Spoiled kids, faulty parents.

[Rick Snyder]

My 2 cents worth

Everyone in this world has the obligation to live. A baby/child is unable to live without someone supplying those things needed to survive, ie., food, shelter etc. So from day one life is a process of learning and teaching. What you teach and how you teach it usually determines how others learn and live. Society as a whole has determined that not everyone has teaches or has learned the best way to live so rules and laws are established as guideposts as to how life should be lived. Society has also determined that not living by these rules and laws requires a consequence and therefore punishment. What punishment is applied and the consistency of that punishment usually determines if society at large learns the benefits of living by the rules and laws that are in place. All punishment is a means of control through fear. If the rules and laws are rigorously enforced then you fear the possibility of repeating the grade if you fail to study, attend and do your schoolwork. You fear the possibility of losing your job if you fail to show up at work on time. You fear the fine that is levied for throwing litter. You fear the time required behind bars for robbing a bank. Most people in a civilized society obey the rules and laws because of the possible punishment if they deviate from those set standards. Then again there are those that live on those fears and push the possibility of getting caught to the limits. There are also those that operate when FURIOUS which is a state in which the brain becomes disconnected from the mouth and or muscles of the body. All to say that not everyone is the same and the same is true with children.
The instrinsic worth of a spanking in the teaching of a child between that which is right to that which is wrong has always been endemic in the punishment of children. The reason that a number, not all, of the psychologists now have an abhorrent opinion of spanking as a means of punishment is because so many parents through the years have derogated from what a spanking should consist of. As this is such a touchy subject the bureaucratic omnipotents have decided to rule this method of punishment as barbaric rather than adduce a proper implementation of a spanking. It is because of the actions of so many maladroit parents in their inability to distinguish the difference between a spanking, beating or whipping that have caused the lack of ratiocination in some of the posts in this thread.
There never has been or will be a school for being a proper parent because of the varied opinions as to what is a proper parent and the varied opinions concerning punishment or lack thereof. If people could concur on these issues then there could be a fortuitous construction of such a school.
Concerning the teachings of the Dominican children here it has been my experience that the majority of the Dominicans teach virtually nothing good to their children. The major item is their failure to teach respect for other people, animals and property. There is also the failure to teach honesty. As to punishment in this country it is virtually non-existent in any form starting from the parent to the government. A parent here at times will get overwhelmed by the misbehaving of their child that they will go into that state of FURIOUS (see above). In this state anything they say or do is not punishment it is in fact abuse. We could go on forever as to what the Dominicans failed to teach their children but that would be useless as the majority of the adults are not in any position to teach anything to anyone.
The major problem with punishment is that a lot of people don?t know when, why or how to apply it and their failure to be CONSISTANT. To me punishment is a tool to be used in helping me to teach my son what is right and wrong. The form of punishment I use is determined by the infraction committed. Besides teaching right from wrong I have set up rules that are to be followed at all times and this is not to my being a despot but rather to the fact that I want him to be safe and grow up to be an adult. An example is when my son was 2 ? and he ventured out towards the dirt roadway and I grabbed him and explained why he couldn?t go there. The second time this happened I grabbed him and spanked him on the bottom one time and said no and explained. About 2 weeks later he tried it again and I quickly grabbed and spanked with no explanation. He didn?t test me again for about 2 months. When he turned 5 and acquired more freedom I taught him to stop before entering the street and look left then right first. I only had to punish him twice for not looking. Now at the age of 7 he always looks first as it has become a habit. Do I regret having spanked my son, no and I never enjoyed it but I knew it was a tool that had to be used. This same routine has been used for coming when called, biting other children, spitting at other children and using foul language. The first time is always with an explanation but after that it is a consistent and swift smack on the butt. Taking away the TV seems to work for all other situations but time out never works because of his imagination. Yelling is something I don?t do or allow and my son is always called by his name John and NEVER co?o. He is told at least once EVERY day that he is hansome, smart and that I love him. I never spank him more than once and always on the butt only and never in anger (furious). Having explained my philosophy how many myopic people out there think my actions by spanking are incivility?

 

[sjh]

My very difficult energtic son changed his behavior from defiant brat no one could tolerate (including his parents and grandparents) to an obedient repectful child in a matter of a month when he knew he was going to get punished if he misbehaved..

