shoot I've created some of the data so yes I know. But my living in the bubble theory is real as well. This is why programs that pull kids out of their environs are so critical. This is why programs that help inner city Dominican kids to compensate for the lack of education of their poor parents who come from DR (and had to leave in order to survive) are so imperative for our growth as a community in the states. When you take an inner city kid to a golf tornament, to the NYSE, to go camping, to see an ivy league institution, to the suburbs, to a boarding school (through prep-for-prep or ABC), to Washington DC to be part of the political process etc. you are pulling these kids away from seeing the jodedores in the corner (that come from DR with this mentality). These kids that are surrounded by mainly DR-born pushers, users, hustlers, tricksters are bound to make these individuals their role models unless we do something to change it. Unless we educate their parents to get more involved HERE in the states. And when you talk to these kids, you make them believe and feel that they are capable and able to be in any of these places that are outside of their 10 block/mile radius. This is what I mean by pulling someone out of a bubble. The same applies to a rural white person in South Dakota. Much is about exposure.
My question to you is this: Would YOU and your family have been able to accomplish what you have, had you/they remained in DR? Be honest. Like you said the elite class would not have permitted it. I am not screaming anything extreme. I just practise what I preach. I am working to make my vision happen and help Dominicans here in the US.
D
Sancochojoe you quoted me. Okay I agree with you on the starting line analogy in the US and the possibility to make it in DR are slim to none. I have seen the data, shoot I've created some of the data so yes I know. But my living in the bubble theory is real as well. This is why programs that pull kids out of their environs are so critical. This is why programs that help inner city Dominican kids to compensate for the lack of education of their poor parents who come from DR (and had to leave in order to survive) are so imperative for our growth as a community in the states. When you take an inner city kid to a golf tornament, to the NYSE, to go camping, to see an ivy league institution, to the suburbs, to a boarding school (through prep-for-prep or ABC), to Washington DC to be part of the political process etc. you are pulling these kids away from seeing the jodedores in the corner (that come from DR with this mentality). These kids that are surrounded by mainly DR-born pushers, users, hustlers, tricksters are bound to make these individuals their role models unless we do something to change it. Unless we educate their parents to get more involved HERE in the states. And when you talk to these kids, you make them believe and feel that they are capable and able to be in any of these places that are outside of their 10 block/mile radius. This is what I mean by pulling someone out of a bubble. The same applies to a rural white person in South Dakota. Much is about exposure.
My question to you is this: Would YOU and your family have been able to accomplish what you have, had you/they remained in DR? Be honest. Like you said the elite class would not have permitted it. I am not screaming anything extreme. I just practise what I preach. I am working to make my vision happen and help Dominicans here in the US.
D
sancochojoe said:
So tell me how is it that so many Dominicans are able to own colmados and ferreteria stores and go "conchando"? I thought the elites did not allow low income dominicans to prosper?
Could it be that many poor dominicans simply pass up opportunities. There are many poor Dominicans that are given free education from 1st grade all the way up to college at the University of Santo Domingo free of charge (except for the books and uniforms) and many Dominicans simply opt to quit school. Is that the elite preventing them?
Don't hate the elite for being wealthy and successful! Hate the poor's attitude at not taking a chance when the opportunity comes knocking. Now, I know not every poor Dominican kid has an opportunity to go to school, but those that do go don't make much of it and quite frankly, the rich folks have nothing to do with that.
Could it be that many poor dominicans simply pass up opportunities. There are many poor Dominicans that are given free education from 1st grade all the way up to college at the University of Santo Domingo free of charge (except for the books and uniforms) and many Dominicans simply opt to quit school. Is that the elite preventing them?
Don't hate the elite for being wealthy and successful! Hate the poor's attitude at not taking a chance when the opportunity comes knocking. Now, I know not every poor Dominican kid has an opportunity to go to school, but those that do go don't make much of it and quite frankly, the rich folks have nothing to do with that.
It's unofficial but it's real. Many things move in DR via highly closed circles.
Even if you have money it is difficult to enter these elite circles (assuming you money is completely legitimate). People can very well try to destroy you with their tongue. You can look at the evolution of some boards here and see some of the hatred that that is typically spewed. Separatist classist junk is spewed all the time. The marginal improvement you can make in your life in DR is minimal. Plus there de facto accepted cultural habits that also work to sustain this low level of achievement (e.g. men having multiple families they don't support). Of course there are expections to everything like most posters like to say here, but on average this is what I see and here.
D
Even if you have money it is difficult to enter these elite circles (assuming you money is completely legitimate). People can very well try to destroy you with their tongue. You can look at the evolution of some boards here and see some of the hatred that that is typically spewed. Separatist classist junk is spewed all the time. The marginal improvement you can make in your life in DR is minimal. Plus there de facto accepted cultural habits that also work to sustain this low level of achievement (e.g. men having multiple families they don't support). Of course there are expections to everything like most posters like to say here, but on average this is what I see and here.
D
stewart said:
The poor dominicans can prosper marginally as long as they are not a threat to the oligarchy. Once this is the case someone is going down. You can only desire to prosper when you see real opportunities. What worth is it to have a college degree and no last name (ie an elite family/gov't party) to get your foot in the door or speak on your behalf or to provide you with the necessary capital you need to start something on your own?
deelt said:
I disagree with your logic. And I think it comes down to a definition of success in the DR. Anybody can create success and wealth there even from humble beginnings. Whether they are then accepted into elitist circles after acheiving said success is in my opinion irrelevant. Based on those merits, you are probably right. I simply reject your definition of success.