I do not spank children for making messes, not sitting still, accidents and so forth. I do spank for willful and persistant disobedience, talking back, and injuring others. A spanking should not be the only form of punishment.

timeouts dont work with all kids. Assuming you can get them to go stand in the corner with out them running away, some kids will never ever quit or back down. send some kids on a time out and they will sit there calling you names, spitting, whatever for hours. try having a good rational talk with a little ball of screaming spitting muscle, kicking, punching and bitting. see where that gets you. . Sure, lock them a room and listen to them scream for 6 to 7 hours. that really works too.

pull out the belt, explain what they did wrong, tell them the result of their action, Tell them you love them, then give them what they asked for.

next time you see them doing something wrong you warn them that that offence will result in a spanking. if they persist in doing it, give them another. They figure out pretty quick that you are serious about the rules and toe the line.

 

[sjh]

Rick Snyder: exactly my thoughts on the subject. well said!!

 

[trina]

I think many posters, who obviously have so many varying and valid opinions, have stated so many things, so well. I find myself agreeing (not for the first time) with everything Ccccccccccccc and Larry said.

Let me just add that the crime should fit the punishment. I sometimes find myself getting upset with our kids, and have learned (maybe the hard way!) to walk away and think about it before responding. Our oldest has many problems relative to being abandoned by his birth mother and abused in every way by her and her family...having such great parents myself in comparison, I find it hard to put myself in his position, but try to think about it all the time. I used to fly off the handle and inflict punishments like "YOU'RE NOT PLAYING OUTSIDE FOR ONE WEEK!!!" Well, that only drove myself crazy with him inside, begging to go outside - it accomplished absolutely nothing, because by mid-week, I would realize how stupid the punishment was and take it back. Now, we use more effective tools: one is a good-behavior chart, in which he earns chips by doing things without being told. For instance: cleaning his room, watching and playing with his little brother, taking out the garbage, doing well in school, bringing me books to help him read (something he detests), helping with dishes and household chores. After he has earned 5 chips, he gets to do something he likes, like rent a movie, go swimming, have a sleepover, play his Nintendo, etc. Alternatively, when he does something bad, a white chip is replaced by a red chip, and he has to replace a red chip with 2 whites. What a change we've seen in him resulting from this. He realizes that good behavior is rewarded, and bad behavior will cost him.

We also have a chart at home, that distinctly outlines punishments for bad behavior. He knows what to expect if he does something bad, and therefore, is less motivated to do it. Of course, it's not always realistic, because we can't predict bad things he may do, but at least it's a guideline.

We used to have a big problem (and sometimes still do, he is 10, and I think that's an age where kids go through a "lying phase") with our son lying to us. He quickly learned what soap tastes like, and he also learned that no matter what he does, the punishment will be much more excessive if he lies rather than just tells us the truth in the beginning.

Today, we had to punish him, and after sending him to his room, I talked to him. I told him how much I love him, but I didn't like what he did. He said to me, "I know you love me like I'm your own son, and I know that what you do is for my own good." Well, that brought tears to my eyes! He is learning!!! I just wish we would've had him with us at an earlier age than 7 - he wouldn't have suffered nearly as much in life.

 

[Larry]

To Rick Snyder: My future household will be a family and not a police state.


Aside from that, I am on a cruise ship and paying 50 cents per minute to be involved in this discussion but have repeatedly come back to the computer because I think the topic is so very important. However, there is food to eat and booze to drink so I will not be checking back until tomorrow night when I get home but I am really looking forward to it because I feel this is one of the more important threads I have been involved in for a long time. Good night everyone.

Larry

 

[bob saunders]

Everyone in this world has the obligation to live. A baby/child is unable to live without someone supplying those things needed to survive, ie., food, shelter etc. So from day one life is a process of learning and teaching. What you teach and how you teach it usually determines how others learn and live. Society as a whole has determined that not everyone has teaches or has learned the best way to live so rules and laws are established as guideposts as to how life should be lived. Society has also determined that not living by these rules and laws requires a consequence and therefore punishment. What punishment is applied and the consistency of that punishment usually determines if society at large learns the benefits of living by the rules and laws that are in place. All punishment is a means of control through fear. If the rules and laws are rigorously enforced then you fear the possibility of repeating the grade if you fail to study, attend and do your schoolwork. You fear the possibility of losing your job if you fail to show up at work on time. You fear the fine that is levied for throwing litter. You fear the time required behind bars for robbing a bank. Most people in a civilized society obey the rules and laws because of the possible punishment if they deviate from those set standards. Then again there are those that live on those fears and push the possibility of getting caught to the limits. There are also those that operate when FURIOUS which is a state in which the brain becomes disconnected from the mouth and or muscles of the body. All to say that not everyone is the same and the same is true with children.
The instrinsic worth of a spanking in the teaching of a child between that which is right to that which is wrong has always been endemic in the punishment of children. The reason that a number, not all, of the psychologists now have an abhorrent opinion of spanking as a means of punishment is because so many parents through the years have derogated from what a spanking should consist of. As this is such a touchy subject the bureaucratic omnipotents have decided to rule this method of punishment as barbaric rather than adduce a proper implementation of a spanking. It is because of the actions of so many maladroit parents in their inability to distinguish the difference between a spanking, beating or whipping that have caused the lack of ratiocination in some of the posts in this thread.
There never has been or will be a school for being a proper parent because of the varied opinions as to what is a proper parent and the varied opinions concerning punishment or lack thereof. If people could concur on these issues then there could be a fortuitous construction of such a school.
Concerning the teachings of the Dominican children here it has been my experience that the majority of the Dominicans teach virtually nothing good to their children. The major item is their failure to teach respect for other people, animals and property. There is also the failure to teach honesty. As to punishment in this country it is virtually non-existent in any form starting from the parent to the government. A parent here at times will get overwhelmed by the misbehaving of their child that they will go into that state of FURIOUS (see above). In this state anything they say or do is not punishment it is in fact abuse. We could go on forever as to what the Dominicans failed to teach their children but that would be useless as the majority of the adults are not in any position to teach anything to anyone.
The major problem with punishment is that a lot of people don?t know when, why or how to apply it and their failure to be CONSISTANT. To me punishment is a tool to be used in helping me to teach my son what is right and wrong. The form of punishment I use is determined by the infraction committed. Besides teaching right from wrong I have set up rules that are to be followed at all times and this is not to my being a despot but rather to the fact that I want him to be safe and grow up to be an adult. An example is when my son was 2 ? and he ventured out towards the dirt roadway and I grabbed him and explained why he couldn?t go there. The second time this happened I grabbed him and spanked him on the bottom one time and said no and explained. About 2 weeks later he tried it again and I quickly grabbed and spanked with no explanation. He didn?t test me again for about 2 months. When he turned 5 and acquired more freedom I taught him to stop before entering the street and look left then right first. I only had to punish him twice for not looking. Now at the age of 7 he always looks first as it has become a habit. Do I regret having spanked my son, no and I never enjoyed it but I knew it was a tool that had to be used. This same routine has been used for coming when called, biting other children, spitting at other children and using foul language. The first time is always with an explanation but after that it is a consistent and swift smack on the butt. Taking away the TV seems to work for all other situations but time out never works because of his imagination. Yelling is something I don?t do or allow and my son is always called by his name John and NEVER co?o. He is told at least once EVERY day that he is hansome, smart and that I love him. I never spank him more than once and always on the butt only and never in anger (furious). Having explained my philosophy how many myopic people out there think my actions by spanking are incivility?

I take a very simular approach with my children and now that they are teenagers many adults have remarked to me how pleasant and polite my children are. I haven't had to resort to Physical punishment since they were 7-8 years old. My stepson(Dominican) has never been spanked by either his mom or me and for the first year that he lived in Canada he didn't change some anoying behavior so I left to the older boys to straighten him out. Without physical punishment, the boys got the message through to him that his bad behavior wouldn't be tolerated. As far as Dominicans disiplining children, my wife tolerates no misbehavior in her school, and she has a tonque like a rapier. I think most of the children would prefer a spanking than a dressing down from her.

 

[Chirimoya]

my son is always called by his name John and NEVER co?o.

A topic in itself - the language used with, and in the presence of, children. My next-door-neighbour-from-hell has a baby and a toddler, and for all I know she named them 'co?o' and 'carajo' because those are just about the only words I hear her using to address them.

Maybe we should suggest them on the baby names thread?