Stewart, you can disagree that is your right. I am completely comfortable with that. I do hope I am wrong. But question to you, if in fact people can make it why don't most? My take is you can only have true aspirations when you see and feel real opportunity. That is not observed in DR. If you do study but have no connections or capital to get your foot in the door the degree is not worth much.
I reiterate: People can prosper as long as they are not a threat to the established oligarchy. Why should this matter? Because it is about access to power and true policy change. This is why clean politics is such a challenge its a rotating oligarchy that shifts parties when threaten. This is the same reason wealthy classes are threatened by v. well educated Dominicans from the US from poor backgrounds. They even have slurs for classification purposes, (eg dominicanyorks).
Isolated cases of what you measure as happiness (although ideal) are not enough to create the needed more all-encompassing change demanded country-wide.
I reiterate: People can prosper as long as they are not a threat to the established oligarchy. Why should this matter? Because it is about access to power and true policy change. This is why clean politics is such a challenge its a rotating oligarchy that shifts parties when threaten. This is the same reason wealthy classes are threatened by v. well educated Dominicans from the US from poor backgrounds. They even have slurs for classification purposes, (eg dominicanyorks).
Isolated cases of what you measure as happiness (although ideal) are not enough to create the needed more all-encompassing change demanded country-wide.
stewart said:
Nal0whs said:
First I must ask how do you know the person owning the colmadoes and fereteria stores are poor. They could be from middle income or Dominicans returning from the states to come back and open up a shop. It could be many reasons. I can't assume. I have no data to show and neither do you so its all an assumption.
I'm not hating the elite. Much of that elite status is from "old money" so many were born with that inheritence and as I stated before are much more well prepared when stepping up to the starting line in the world of competition. I'm just stating the advantage they are given and have assumed. You cannot take that away from them unless they blow it all.
You claim Dominicans have an opportunity of free education, but there are posters here who can argue the fact that the quality of education is in one word, TERRIBLE. The elite can determine the level of education of their people and their country if they so choose but are not obligated to do so and would they individually feel it is in their best interest. But it sounds to me as if you are placing all the burden on that young 1st grader to rise up and take charge of his life. Is that really how you see it. Life successes is not just what you find in the public school system. You have to have family support who are living under poverty. You have the community influence within that poor environment. You have every negative aspect of being born under poverty yet you expect to place the burden on that child. Only and I repeat only can someone on the outside can supplement the well being of that child if his environment cannot provide that stimulation It also must be consistent from child to adulthood, not just a 1 hour after school program. His ability to succeed has to be stimulated throughout his youth and nothing negative can destract him from that. He would need the influence of a business owner to give him the since of entrepreneurship, the influence of an educated person or educator to instill the value of an education. The influence of an elder to instill respect towards others. The influence of religion or a moral leader to instill a since of civility and morality. A respectable male to instill a since of strength and respect towards the opposite sex. A strong female to instill love and compassion for others. Need I go on. Mind you this is for one child. Even this does not guarantee this child would rise up into a status of wealth or self reliance because once he reaches the age of comprehension, he needs to know how to enterpret the support that has been provided into his life that his family could not do. Even though it sounds like a lot, many people who are very well rounded with a strong foundation in their life can account for their success in life because of infuential people in their life. It can just be one person that keeps him on the straight and narrow but it must be consistent.
What seperates the elite child from a child I described is that everthing will be provided all at once but with more focus on the idea that money dictates everything in what you do in life. When educationg the child about business, instead of telling him how to start a business there will be more focus on how to maintain a business, or even without telling him he is in a home with that type of exposure where it may just rub onto him. Thats an advantage in itself. The child is not required to qualify for the best schools, because the best schools has a slot waiting for him do to family influence and funding. The child will have one-on-one tutoring or if the child is upper middle class he will go to a private school. In DR, that is a huge difference given the history of public schools.
My point is again living in poverty in DR provides a whole bunch more of negatives in preparing a positive young youth in todays society. The idea for you to say "All they have to do is ........and everything will be A-OK is obsurded and like I said before "Myopic".
elite, upper, middle and poor classes will always exist. We also know the advantages and disadvantages within the classes. We know who has the greatest likelyhood of having the best education, the business connections, the exposure to positive stimuation, the sense of safety and well being. But we also know the likely hood for success if born in a crime, unsafe, maleducated environment. We know this. The idea that everyone is on the same playing field goes the show the amount of ignorance some people have in how they see the world.
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deelt said:
I think we need to divide your statement to 2 parts
First: If anyone can succeed, why is it that most people don't?
I don't think this is a situation unique to DR. There are poor people in every country just as there are wealthy people. I agree completely with you that many in the poorer classes don't carry the sense of hope that creates oportunities or motivates them to take an opportuinity when it comes. Poverty is a cast iron bitch. THere is a cycle of poverty that can be passed from generation to generation. But all it takes in a free country (like the DR), is one person with an idea. Even a simple one. To break that cycle. I know a guy that was poor and uneducated that started selling oranges at the paradas en Navarrette. Pretty soon he was selling beer and rum too. That grew to a colmado, which grew to a store which grew to a couple. Add some rental properties to that and we have a perfect success story. What was his initial investment? Nil. Education? Nil. Great idea? Nope.
It can be done. Convincing the poor and the desperate that it can be done is a different story.
Secondly: I hope I am reading you wrong about this one. It sounds like you are implying that there is a glass cieling. That a person can only rise so far in Dominican society before that man imposes limitations. I have never seen any indication of that. Iwill concede your point that without the right connections, it is nearly impossible to get a business loan or a high paying position at the bank. Hispanic culture oozes that idea. Just watch any novela.
What I am saying, is that anybody can make it if they really want to. Without large amounts of wenture capital. And with that, I have come full circle.