 

[sjh]

you forgot diablo


lots of kids name "Cono Diablo Carajo" here. sometimes two or three in the same family

 

[Pib]

A topic in itself - the language used with, and in the presence of, children. My next-door-neighbour-from-hell has a baby and a toddler, and for all I know she named them 'co?o' and 'carajo' because those are just about the only words I hear her using to address them.

Maybe we should suggest them on the baby names thread?

"?Co?o, no digas malas palabras!" Heh!

 

[xamaicano]

It's a slippery slope. Once you've establish hitting as a means of punishment what do you when child gets older and that is still the only form of punishment he will respond to, what works at two isn't going to work at 10.

anyone who cant see the differnce between a beating and a spanking should not be allowed to have children..

 

[xamaicano]

It wasn't common in my culture either and we had corporal punishment in our schools. The problem with this kind of punishment is that when the kid develops a tolerance the adult has to up the ante or the punishment become ineffective. For instance, in the 7th grade we would get two strikes from a cane for a certain infraction. The first time it hurt like hell, but after while the canings were just the cost of doing business. The only way this punishment could continue to be effective was to increase the intensity. The problem is, how far is too far.

In my culture, one can never imagine raising his hands on parents. My father could slap me 100 times, I would never have the courage to raise my hands on him. I remember, My parents never beat me but he did yell at me numerous times, maybe a slap here or there but I don't remember. I was shocked to see in school, kids talking back to teachers. In pakistan, if you did that, you would have gotten your butt kicked by teachers. That was in early 70's. Times sure have changed.
AZB

 

[Mirador]

let's get this thread back on track...

OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Two boys were arrested for making pencil-and-crayon stick figure drawings depicting a 10-year-old classmate being stabbed and hung, police said. The children, charged with a felony, were taken from school in handcuffs.

The 9- and 10-year-old boys were arrested Monday and charged with making a written threat to kill or harm another person. They were also suspended from school.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/26/drawings.arrests.ap/index.html

 

[Larry]

OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Two boys were arrested for making pencil-and-crayon stick figure drawings depicting a 10-year-old classmate being stabbed and hung, police said. The children, charged with a felony, were taken from school in handcuffs.

The 9- and 10-year-old boys were arrested Monday and charged with making a written threat to kill or harm another person. They were also suspended from school.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/26/drawings.arrests.ap/index.html

This has nothing to do with this thread or the Dominican republic.

Larry

 

[Mirador]

This has nothing to do with this thread or the Dominican republic.

More than you would suspect...It so happens that these situations arise because the authority of parents over their children has been undermined by the State, to the extent that schools don't dare punish, so they call the police.

Here's a recent story. My four year old Aroa walked in the door crying. I asked his two sisters, Alex and Angela, twelve and ten years old, what had happened. They said a five year old neighbor girl asked Aroa to pull down his pants and turn around, which he did, and then the girl proceeded to bite his buttocks, leaving her teeth mark.
Now, what would a 'faulty' parent do. There seems to be at least three obvious possibilities:
1) do nothing;
2) confront the girl's parent about their daughter's behavior;
3) talk to Aroa and make it clear that it's ok to defend himself, even violently if called for; or
4) go to the police and file a 'sexual assault' complaint against the five year old.
My recourse was number (3).
Weeks later, the girl 'assaulted' Aroa again, this time he floored her with a punch. I asked him what did he do when the girl's father came out and asked who had punched her daughter. Aroa just beamed with a big grin. I gave Aroa a pat in the back with a 'way to go, boy!

Mirador

 

[Larry]

More than you would suspect...It so happens that these situations arise because the authority of parents over their children has been undermined by the State, to the extent that schools don't dare punish, so they call the police.

Here's a recent story. My four year old Aroa walked in the door crying. I asked his two sisters, Alex and Angela, twelve and ten years old, what had happened. They said a five year old neighbor girl asked Aroa to pull down his pants and turn around, which he did, and then the girl proceeded to bite his buttocks, leaving her teeth mark.
Now, what would a 'faulty' parent do. There seems to be at least three obvious possibilities:
1) do nothing;
2) confront the girl's parent about their daughter's behavior;
3) talk to Aroa and make it clear that it's ok to defend himself, even violently if called for; or
4) go to the police and file a 'sexual assault' complaint against the five year old.
My recourse was number (3).
Weeks later, the girl 'assaulted' Aroa again, this time he floored her with a punch. I asked him what did he do when the girl's father came out and asked who had punched her daughter. Aroa just beamed with a big grin. I gave Aroa a pat in the back with a 'way to go, boy!

Mirador

I don't agree with you that schools have to resort to calling the police. When I was a child it was called "detention" (being kept after school as punishment). If detention didn't work, then the childs parents were notified that their child was misbehaving. You are insinuating that schools can no longer dicipline kids....they always could and still can. They just cannot hit children. They never were supposed to. I don't agree with the schools calling the police. Teachers hitting children is one extreme....teachers refusing to do anything and picking up the phone to call police is the other. The teachers have to find a happy medium. They are authority figures. They have to figure out how to dicipline children the right way. That is part of their job.

With regards to the situation with your son, I would have:

1) Talked to the girls parents to let them know what happened. I would expect them in turn to talk to their daughter ( but of course, I would have no control over that), and..

2) additionally and more importantly, I would talk to my son. I would explain to him that his pulling his pants down and allowing her to bite him was wrong. I would explain that she was wrong in doing it but he was wrong in allowing it to happen. I would tell him that in the future, if she attacked him in any way, to defend himself. If she bites you, bite her back. Makes no difference that she is a girl.

Children, especially boys, have to be taught at an early age no to let other children push them around.

Larry

 

[Mirador]

I don't agree with you that schools have to resort to calling the police.

This is the opposite of my message. The increasing disenfranchisement of both parents and schools regarding the disciplining of children, and the consequent criminalizing of children behavior is distorting the workings of a society to the point of decomposition. It's no wonder that the US has the highest rate of population behind bars, now approaching 2.5 million prisoners. What I'm seing is the 'rehabilitation industry' taking over the task of parents and the family.

Mirador

 

[Criss Colon]

This is the opposite of my message. The increasing disenfranchisement of both parents and schools regarding the disciplining of children, and the consequent criminalizing of children behavior is distorting the workings of a society to the point of decomposition. It's no wonder that the US has the highest rate of population behind bars, now approaching 2.5 million prisoners. What I'm seing is the 'rehabilitation industry' taking over the task of parents and the family.

Mirador

Mirador,Why do you feel the need to make so many posts regarding what is going on in the United States???
It is confusing.I never know if your comments are DR related,or more about the US. Why not stick with the guidelines of DR1, and make all of your posts "DR RELATED"!!
If you are Dominican, I can understand.Dominicans NEVER like to discuss,or acknowledge, the existence of problems in their "Motherland"!!

 

[Larry]

This is the opposite of my message. The increasing disenfranchisement of both parents and schools regarding the disciplining of children, and the consequent criminalizing of children behavior is distorting the workings of a society to the point of decomposition. It's no wonder that the US has the highest rate of population behind bars, now approaching 2.5 million prisoners. What I'm seing is the 'rehabilitation industry' taking over the task of parents and the family.

Mirador

You want to know why schools call the police on children nowadays? It is because so many children have come home over the years and complained to their parents that teachers hit them. As we have evolved as a society and so many parents now recognize that physical dicipline is wrong, those same parents have come to the schools and said, "do NOT hit my child". The problem is that some of the teachers, just like some abusive parents, do not understand that there are better, more creative, more constructive ways to dicipline children than wrapping their knuckles or grabbing their ears. The schools, recognizing that some of their teachers fall into this sad category, tell the teachers to just " call the police". This relieves them of any responsibility and eliminates lawsuits and angry parents. This is a reflection of so many other areas of society today, where the weight of the pendulum had caused it to swing to far to the left. It is also a reflection of how, as people, we have abandoned the quality of fortitude and replaced it with taking the easy way out.

Larry

 

[Criss Colon]

"C-mon Larry"! DR Related????????????

:cross-eye

 

[Mirador]

Mirador,Why do you feel the need to make so many posts regarding what is going on in the United States???

But it Is DR related! don't you see we're going down the same route, and by looking inside that mirror, maybe we can avoid the same pitfalls? A few weeks ago on a local TV program a local law officer (fiscal) stated that it was considered child abuse to yell at your child, 'mira muchacho, tu te estas volviendo loco'. then the interviewer interjected amusingly and asked if it was oK to yell instead: 'mira chivo desquiciado, pero es que estas perdiendo el juicio'.

Mirador